Homophobia in football

[Mciahel Goodman]

There was a black guy singing both!!!
Do you think toure, drogba, adebayor were bothered?

That means literally nothing. A "black guy" and one or two footballers aren't representative of an entire ethnicity.

Do you mean the chants about Touré and Drogba? Yes. They're very offensive.

You need to look at the context of how a word is used. You'd (general you, if you'd like) say "You gay bastard" or "You big puff" when someone makes a mistake - would you ever use it in a positive context? "You gay genius!" I'm guessing not. You're giving the word 'gay' a negative - connotation? (sorry, my English is failing me) here.

Great point. The only thing that I'd add is that sometimes the negative connotation works as a replacement word for a different expletive. In the same way that someone might say "cnut" instead of "damn". But, still, a very good point.

 

[thisbe]

Point remains, we say "racism" has gone! If that is considered racism then it clearly hasn't and its rife at United games.?

Well - no, we don't. We don't say that. Racism is very much still an issue and most people are well aware of that. Some don't care, and will sing those chants.

Great point. The only thing that I'd add is that sometimes the negative connotation works as a replacement word for a different expletive. In the same way that someone might say "cnut" instead of "damn". But, still, a very good point.

True. The negative connotation remains, but yeah.

 

[Dans]

Its just banter!!!!! It wont ever go away!!!. Of course "you balck bastard" and monkey chants have gone. But they have only been replaced with "du du duuu drogba/toure's got ebola" and "your dad washed elephants". Is it really racist? Are the people who sing that racist? No. They are the same people who sing "he's big and he's black", the same people that adore(d) yorkey, cole, martial, rashford etc.

To this I would like to ask foreign fans to tell us whether similar types of abuse is handed out at games in their countries (obviously Russia and most Eastern European countries have known problems - society in those places is certainly less enlightened generally). I have the feeling not as much in other western european countries as in the UK. None of these chants are really acceptable and say a lot about the people who sing them at matches if you ask me.

I also want to take issue with football being a working class game - it clearly isn't any more. The remants of when it was are still with us though. We need to push on away from this though. My kid is 9 plays football and I wouldn't want him to hear such shite at games - it would paint football in a different light I think (assuming he understood what was being chanted of course!).

 

[Dans]

Do you mean the chants about Touré and Drogba? Yes. They're very offensive.

You need to look at the context of how a word is used. You'd (general you, if you'd like) say "You gay bastard" or "You big puff" when someone makes a mistake - would you ever use it in a positive context? "You gay genius!" I'm guessing not. You're giving the word 'gay' a negative - connotation? (sorry, my English is failing me) here.

Nailed it.

 

[jojose]

Do you mean the chants about Touré and Drogba? Yes. They're very offensive.

You need to look at the context of how a word is used. You'd (general you, if you'd like) say "You gay bastard" or "You big puff" when someone makes a mistake - would you ever use it in a positive context? "You gay genius!" I'm guessing not. You're giving the word 'gay' a negative - connotation? (sorry, my English is failing me) here.

No you wouldn't. Equally you wouldn't say "you fat / bald / ugly / Scottish genious".

So whilst I take your point and you are right. I am just debating what is actually homophobic, racist and offensive and what is acceptable levels of banter.

I am not racist, sexist or homophobic in anyway by the way and I don't condone those that are. Equally I think some people are too easily offended.

Again though, the racial, tribal, thing is still prevalent and always will be. also, to labour the point, "you (insert descriptive word of) bastard" is sang at every premier league game. It will be all this season, all next season and forever and a day.

 

[jojose]

Do you mean the chants about Touré and Drogba? Yes. They're very offensive.

You need to look at the context of how a word is used. You'd (general you, if you'd like) say "You gay bastard" or "You big puff" when someone makes a mistake - would you ever use it in a positive context? "You gay genius!" I'm guessing not. You're giving the word 'gay' a negative - connotation? (sorry, my English is failing me) here.

Just thought a little more about this and yeah actually. We do use "black" in a positive way.

"he's big and he's black he plays at the back, smaling of MUFC"

That's a positive with the black description. Smalling is big. He is black and he does play at the back. Is that racist?

So "he big and he's black and he plays at the back" is acceptable I take it?

Is "he's big and he's black and he's rubbish" is that racist?

 

[caisenma]

It's a way off yet, and I wouldn't want to be the first, or even tenth player to come out. It's a working man's game for the most part, and plenty on the terraces don't give a s*** about political correctness, homophobia or what you can and can't say. It's not right but tell that to the player when he's getting ridiculed in front of his family, friends and colleagues by thousands of fans.

If people will sing about tragic losses of life there's not a chance they'll keep quiet about someone being gay.

Ouch. I think you've just nailed it. It's completely ridiculous but then again Donald Trump is President.

A very sad state of affairs, but you're right in that I wouldn't feel like taking that sort of abuse either.

 

[SteveJ]

Harry Redknapp thinks that homophobia is N'Zogbia's neighbour.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That offer of a wall is still out there. Just saying...

 

[ivaldo]

It's amazing how being in a football stadium can have such a drastic effect on the moral compass of so many otherwise good natured men and women. I don't think the vast majority of football going fans really have anything against homosexual men (although there will still be a fair few that do), it would just be a handily available tool to unnerve opposition players with, which is a massive shame really.

 

[sokol11]

Just saw the mannequin challenge of the Portugal football squad and if I had to select one player that I think could be gay it's Ronaldo.

 

[The Brown Bull]

I absolutely love Fowler but did cringe a little when he done that to Le Saux. He has snorting the line antics against Everton made me laugh though.

To answer your question .

Stigma ?

Fowler's behaviour towards Le Saux was despicable and unforgivable .You cringed a little? Really?

 

[Kag]

I don't think the terraces are the major issue. The vast majority of people that attend football matches are fundamentally good people. The band of feckwits that seem to operate at the higher echelons of the game, however.

Brian Clough bullied a gay footballer that eventually decided to kill himself. Yet he's some sort of legend, apparently. John Fashanu, Justin's brother, was then paraded around as a television personality. This was a little while ago, but I'm not entirely sure whether or not attitudes will have changed.

 

[Sir A1ex]

The vast majority of people that attend football matches are fundamentally good people.

Vast majority maybe, but even a fairly small minority of 50,000+ people can be quite a large and vocal group. There's enough people who are prepared to sing about Munich / Hilsborough etc - I'm not sure they'd hold back on the chance to lay into a player for their sexuality.

 

[Kag]

Vast majority maybe, but even a fairly small minority of 50,000+ people can be quite a large and vocal group. There's enough people who are prepared to sing about Munich / Hilsborough etc - I'm not sure they'd hold back on the chance to lay into a player for their sexuality.

Sadly, you're right. But you live in hope, I suppose.

 

[Hammerfell]

This thread has been painful to read. Echo the comment aboout head bashing.

 

[Keegs]

Read an article about le saux and his abuse started with people making snide remarks about what he was wearing.People do this on the forum especially with Luke Shaw.

 

[Segment]

It is impossible to get rid of it. We like to think we can but we cant, much in the same way Racism/Islamaphobia/Anti-Semitism will still be a thing. We pick on people for being different

 

[Andy_Cole]

Obviously it's fine to be this. I guess players just keep it secret though because they still get hostile abuse from the crowd. The crowd try to pick on anything so will pick on that.

 

[DavelinaJolie]

The most common responses I see about athletes coming out as gay are either accepting it should be perfectly fine or the "Why do they have to come out? Keep their private lives to themselves" response.

To that second response, I'd say: because being gay or bisexual is still largely treated differently in the sports world and even among celebrities. If they don't come out the individuals then either have to go about their lives as secretly as possible to avoid exposure, or go about their lives normally and risk it becoming news. If a high paid premier league footballer was gay and openly going about in his business without "coming out" then certain segments of the media would likely consider that "news" and splash it all over the papers, which perpetuates the idea that being gay is something that is sensational or out of the ordinary and somewhat seedy. By coming out the individual gets to control how the information is released and in doing so can show that whilst it may be unique in this particular sphere to the point where they have to come out, it is also not something they are ashamed of and that it is, in fact, perfectly fine. It's about that individual being able to own and express part of themselves publicly and not having it stolen by people who will use it to sell copies as a bit of salacious gossip.

As for calling players poof or whatever for some imagined "soft" play. By doing so you are conflating being gay with being a wimp, or being soft, or lacking courage. You don't get to decide whether that is offensive because you haven't had those words hurled at you as a slur because of who you are. It boggles my mind that people still think that they should be able to determine what historically persecuted groups should find offensive.

I'm sorry if this sounds somewhat confrontational, but jeez...

 

[Manny]

There was a black guy singing both!!!
Do you think toure, drogba, adebayor were bothered?

Point remains, we say "racism" has gone! If that is considered racism then it clearly hasn't and its rife at United games.

Therefore, like I have said a million times. Gay footballers will get stick. Unrealistic to think otherwise.

Is the park park wherever you may be song racist?

The fact you noticed and mentioned that would suggest on some level you knew that it was racist.

You don't get to decide whether that is offensive because you haven't had those words hurled at you as a slur because of who you are. It boggles my mind that people still think that they should be able to determine what historically persecuted groups should find offensive.

I agree with this.

 

[Cassady]

Fowler's behaviour towards Le Saux was despicable and unforgivable .You cringed a little? Really?

More than some people did mate. I must also apologise for my choice of words as it seems they werent good enough , strong enough for how YOU felt.

Go away !

 

[Cassady]

Fowler's behaviour towards Le Saux was despicable and unforgivable .You cringed a little? Really?

And before you go away.

I can name a few incidents by footballers that are far worse than Fowlers.

Anyway. Back on topic.

 

[Still ill]

Just had a flick through this for the first time since starting the thread and we've certainly got a powerful flavour here of how far this issue is from resolution. 'Banter' is rapidly becoming my most hated word. Robbie Rogers has been mentioned a couple of times. He was interviewed for the programme. Nice fella but felt he had to give up the game in order to start his life properly. Not in a million years would he have considered coming out while playing in England. Didn't go on his first date till he was 25 and out of football. He came back, sure, but in the States, in LA, which is a very different place to play football.

There were recordings played of some chanting at a Brighton game that would make your stomach turn. I feel as much as anyone the sense of loss that people have for some aspects of the game as it was 30 years ago. I can see the danger of it going all vanilla and corporate. BUT. We're well rid of a lot of the shite that used to go on. The split in opinion here is indicative and this place is largely free of the worst elements of the terraces. Like I say, a ways to go.

 

[Ishdalar]

Sadly, it would take a lot of balls and an almost indestructible self-esteem for a gay kid/adolescent to make it into professional football.

By the time most players become famous (18/20) most of the people would know about their sexuality, I don't even have to imagine what a young gay player would have to go through in order to play football with the bunch of animals most of us were at our younger years as I've seen some teammates get bullied by others just for being femenine and giving a single hint to question their sexuality, and we're talking about heterosexual people that happened to be bullied for being femenine, not even the worst case scenario

Most of the players from my generation or even to this day would have gone through something similar. If there's a gay player in the EPL, Bundesliga, Serie A or La Liga he has survived an hostile environment and probably seen other players get chastised for their sexuality to the point of leaving a team or even football, I understand if after going through all of that they don't want to be put in a position to throw an entire career away to become some kind of advocate for something that should be seen pretty normal right now.

And beyond that, who would like to play in a team or turn pro if the general idea that he gets is that almost everyone in this sport will mess with him or make him feel different for something out of his control?. Homophobia exists in football because it's still in our society, the day that an homosexual individual can safely grow from a kid into an adult without being attacked for being homosexual might be the day we see more of them in mainstream sports.

 

[top1whoisman]

One of the biggest problems with homophobia and racism is the fact the ones not part of these minorities trying to come up with rules on what's offensive or not. A white heterosexual person telling what is and isn't homophobia or racism. We don't get to draw the lines. It's homophobia/racism if the object of the words/actions, whether meant as offensive or not, feels offended.

 

[Sir A1ex]

And before you go away.

I can name a few incidents by footballers that are far worse than Fowlers.

True ***... I've heard of biting, racism, all sorts.

 

[Cassady]

True ***... I've heard of biting, racism, all sorts.

Erm... uncalled for .

But seeing as though thats ya style lad how about kung fu kicking a fan ... trying to break an opponents leg or shagging your brothers wife.

Beaut !

 

[Murray3007]

Maybe there is currently no gay players playing in the premiership at the moment which is why they dont come out?

 

[Murray3007]

The thing is, though, that homophobic slurs aren't banter, in the same way that racism isn't. It really is as simple as that. In the examples of chants you name there are some that could be classified as such - Suarez' teeth, Kompany's forehead, granny shagger, etc - and some that definitely aren't. As far as I'm aware, 'granny shaggers' aren't a group that are regularly subjected to hate crimes just for being who they are.
Edited since you posted while I posted - again, calling Crouch a lanky bastard isn't the same, because tall people aren't a group that's discriminated against. There's a distinction there. And
"I know I have called Juan Mata "a little faggot" before. Its not homophobic though." Yes. Yes, it is. YOU may not be homophobic, but that is.

so there needs to be a group to be subjected to hate crimes ?

why is calling crouch a Lanky bastard any different to a someone being called a black bastard or a little faggot ?

 

[rimaldo]

it's their team mates i'd feel sorry for the most. everyone knows that homosexuals can't pass properly. they attract enemy pressing, they attract enemy tackles. they insist on being captain. they get up late. they nudge people whilst they're shooting. they muck about.

imagine, the fear, of knowing you have a gay man in the team hotel? when you retire at night, you think to yourself "god, will i wake up and find everybody dead?" you can't run a team like that.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

 

[thisbe]

so there needs to be a group to be subjected to hate crimes ?

why is calling crouch a Lanky bastard any different to a someone being called a black bastard or a little faggot ?

Jesus. If you actually don't see the difference I don't think there's any other way I can put it to make it clearer.

I'll just join the group at the wall, if there's room for one more to bash their head against it.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Christ, some of the stuff in this thread. Jojose having an absolute mare. "Lanky bastard" being compared to "black bastard". It's really where you can seperate the normal people from the backwards idiots.

 

[Murray3007]

Jesus. If you actually don't see the difference I don't think there's any other way I can put it to make it clearer.

I'll just join the group at the wall, if there's room for one more to bash their head against it.

no i cant crouch is getting called that because of his height which he cant do anything about, one is getting called it because the colour of there skin which they cant do anything about, the other is because the are gay which they cant do anything about. so whats the difference because tall people dont come out to complain about it ?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Jesus. If you actually don't see the difference I don't think there's any other way I can put it to make it clearer.

I'll just join the group at the wall, if there's room for one more to bash their head against it.

*shuffles sideways a bit*

 

[Ludens the Red]

Jesus. If you actually don't see the difference I don't think there's any other way I can put it to make it clearer.

I'll just join the group at the wall, if there's room for one more to bash their head against it.

Honestly, nuts. On a side note, The guy didn't even have the capability to quote you properly so it looks like that daft comment came from you. Defamation of character right there.

 

[Ludens the Red]

no i cant crouch is getting called that because of his height which he cant do anything about, one is getting called it because the colour of there skin which they cant do anything about, the other is because the are gay which they cant do anything about. so whats the difference because tall people dont come out to complain about it ?

Ffs.

 

[sallycinnamin]

Thing is football as in life is so contradictory. For example the term " all handbags" can be interpreted or at the very least towards the slang for a person who is gay as in the slang " he is a handbag" or insinuating that gay people don't fight and are not able to fight. I don't know what peoples thoughts are in relation to the " Jew goal " which stemmed from FIFA, being able to differentiate colloquial slang or sayings can be testing as in do people find offensive in these quotes or sayings that pundits and commentators some being ex-players regularly say and is seen as the norm:

" All handbags there"

" Suicidal defending or like a car crash"

" Diving is spreading like a cancer"

Also references if players are big or fall to " The Twin Towers". There is a litany of sayings or proverbs that are rife through the game even in life we have heard the saying " there's more than one way to skin a cat", so where do you draw the line... with great difficulty " under the sand".. he says.

 

[Kentonio]

Maybe there is currently no gay players playing in the premiership at the moment which is why they dont come out?

There are 20 teams in PL, and if you only count the 25 man squad that still adds up to 500 players. Roughly 1 in 10 people are gay. There being no gay players in the PL is about as likely as you winning the lottery next week.

There have been numerous stories about people in the PL saying they know team mates who are gay, but it's just kept secret. Crying shame that we're still at that point in 2016.