Homophobia in football

[AngeloHenriquez]

Calling a footballer a "puff/faggot" when you're pissed off at them for pulling out of a tackle is a joke? Righto. Erm. Hahaha?

You seem to like to twist things and I am fairly direct person so I'll put it simply to avoid any twisting/ confusion.

I did not say it was ok to call someone a puff or faggot when pissed off for the reasons mentioned above, what I did say is that in a normal situation with a colleague/ friend that if you were to say something such as "faggot" and intended it to be a joke, then it isn't prejudice as it wasn't meant that way.

Prejudice has intention behind it, perhaps insensitive could be applied to my theory, I'd accept that, but it is only prejudice/ racist with those intentions behind it or unless the recipient has stated already it isn't taken as a joke.

There are people/ media outlets that look for anything to twist into being prejudice or racist that 9/10 are not.

To provide an analogy, if you hit someone in your car accidently, it's man slaughter, if you ran them down purposely, it's murder. The difference
? Intentions.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Just out of interest, would you often call footballers you watch or play with/against a "black bastard"? Because that's just a description too, right?

I think it changes if you don't know the person, that is as mentioned above insensitive, however unless it's meant in a racist way, it cannot be that.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You seem to like to twist things and I am fairly direct person so I'll put it simply to avoid any twisting/ confusion.

I did not say it was ok to call someone a puff or faggot when pissed off for the reasons mentioned above, what I did say is that in a normal situation with a colleague/ friend that if you were to say something such as "faggot" and intended it to be a joke, then it isn't prejudice as it wasn't meant that way.

Prejudice has intention behind it, perhaps insensitive could be applied to my theory, I'd accept that, but it is only prejudice/ racist with those intentions behind it or unless the recipient has stated already it isn't taken as a joke.

There are people/ media outlets that look for anything to twist into being prejudice or racist that 9/10 are not.

To provide an analogy, if you hit someone in your car accidently, it's man slaughter, if you ran them down purposely, it's murder. The difference
? Intentions.

You didn't but @jojose did. You quoted a post of mine, addressed to him.

On the point you're making. Yes, context is everything. Close friends can use all sorts of un-PC language with each other. I've no problem with that. The point I was making is that so long as calling someone gay (puff/faggot/whatever) is used as a term of abuse for weak/cowardly players then there won't be any change to the current situation where gay footballers are reluctant to be open about their sexuality.

 

[jojose]

Just out of interest, would you often call footballers you watch or play with/against a "black bastard"? Because that's just a description too, right?

I wouldn't use that term because it is commonly considered to be offensive and unacceptable. What I am saying / asking is, is it really offensive? Is it as offensive as me being called a "white boy"? That doesn't offend me. I get fat bastard off my mates. I am not offended. People should just be happy with who they are don't be offended by words others may use. Very few words are actually offensive, most are descriptive.

I sing "he's big and he's black, he plays at the back, smalling of MUFC" Doesn't make me or any body else a racist.

Black, fat, white, ginger, boy, girl, gay, tall are all just decriptives of groups.

If "they" don't like those descriptive groups then don't have Black Music Awards, Gay Magazines etc.

 

[Penna]

I know Gareth Thomas well.

Its a figure of speech is what I was getting at. My point was I know I will have said that sort of thing in the past. I know I have called Juan Mata "a little faggot" before. Its not homophobic though. In the same way as "scouse/Scottish/german/cockney/argie twat" isn't racist. People are too easily offended and excitable around certain issues and its that reaction that I suspect creates a reluctance around gay's coming out. I don't know but just my view.

I am sure a gay footballer wants to be treated exactly the same as all of his team mates. If you have ever played a male team sport you'll know the banter is harsh. But that's all its is. He wont want them to not take the piss just because he's gay because then he is being treated differently!

Im sure in training etc Scholsey was called a "ginger prick", beckham a "cockney wanker" etc. If people "accept"...."gay bastard" as just banter (and that's how it is intended) then that isn't Homophobia. Its just assigning a term / generalisation to an insulting word to make it appropriate to that person. Crouchy is a lanky bastard.......that's not heightist or Tallophobia....its just banter

It's homophobic to use an insulting word about gay people as a casual term of abuse. You don't understand any of this, really.

 

[jojose]

You didn't but @jojose did. You quoted a post of mine, addressed to him.

On the point you're making. Yes, context is everything. Close friends can use all sorts of un-PC language with each other. I've no problem with that. The point I was making is that so long as calling someone gay (puff/faggot/whatever) is used as a term of abuse for weak/cowardly players then there won't be any change to the current situation where gay footballers are reluctant to be open about their sexuality.

Again, distorting words. I said that I have used an effeminate slur against a straight bloke for an act of cowardness.

I am also honest enough to admit at some point in my life, will will have called a player a "big girl" for pulling out of a tackle. Doesn’t make me sexist.

Saying that a girl / homosexual only pulled out of a tackle because she / he is infact female/gay......that's discrimination and wrong!

 

[Dans]

I wouldn't use that term because it is commonly considered to be offensive and unacceptable.

Whereas 30 or 40 years ago it was quite acceptable. Times changes, attitudes changes, people (slowly) become enlightened.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Again, distorting words. I said that I have used an effeminate slur against a straight bloke for an act of cowardness.

I am also honest enough to admit at some point in my life, will will have called a player a "big girl" for pulling out of a tackle. Doesn’t make me sexist.

Saying that a girl / homosexual only pulled out of a tackle because she / he is infact female/gay......that's discrimination and wrong!

Jaysus. You really don't get this. Any of it. Not sure I can make my case any clearer so I'm out.

 

[jojose]

It's homophobic to use an insulting word about gay people as a casual term of abuse. You don't understand any of this, really.

of course it is. but what word is insulting? The word bastard is an insult. So weather you are calling somebody a fat / tall / gay / ginger / Scottish bastard. The insult is the word bastard, not the descriptive of the group "they belong to".

What I am saying is you will never ever (certainly not for generations and genrations to come) loose those words of grouping / describing people in which they fit. Mainly because they are proud of those groups!

 

[Dans]

It's homophobic to use an insulting word about gay people as a casual term of abuse. You don't understand any of this, really.

Agreed. It's about common decency and respect and being able to tax your little brain to come up with something a little more subtle or intelligent rather than resorting to your old school terms of abuse many of which stem from racist or homophobic attitudes.

 

[jojose]

Jaysus. You really don't get this. Any of it. Are you now saying that being gay is synonymous with being effeminate?

No.......you have already tried to pin that on me above!

At some point in your life have you been called an Irish Bastard??? Where you in the slightest bit offended?

 

[Dans]

No.......you have already tried to pin that on me above!

At some point in your life have you been called an Irish Bastard??? Where you in the slightest bit offended?

he should have been if he was.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

No.......you have already tried to pin that on me above!

At some point in your life have you been called an Irish Bastard??? Where you in the slightest bit offended?

Edited my post. Banging my head off a brick wall here. I'm out.

 

[jojose]

Agreed. It's about common decency and respect and being able to tax your little brain to come up with something a little more subtle or intelligent rather than resorting to your old school terms of abuse many of which stem from racist or homophobic attitudes.

so subtle / intelligent homophobia is fine?

I agree that there is no need to differentiate between people but at football matches and within football teams. people are triba and macho, that wont go away. If something wont go away why waste energy being offended by it.

 

[jojose]

Edited my post. Banging my head off a brick wall here. I'm out.

feeling is mutual

 

[Dans]

so subtle / intelligent homophobia is fine?

I agree that there is no need to differentiate between people but at football matches and within football teams. people are triba and macho, that wont go away. If something wont go away why waste energy being offended by it.

Obviously I meant subtle banter, banter not being something that should rely on homophobic or racist terms.

As for the macho piece - well if that's a word for chauvenism, then perhaps you're right, but it's less prevalent, so we are making progress, wouldn't you say?

 

[SteveTheRed]

We still have a problem in football and while I think openly gay footballers will be accepted by the majority there will always be a percentage of fans that will throw abuse at them.

Football fans have chanted about players shagging other peoples wives, houses getting robbed, managers playing young players being peados all sorts of dumb shit. Someone coming out as gay will get chants about it unfortunately.

Not to mention that million of fans still use gay as an insult. You only need to go down to a building site to hear someone calling Dave a "fecking poof for not having a beer tonight" and it wouldn't be meant to offend gay people but it still would so we have a long way to go I think.

 

[Penna]

of course it is. but what word is insulting? The word bastard is an insult. So weather you are calling somebody a fat / tall / gay / ginger / Scottish bastard. The insult is the word bastard, not the descriptive of the group "they belong to".

What I am saying is you will never ever (certainly not for generations and genrations to come) loose those words of grouping / describing people in which they fit. Mainly because they are proud of those groups!

No, if you want to call someone a bastard, you just say that word. You don't add some other descriptor about their ethnicity or sexuality. You'd be committing an offence if you said "you gay bastard" to someone in the UK. If you called a straight man a bastard, you'd just say that word - not "you straight bastard".

 

[Panther]

Robbie Rogers came out as gay in 2013 after he retired at Leeds United but signed for LA Galaxy a while later. I don't really think players will get that much abuse from fans, maybe a bit but that will happen anywhere but I think it'll be the media pressure of being an openly gay footballer that will get them.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

No, if you want to call someone a bastard, you just say that word. You don't add some other descriptor about their ethnicity or sexuality. You'd be committing an offence if you said "you gay bastard" to someone in the UK. If you called a straight man a bastard, you'd just say that word - not "you straight bastard".

As a side question do you suppose it's more insulting to call someone who is straight "Straight bastard" as opposed to "Bastard"?, as if you don't, surely it's prejudice to treat others differently?

 

[Cascarino]

The world is too sensitive, intentions have to mean something, if you are saying it as a joke, there shouldn't be a problem. If you are informed it's not taken as a joke and persist, then it's a problem. To be racist/ prejudice etc you have to mean to be surely?

"If you are informed it's not taken as a joke and persist, then it's a problem"

Plenty of the time they won't inform said person that it's not been taken as a joke because they're scared of retaliation, especially due to being part of a marginalised ethnicity/sexual orientation.

One of my housemates is black and a friend I've known since I was 5, I can have 'banter' with him, doesn't mean I'm going to start a racist chant in the liberty, because I'm not a dipshit.

I don't think you have to mean it, I know plenty of people who aren't racists/prejudiced but have said racist/prejudiced things through ignorance. It doesn't stop them from being racist when they say it.

As a side question do you suppose it's more insulting to call someone who is straight "Straight bastard" as opposed to "Bastard"?, as if you don't, surely it's prejudice to treat others differently?

That's because being heterosexual doesn't make you part of a stigmatised group, when was it illegal to be straight?

 

[Penna]

As a side question do you suppose it's more insulting to call someone who is straight "Straight bastard" as opposed to "Bastard"?, as if you don't, surely it's prejudice to treat others differently?

Straight people are not discriminated against because of their sexuality. It's not even taken into account or acknowledged in most circumstances.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Straight people are not discriminated against because of their sexuality. It's not even taken into account or acknowledged in most circumstances.

Not in general but to say people haven't been discriminated against for being straight ever is a bit of a sweeping statement for me, I get your point, I'm just trying to show that this can go on forever, for me it's down to 2 elements, how well you know them and the intent behind it.

"If you are informed it's not taken as a joke and persist, then it's a problem"

Plenty of the time they won't inform said person that it's not been taken as a joke because they're scared of retaliation, especially due to being part of a marginalised ethnicity/sexual orientation.

One of my housemates is black and a friend I've known since I was 5, I can have 'banter' with him, doesn't mean I'm going to start a racist chant in the liberty, because I'm not a dipshit.

I don't think you have to mean it, I know plenty of people who aren't racists/prejudiced but have said racist/prejudiced things through ignorance. It doesn't stop them from being racist when they say it.


That's because being heterosexual doesn't make you part of a stigmatised group, when was it illegal to be straight?

I understand your POV and it's provoked thought tbf but I still think that in the case of the plenty of people you know, saying things like that could be arrogant, insensitive, unkind etc.. but racism is something you have to mean.

 

[jojose]

Obviously I meant subtle banter, banter not being something that should rely on homophobic or racist terms.

As for the macho piece - well if that's a word for chauvenism, then perhaps you're right, but it's less prevalent, so we are making progress, wouldn't you say?

I believe England and English football to have very high standards of equality.

Many countries cultures and football leagues are generation (if ever) of becoming anywhere near where we are at.

I was simply making two points. Generations of blokes that go to football matches and play in squads have grown up using terms such as “puff / faggot / queen / girl / fairy / tart” when a player pulls out of a tackle for example. I don’t think that is homophobic or sexist. Nor is using a blokes nationality or area of birth as a prefix to an insult in any way racist. Ie “you scouse bastard”. Scousers aren’t offended by being called scousers. They are proud of it. I have been called an English bastard at euro aways. That doesn’t offend me. I am proud to be English. The first homosexual to come out in the premier league will get stick. Absolutle certainty. If the “banter” remains at “you gay bastard”, he should not be offended by that. He is gay. He should be happy and proud to be gay. Why be offended by it.

The second point is the first bloke to come out will have been in this environment for many years. He’l have experienced how harsh the banter can be and will have been on both the giving and receiving end (pardon the pun). So I would expect him to want to remain part of that team. In male groups you only remain in the group if you take and receive a fair bit of ribbing.

I am speaking with a bit of experience on both sides of this. I have played decent level of football and know first hand the abuse given out by team mates, by opposition and by supporters. That will never ever change. So don’t be offended. Embrace it. If the first out of the closstter responds to ribbing by scoring and celebrating with a mincey walk and a limp wrist then all ribbing back and forth just becomes that. Ribbing. Banter.

Secondly, I have a gay lad in my group of friends. He’s fully out and accepted. He was insistent that we treat him the same. At first he wasn’t. We pussy footed around him. A bit like a mate who has just been dumped. But it didn’t take long before he started getting plenty of gay orientated abuse. But he is who he is and proud of that so doesn’t take offence.

So going back to what I originally said lets just accept that the first few footballers that come out will get stick. However “you gay bastard”….”he takes it up the arse”….grand scheme of things, are they offensive? No I don’t think so. If fans that gave that kind of stick saw the player on the street, they wouldn’t be offensive, they’d want a selfie and an autograph. Same as most in here would if they were sat next to Steven Gerard on a plane.

 

[jojose]

No, if you want to call someone a bastard, you just say that word. You don't add some other descriptor about their ethnicity or sexuality. You'd be committing an offence if you said "you gay bastard" to someone in the UK. If you called a straight man a bastard, you'd just say that word - not "you straight bastard".

That's because straight people aren't offended by being straight and described as such. Gay blokes shouldn't be offended by being gay. Black guys shouldn't be offended by being gay and so on. That's my whole point.

I am a staright English fat bastard. Any gay skinny Scottish man can call me that and I wouldn't be offended in the slightest. We are all different but all belong to certain groups.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

God I hate international breaks

 

[jojojo]

We all know football crowds go after players. Whether it's "should have died in the tunnel" - sung to Ronaldo after a car crash or the songs directed at Beckham attacking both his wife and his kid. It will happen to gay players, until it gets jumped on - the same way that crowds had to learn that black bastard, monkey noises and banana throwing had to be jumped on.

We've been though the process before. But back then, there was no avoiding dealing with it. Black players were there, they couldn't avoid being recognised as black, and their numbers were increasing, and the insults to an opposition player, were in the sight lines of your own players. Crowds had to grow up and learn.

Despite how far we imagine society has come, homosexuality remains an issue that adds to the pressure on teenagers. It's an aggravating factor in issues like anxiety, depression, self-harming, and suicide. At one of the most critical periods in a player's career, they may also be going through one of the most difficult processes for any young person. That's why it's not just banter.

Straight people are not discriminated against because of their sexuality. It's not even taken into account or acknowledged in most circumstances.

Indeed, and it will be real progress when we can say the same about homosexuality and bisexuality - a time when there's no pressure to "come out" and no stigma or discomfort in being seeing out on the town with a same sex partner.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Generations of blokes that go to football matches and play in squads have grown up using terms such as “puff / faggot / queen / girl / fairy / tart” when a player pulls out of a tackle for example. I don’t think that is homophobic or sexist.

Weirdly, I'm inclined to agree here. Not that the language isn't homophobic or sexist -- it is. But, its usage very rarely connotes any literal definition. In certain contexts its meaning is altered and through indexical properties of language you find people using these words as calques. Having said that, context is paramount. There will be plenty of people who use this language and mean it exactly as it reads.

Nor is using a blokes nationality or area of birth as a prefix to an insult in any way racist. Ie “you scouse bastard”. Scousers aren’t offended by being called scousers. They are proud of it.

What about "you black bastard"? You "(insert whatever nationality/race) bastard"? It's a slippery slope, and it does cause an enormous amount of offense. Even the Scouse example -- some might not care, but plenty do.
It's offensive and just isn't acceptable in any decent society.

However “you gay bastard”….”he takes it up the arse”….grand scheme of things, are they offensive?

If that was being chanted from the terraces by crowds of hundreds (or thousands) at a footballer who was rumoured to be gay -- or actually was gay -- then I'd hazard a guess that it would be very offensive. Especially in light of the stories we hear about depression at the top level. Just take a look at that sexual abuse thread. That guy spent half of his adult life contemplating suicide. People need to leave this troglodyte horseshit behind -- and the old "it's a working man's game" nonsense doesn't cut it. If anything, I find it plainly fecking offensive to decent working class people.

 

[jojose]

We all know football crowds go after players. Whether it's "should have died in the tunnel" - sung to Ronaldo after a car crash or the songs directed at Beckham attacking both his wife and his kid. It will happen to gay players, until it gets jumped on - the same way that crowds had to learn that black bastard, monkey noises and banana throwing had to be jumped on.

We've been though the process before. But back then, there was no avoiding dealing with it. Black players were there, they couldn't avoid being recognised as black, and their numbers were increasing, and the insults to an opposition player, were in the sight lines of your own players. Crowds had to grow up and learn.

Despite how far we imagine society has come, homosexuality remains an issue that adds to the pressure on teenagers. It's an aggravating factor in issues like anxiety, depression, self-harming, and suicide. At one of the most critical periods in a player's career, they may also be going through one of the most difficult processes for any young person. That's why it's not just banter.



Indeed, and it will be real progress when we can say the same about homosexuality and bisexuality - a time when there's no pressure to "come out" and no stigma or discomfort in being seeing out on the town with a same sex partner.

I totally agree with all of this. However, to educate people on racism, we had to experience it. What I am saying is we will have to experience homophobia in the game to get past it. Its what you classify as offensive / racist / homophobic. To expect the first outer to come out and nothing change for him is unrealistic. It will change, good and bad.

As a society we need to be more accepting and less offended in equal measures IMO.

As parts of certain groups you cant go having Black Music Awards, Gay Magazines, Gay Nights, Gay Bars, Gay websites and not expect people out side of those groups to describe you in exactly the same way! Black and Gay is not in anyway offensive.

 

[jojose]

Weirdly, I'm inclined to agree here. Not that the language isn't homophobic or sexist -- it is. But, its usage very rarely connotes any literal definition. In certain contexts its meaning is altered and through indexical properties of language you find people using these words as calques. Having said that, context is paramount. There will be plenty of people who use this language and mean it exactly as it reads.


What about "you black bastard"? You "(insert whatever nationality/race) bastard"? It's a slippery slope, and it does cause an enormous amount of offense. Even the Scouse example -- some might not care, but plenty do.
It's offensive and just isn't acceptable in any decent society.

If that was being chanted from the terraces by crowds of hundreds (or thousands) at a footballer who was rumoured to be gay -- or actually was gay -- then I'd hazard a guess that it would be very offensive. Especially in light of the stories we hear about depression at the top level. Just take a look at that sexual abuse thread. That guy spent half of his adult life contemplating suicide. People need to leave this troglodyte horseshit behind -- and the old "it's a working man's game" nonsense doesn't cut it. If anything, I find it plainly fecking offensive to decent working class people.

Bold bit - I have given my opinion numerous times on that.

Can I ask a question, when at the match have you ever sang "you scouse bastard?". The majority of match going fans have and will continue to do so. Is it meant offensively? Sort of. Is it hurtful or spiteful? No. Away from the match to you actively seek to prejudice against scousers? No of course not.

Gary Neville famously said "he hates Liverpool, the people and everything to do with the place" Is Gary Neville a racist or a bad, nasty vindictive man? No course he isn't. He's best mates with Wayne Rooney the scouse captain of our club and soon to be record goal scorer.

Its just banter!!!!! It wont ever go away!!!. Of course "you balck bastard" and monkey chants have gone. But they have only been replaced with "du du duuu drogba/toure's got ebola" and "your dad washed elephants". Is it really racist? Are the people who sing that racist? No. They are the same people who sing "he's big and he's black", the same people that adore(d) yorkey, cole, martial, rashford etc.

Park Park wherever you maybe...........???? Racist? Offensive?? Of course it isn't.

 

[Unlikely lad]

This thread shows exactly why gay athletes still don't feel comfortable coming out.

Straight men saying they wouldn't be offended by other people calling them "straight bastards", FFS

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Can I ask a question, when at the match have you ever sang "you scouse bastard?". The majority of match going fans have and will continue to do so. Is it meant offensively? Sort of. Is it hurtful or spiteful? No. Away from the match to you actively seek to prejudice against scousers? No of course not.

Well, football is tribal, but it is always dependent on context. In a match setting, this kind of thing is fine. It's to be expected as geography is what marks the difference between clubs and supporters.

"du du duuu drogba/toure's got ebola" and "your dad washed elephants". Is it really racist?

This is genuinely racist -- it might be as close to a textbook definition of racism as you'll get.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Let me know if you want a go on this wall I'm bashing my head on. Plenty of room for more if I shove on up a bit...

 

[jojose]

This thread shows exactly why gay athletes still don't feel comfortable coming out.

Straight men saying they wouldn't be offended by other people calling them "straight bastards", FFS

All I am saying is that football fans will make a chant up about opposition players with any "quirk" that they can put on them. There will be one for the gay players and it may well be border line offensive. But the majority involved are not homophobic. They maybe insensitive and ignorant to consequences such as mental health. But they are not homophobic.

 

[jojose]

Well, football is tribal, but it is always dependent on context. In a match setting, this kind of thing is fine. It's to be expected as geography is what marks the difference between clubs and supporters.

This is genuinely racist -- it might be as close to a textbook definition of racism as you'll get.

is it offensive?

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

is it offensive?

Ebola? Elephants? Those are racial stereotypes. How can that not be offensive? There's no grey area there -- it's just out and out racism.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Let me know if you want a go on this wall I'm bashing my head on. Plenty of room for more if I shove on up a bit...

 

[thisbe]

is it offensive?

Do you mean the chants about Touré and Drogba? Yes. They're very offensive.

You need to look at the context of how a word is used. You'd (general you, if you'd like) say "You gay bastard" or "You big puff" when someone makes a mistake - would you ever use it in a positive context? "You gay genius!" I'm guessing not. You're giving the word 'gay' a negative - connotation? (sorry, my English is failing me) here.

 

[jojose]

Ebola? Elephants? Those are racial stereotypes. How can that not be offensive? There's no grey area there -- it's just out and out racism.

There was a black guy singing both!!!
Do you think toure, drogba, adebayor were bothered?

Point remains, we say "racism" has gone! If that is considered racism then it clearly hasn't and its rife at United games.

Therefore, like I have said a million times. Gay footballers will get stick. Unrealistic to think otherwise.

Is the park park wherever you may be song racist?

 

[Dans]

Can I ask a question, when at the match have you ever sang "you scouse bastard?". The majority of match going fans have and will continue to do so. Is it meant offensively? Sort of. Is it hurtful or spiteful? No. Away from the match to you actively seek to prejudice against scousers? No of course not.

You cannot say that scousers have been discriminated throughout recent history in the same way that black and gay people have been though can you? The comparison isn't valid in my opinion.