Hip Hop History
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I think the reason we are having such a difference of opinion is down to what you regard as excellence in rap and what I regaurd as excellence in rap, and sadly you have completely the wrong idea of what actually makes a good rapper.
Sucessful is one thing but talent is another and its clear to see that you don't regaurd the two as seperate entities where as I most certainly do. The fact that you are able to name 3 rappers 2 of whom have done absolutely nothing to further rap says it all really about the fleeting and pointless nature of the tag "future of Rap/Hip hop".
Since when was being a household name and selling records the mark of a genuinely talented rapper? You seem to think that its popularity that dictates who will drives rap forward, since when?
I do worry about people like you because clearly you listen to a decent amount of rap but I don't think you understand where Rap comes from and whats at its heart. Rap has always been an underground movement that comes from the streets which is where its heart lies. It has never been a popularity contest. Thats not to say that guy like Drake and Lil Wayne haven't had their underground days but it is to suggest that the music they produce today has very little in common with the roots of rap.
It means nothing when a mainstream pop journalists - who has a passing interest in Rap but does not really understand whats at the core of rap - showers praise on guys like Drake. These people will never trully understand where Rap came from, why it exists and why its future will only come from the streets.
You see the problem with guys like Drake ad Lil'wayne is that they make a genre of rap that i've now come to refer to as pop rap or college rap(PRAP or CRAP if you like). Rap music for the mainstream.
It focuses on simple beats, simple delivery and simple word play. Simple music for simple people and its not the way forward.
Are you seriously telling me you don't see the problem with Soldja Boy being a driving force in Rap? Reducing rap music to the complexity of ring tones is a huge problem. Again simple beats, simple flow and simple message for simple people.
Snoop Dogg and Eminem not only sold millions they also had a couple of key things which Drake doesn't.
(1) a genuine talent for delivery, flow and word play
(2)A sound that was not deliberately commercial(emminem has lost this lately)
(3)good/interesting beats(Snoop dogg especially with some excellent G-funk beats)
(4) genuine verve, agression and gusto
Drake has none of the above which is why unlike those legends(yes I class em as one) he is an average rapper. There is nothing wrong with a rapper crossing over into the mainstream as long as he does not have a sound which is deliberately designed to do so. Snoop and Em didn't, Drake clearly does.
This is the part of your post I actually found genuinely funny. Do you really think producing rap you can "sing along to" is a sign of progress or talent. This is exactly what I mean when I talk about reducing rap to the complexity of ring tones.
Yes i might have a verse of two of my favourite Wu Tang Tracks memorized but I really don't think that when good rappers take to the studio they plan to release Rap music that the masses can "sing" or even rap along to. If that was their primary aim then they might as well not take to the studio in the first place because that kind of attitude only produces the kind of commercial rubbish that guys like Drake produce. That kind of music has nothing to do with the roots of rap or a healthy future for it.
As for drake being sought after well thats to be expected when so many rappers in the mainstream today believe that the commercial approach (as in simplicity sells) is the way forward.
Again the issue of popularity raises it head again and again i'll draw your attention back to the fact that rap has never been a popularity contest in fact at times it has been completely the opposite. Why should it bother me if an indie artist is more popular than Young Jeezy? for a start Jeezy is Shit so thats where my concern about his career ends.
You ask what is progress in rap. Progress in rap is in a word complexity. The last time I personally ever felt genuine progress in rap was when originally listening to Wu Tang between 1993-1997. Here was a collect of nine rappers each one with a completely unique flow brought together to make one unit whos sole intention was moving the game forward.
They brought the same intensity and gusto to their music that early NWA had(the last group before them to move rap forward) but it was a vastly different sound. Oriental beats with Violins and strings, excellent wordplay and a rawness that reminded you everytime that these were guys who were originally making money selling demo tapes out of the back of a van. That was progress and it was progress because there was nobody else like them before they arrived on the scene(something that neither Drake or Lil Wayne can claim). They took the same gusto at the roots of rap and moved it forward with geniunely intelligent production, beautifully created beats and to quote them: "witty, unpredictable talent and natural game".
The problem is in a way you may actually be right, Drake might actually be the future of rap in name only, he may be a definative sign of exactly where rap is going, the problem is that if that is true then rap is heading toward a very distructive path. Simplifying rap to appeal to the masses is not the way forward, reducing rap to ringtone complexity is not either.
I'm not suggesting that the Wu tang approach is the only way forward for rap but I am saying that complexity and the elevation to a true art form(which Wu Tang and many others have achieved in verse) is the way forward not commercial simplicity.
Others may highlight other sources of genuinely progressive artist in rap, Wu Tang are just a personal choice of mine. However what those sources must all have in common is geniune artistry or complexity to their sound. That for me is the only way toward progress in the game.
Oh and sorry to break the peace...................
Bamsola Drake has one of the illest flows in the game, he rides every beat perfectly.
Please.
I'm guessing you've heard all his mixtapes to jump to the conclusions you have, no?
Define flow
That's one of Drizzy's strongest points
That's one of Drizzy's strongest points
His flow has always been on point even on his singles.
Errrrrrr............ok you've changed my mind, well done.
lol what's the point if you don't hear his songs, just check them out for yourself, they are all over youtube, how do you define flow? Dude rides the beats smoothly maneeeee
Quality post but the peace has been made, if you'd like to continue discussion send me a PM mate
I think the reason we are having such a difference of opinion is down to what you regard as excellence in rap and what I regaurd as excellence in rap, and sadly you have completely the wrong idea of what actually makes a good rapper.
Sucessful is one thing but talent is another and its clear to see that you don't regaurd the two as seperate entities where as I most certainly do. The fact that you are able to name 3 rappers 2 of whom have done absolutely nothing to further rap says it all really about the fleeting and pointless nature of the tag "future of Rap/Hip hop".
Since when was being a household name and selling records the mark of a genuinely talented rapper? You seem to think that its popularity that dictates who will drives rap forward, since when?
I do worry about people like you because clearly you listen to a decent amount of rap but I don't think you understand where Rap comes from and whats at its heart. Rap has always been an underground movement that comes from the streets which is where its heart lies. It has never been a popularity contest. Thats not to say that guy like Drake and Lil Wayne haven't had their underground days but it is to suggest that the music they produce today has very little in common with the roots of rap.
It means nothing when a mainstream pop journalists - who has a passing interest in Rap but does not really understand whats at the core of rap - showers praise on guys like Drake. These people will never trully understand where Rap came from, why it exists and why its future will only come from the streets.
You see the problem with guys like Drake ad Lil'wayne is that they make a genre of rap that i've now come to refer to as pop rap or college rap(PRAP or CRAP if you like
It focuses on simple beats, simple delivery and simple word play. Simple music for simple people and its not the way forward.
Are you seriously telling me you don't see the problem with Soldja Boy being a driving force in Rap? Reducing rap music to the complexity of ring tones is a huge problem. Again simple beats, simple flow and simple message for simple people.
Snoop Dogg and Eminem not only sold millions they also had a couple of key things which Drake doesn't.
(1) a genuine talent for delivery, flow and word play
(2)A sound that was not deliberately commercial(emminem has lost this lately)
(3)good/interesting beats(Snoop dogg especially with some excellent G-funk beats)
(4) genuine verve, agression and gusto
Drake has none of the above which is why unlike those legends(yes I class em as one) he is an average rapper. There is nothing wrong with a rapper crossing over into the mainstream as long as he does not have a sound which is deliberately designed to do so. Snoop and Em didn't, Drake clearly does.
This is the part of your post I actually found genuinely funny. Do you really think producing rap you can "sing along to" is a sign of progress or talent. This is exactly what I mean when I talk about reducing rap to the complexity of ring tones.
Yes i might have a verse of two of my favourite Wu Tang Tracks memorized but I really don't think that when good rappers take to the studio they plan to release Rap music that the masses can "sing" or even rap along to. If that was their primary aim then they might as well not take to the studio in the first place because that kind of attitude only produces the kind of commercial rubbish that guys like Drake produce. That kind of music has nothing to do with the roots of rap or a healthy future for it.
As for drake being sought after well thats to be expected when so many rappers in the mainstream today believe that the commercial approach (as in simplicity sells) is the way forward.
Again the issue of popularity raises it head again and again i'll draw your attention back to the fact that rap has never been a popularity contest in fact at times it has been completely the opposite. Why should it bother me if an indie artist is more popular than Young Jeezy? for a start Jeezy is Shit so thats where my concern about his career ends.
You ask what is progress in rap. Progress in rap is in a word complexity. The last time I personally ever felt genuine progress in rap was when originally listening to Wu Tang between 1993-1997. Here was a collect of nine rappers each one with a completely unique flow brought together to make one unit whos sole intention was moving the game forward.
They brought the same intensity and gusto to their music that early NWA had(the last group before them to move rap forward) but it was a vastly different sound. Oriental beats with Violins and strings, excellent wordplay and a rawness that reminded you everytime that these were guys who were originally making money selling demo tapes out of the back of a van. That was progress and it was progress because there was nobody else like them before they arrived on the scene(something that neither Drake or Lil Wayne can claim). They took the same gusto at the roots of rap and moved it forward with geniunely intelligent production, beautifully created beats and to quote them: "witty, unpredictable talent and natural game".
The problem is in a way you may actually be right, Drake might actually be the future of rap in name only, he may be a definative sign of exactly where rap is going, the problem is that if that is true then rap is heading toward a very distructive path. Simplifying rap to appeal to the masses is not the way forward, reducing rap to ringtone complexity is not either.
I'm not suggesting that the Wu tang approach is the only way forward for rap but I am saying that complexity and the elevation to a true art form(which Wu Tang and many others have achieved in verse) is the way forward not commercial simplicity.
Others may highlight other sources of genuinely progressive artist in rap, Wu Tang are just a personal choice of mine. However what those sources must all have in common is geniune artistry or complexity to their sound. That for me is the only way toward progress in the game.
I was nodding with your argument until that point. I think Anderson Searl is suffering from the same frustration I have with some 'headz' from around my way. You just uttered the words that gets my blood boiling. You see, hip hop or rap as an musical art form is relatively young. Because of that, it was only natural to see a boom early on in the development of the music and then once it is popularised, everything else is just written of as garbage by fans who 'long for the good ol' days'. When rap was rap etc etc etc...
Problem with that is that nobody will ever make another Reasonable Doubt, Illmatic, 36 Chambers, OB4CL, Ready to Die etc etc etc. Its impossible to relive that era. It won't happen again. Not anytime soon at least. Hip Hop is going through a transitional phase whereby there are so many different types of rap out now, that it is hard to keep up. It does not mean that the creativity has been lost or anything of that sorts. It just means that the music has evolved and we as the late 80's early 90's hip hop crowd need to start accepting that. If you want to listen to MF Doom, Aesop Rock etc then do but don't shoot down other artists hard work when you don't even bother listening to it. I promise you that all you've bothered listening to from Drake is the tracks from the radio. As Jay said: "Do you listen to music or do you just scheme through it?"
I can use Common as an example. Lots of headz were saying Electric Circus is wack and Common done lost his mind. He should go back to making a One day it'll all make sense blah blah. All of my friends shot down that album without even really listening to it. I bothered. And I found a genius way of ahead of schedule. Guess what? We are hearing all this spaced out guitar sounds on beats now and he had it then. But no it was too out of line. Not the norm. That is my biggest frustration with headz, stop closing yourself to just one kind of music. There's a world of music out there that if you bothered to give it a chance, you will thoroughly enjoy.
And that's all I want to say. Please do note I will not reply. Just had to get it off my chest.
Trust me, hip hop will keep changing, but people will always knock it down for the old stuff, there was a time when some of the legends yall love were also clowned on by the older cats, and it's the same with every trend of music.
Who's the lad who said who made a thread saying all music is shit nowadays. It's not, just open up your mind to it, get with it, you might like what you hear,and in a decade or so, fans who loved Drake etc will be clowning on the newest artists to come out.
Who's the lad who said who made a thread saying all music is shit nowadays. It's not, just open up your mind to it, get with it, you might like what you hear,and in a decade or so, fans who loved Drake etc will be clowning on the newest artists to come out.
I think you've misread or not understood what i've said and its fine if you don't reply but i need to clarify.
Iam not saying everybody needs to sound like Wu tang or that I still wish they did what iam saying is that their arrival on the scene marked a true era of progression for me as they brought something new to the table. If the people who followed them sounded like them then they would get the same reception from me that Drake does because following isn't about originality and its originality which takes a movement forward.
You must have me really wrong if you think I am a Hip hop head who doesn't expect rap to evolve and change, my whole post that you quoted is about exactly that, evolution and change through complexity of music. But Drake for me (and i've heard more than 7 different tracks from/featuring him) does not represent change. He represent for me the same tired formular that guys like Farell William have been heavily involved in and there is no originality in it.
Something they also lack which is key to sucess in rap in intensity and gusto. If they had those two things they could take rap anywhere they like as far as i'm concerned as it would be in good hands.
Wu tang I only mentioned as an example, i'm certainly not a guy who wants rap to sound like it did in the 90's although that would obviously be my favourite period if I was asked to name one. The simple fact is I listen to all sorts of progressive rap artists including people like Saul Williams who is just about as alternative/progressive as rap gets. I don't long for the old days I simply long for progression and Drake is not progression.
Point taken and seen.
Well you've heard 7 tracks from Drake and some were features, there you go mate, there you go!
"More than"
My bad, sorry but I get the feeling people dissng Drake on here haven't even heard a full mixtape, it's like people who say Zlatan is shit despite seeing him play once or twice.Anyway when 'Thank me later' drops I expect apologies, by PM if you will.
Do please hold your breath.