It is unrealistic to expect Ronaldo at 36 to press from the front. Same for Messi. Somebody else need to do the work for them. I am hugely impressed by Vardy however as he is still pressing at his age.
High Press | Does it work?
- Thread starter RDCR07
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Showed some on mnf. He’s the only United player in the top 20 players with pressures this season. His level was on the same as Mane and Salah. But yeah at Dortmund you press. It’s in the dna so yeah he would do it here.
A sancho/rashford/Bruno trio could form an effective press without question. It’s just putting in place which is the problem. Rashfords pressures were massively down last year but think that was probably because of the injury.
But it must be said that Sancho's defensive contribution wasn't always this good. But he really developed in that regard throughout last season and therefore actually became a leader in Dortmund's squad. Not surprising that he at least in that regard excels and still is completely wasted in this team.
Those 3 with Cavani up front and Fred, Mctominay in midfield could actually form a decent pressing unit in attack/mid.
I think maguire would be a big problem in any high pressing, high line team. Opposition would look to pin him in a 1v1 and probably get great results, especially if we are expecting fullbacks to contribute to the press as well, which is kind of essential to that sort of tactic.
yeah saw that and completely agree with you, those 3 should be able to compensate for Ronaldo. Replace Ronaldo with Cavani and then there should be no excuses
You don't see vardy trademark work, work as hard as possible to press for every single Ball? Or you didn't watch him play ?
I do see him lead the press, but isn't it more of a midfield press than a high press they apply? Just thinking about the area were they press, that they do press quite well is obvious.
Leceister by Renieri, playing out of a 4-4-2 in which the highest players chased opponents in their own half and made it difficult to penetrate the lines separating them from goal.
True, but they did not usually start pressing around the opponents box, did they? As I remember them (to be honest I did not follow them very much that season) the final third was most of the time only occupied when they countered into it. So that is why I consider them to be a midfield pressing team.
A real high pressing means that (almost) all players stay in the opponent's half, not only the highest ones.
I agree entirely with your general premise. Yes, with that side you’d be able to press and do so very effectively if the team were well drilled to press immediately the ball were lost in turnovers and then slip almost instantly into their defensive shape if the ball wasn’t regained in a predetermined number of seconds.
With that outfield it could work fine, and I don’t think Maguire‘s speed would prove an issue if he was disciplined enough to stay with the system, but it can’t happen because DeGea (excellent shop stopper that he is) doesn’t have the bravery in his play to really push up behind a high line and he doesn’t have the basic distribution skills to allow the team to play out from the back effectively.
You’re stuck with DeGea on his huge salary but he’s an effective keeper in a more ‘traditional’ system and IMO it’s that realisation (that you can’t play a high press with DeGea) that resulted in you being fine with employing a player like Ronaldo, who doesn’t have the legs to be part of a press.
This Man Utd squad should not be pressing high up the pitch, nor should they really be playing out from the back. We do not have the players to do it.
Our gameplan should be relatively simple: When out of possession, drop in, be compact, mid to low block. Then play on transition.
When you look at the players we have that is surely the best option for us.
People will say: 'What happens when we go up against a low block ourselves?' My response would be: 'Lets cross that bridge when we come to it.' The fact is the likes of Leicester, Everton, Aston Villa etc did not use a low block against us. They were happy for us to try and take the game to them, confident that they would win individual duels and play through us.
Ole's decision to try and be 'expansive' looks half baked. It looks like he's not managing the squad he has but managing what he thinks expectations are: Man Utd should be X therefore I am going to try it. Its suicidal really. The only thing its doing is leaving lots of gaps for opposition teams to run into. If he keeps on like this we will keep losing and he will get sacked. He has to go back to what won him the job in the first place: Counterattacking football.
Our gameplan should be relatively simple: When out of possession, drop in, be compact, mid to low block. Then play on transition.
When you look at the players we have that is surely the best option for us.
People will say: 'What happens when we go up against a low block ourselves?' My response would be: 'Lets cross that bridge when we come to it.' The fact is the likes of Leicester, Everton, Aston Villa etc did not use a low block against us. They were happy for us to try and take the game to them, confident that they would win individual duels and play through us.
Ole's decision to try and be 'expansive' looks half baked. It looks like he's not managing the squad he has but managing what he thinks expectations are: Man Utd should be X therefore I am going to try it. Its suicidal really. The only thing its doing is leaving lots of gaps for opposition teams to run into. If he keeps on like this we will keep losing and he will get sacked. He has to go back to what won him the job in the first place: Counterattacking football.
You say cross the bridge of playing a low block when you come to it, but ironically you more or less gave the answer to that already: be compact, keep the team as a whole together. United do have playmakers who are able to break a low block, but need options to move forward AND to retain the ball safely. At the moment United is very often simply a broken team, attackers on their own have to try something heroic and the opponent has loads of space to counter when this enevitably fails.
High press is en vogue now and for the past few years but let's be honest, this team isn't built for it and the coaching staff cannot coach it.
Its a broken team as a consequence of its parts.
Nobody trusts players like Maguire and Lindelof to defend from the halfway line, not even those players themselves. They will always drop off because they know they can't beat the likes of Andros Townsend or Ismaila Sarr in a footrace.
Once you have the back line dropping off you cannot press effectively. As you note, to press high, you need to play the whole game in the opposition half: Attacking, midfield and defensive lines close together so that beating one line doesn't lead to being able to isolate the players in the next line. You cannot do that if your defenders' instinct is to drop off to make sure they don't get beaten for pace. And that just opens up space between the lines, it makes the midfield like an island that other teams can just bypass.
To prevent this, rather than pretend we can play a high press, we should just retreat into our shape when we lose the ball and defend from within our own half. What we're doing right now reminds me of what Villas Boas did when he went to Chelsea: Forcing players to play a high line when they just weren't built for it. All in the name of 'attacking football.' Solskjaer has to manage the squad he has, not the squad he would like to have.
The high press definitely works when we do it properly. The problem is that we either don’t do it or just do it half-heartedly. Yes, Ronaldo doesn’t press and it’s probably unfair to expect him to at 36, but the 3 behind him should be coached to press in a block, with one midfielder and the full back on the side of the play backing them up. It’s basic, and when you analyse City, Liverpool and Bayern, the 3 best pressing sides in the world, it’s how they all do it. Football is a difficult game, but pressing is one of the easier components to coach.
Also, pressing isn’t solely down to fitness, as I’ve seen people blame in this thread. If it was, we’d be an amazing pressing team! Think back to 2019 when we kept running out of steam during Ole’s first season, which Ole promised to fix in the summer. Either he didn’t actually fix it, or more likely, he simply still does not know how coach a team to press functionally.
Still, when we do try to press high, we definitely get better results than when we sit back. I’m sure we all admired the way we got at city at their place last year and completely dominated them and how we pressed Leipzig, and won 5-0. Either way, both tactics are better than the one we’ve seemingly employed this season, which is that one of Sancho, Bruno or Mason goes to press, no one backs him up, we get cut through right down the middle and the opposition score. It’s happened time and time again, such as against Villarreal, Everton and Leicester, and we’ve shown no inclination that we are able to fix it.
Also, pressing isn’t solely down to fitness, as I’ve seen people blame in this thread. If it was, we’d be an amazing pressing team! Think back to 2019 when we kept running out of steam during Ole’s first season, which Ole promised to fix in the summer. Either he didn’t actually fix it, or more likely, he simply still does not know how coach a team to press functionally.
Still, when we do try to press high, we definitely get better results than when we sit back. I’m sure we all admired the way we got at city at their place last year and completely dominated them and how we pressed Leipzig, and won 5-0. Either way, both tactics are better than the one we’ve seemingly employed this season, which is that one of Sancho, Bruno or Mason goes to press, no one backs him up, we get cut through right down the middle and the opposition score. It’s happened time and time again, such as against Villarreal, Everton and Leicester, and we’ve shown no inclination that we are able to fix it.
You said about crossing the bridge when it comes to it, we will be crossing that bridge every week once opponents find out what we are trying to do, which they will do instantly.
I don't agree that Lindelof and Maguire cannot handle Sarr or Townsend, defenders don't just have a race with the attackers. If our attackers and midfielders press immediately and effectively higher up at the pitch, likes of Sarr or Townsend won't be fed with good passes and Maguire and Lindelof can easily mop them up and when it comes to worst, De Gea has to bail them out. This is how all top teams play with a high line. There is also the offside trap. There are effective ways to defend with a high line, but we have to work as a team. Our coaches have to train the players to press effectively, this is not happening. That's why we are slow to press, meaning we get balls over the top easily and Maguire and lindelof look shite running after pacey players.
Yes it is easy to be compact and try a low block, but its going to end up with a lot of draws and most teams in the league are happy with a point from us.
Pressing doesn't mean running all over the full pitch. City or Liverpool are so good at pressing that they usually win the ball back before the halfway line, meaning they press only half the pitch. Its obvious that Ronaldo cannot run the entire length of the pitch or play like Cavani, but he can press in a smaller area. That's how we have to do it, if we are pressing as a team in a smaller area, we'd get away with Ronaldo not doing the grunt work against most poor teams, there are very very few CBs who can make a decent pass, Ronaldo at best would be pressing the central defenders.
One more thing, City and Liverpool are good at quick passing that they lose possession very less and again meaning they don't have to press often.
One more thing, City and Liverpool are good at quick passing that they lose possession very less and again meaning they don't have to press often.
Its your front players that start the press and midfield who only do it at the right time. Even before Ronaldo we didnt have attackers who pressed like our opponents who have success against us with pressing. Our front players other than Cavani press with a token gesture not a genuine desire to try and win the ball and attack
I am just making a comment on what I see: Lindelof and Maguire back off from advancing attackers. My assumption is they do it because they want to give themselves space for a recovery challenge. They know if it ends up in a race to the ball, shoulder to shoulder with a Jarrod Bowen or a Almiron they will get beaten. So they constantly look to give themselves a little extra time and space. That affects how the whole team behaves.
Yes, the attackers could do more. However, as you say, when your attackers commit to a press, the midfielders must also do so and the defence must back this up. Instead what usually happens with us is, when the attackers do press when the press gets beaten the front four are basically stranded up field. The midfield is paralysed because they know that, already, seeing the ball coming the defenders are going backwards. So they know if they go forward and get beat the defence is totally exposed. But if they drop off, if the attackers don't recover, they can end up getting totally outnumbered in transition. We see this happening game after game. Basically we are asking our midfielders to have perfect decision making and execution on every transition, and we all know they're not at that level.
The easy way to compensate for this is to drop into a mid to low block. Will that lead to more draws? Maybe. But if we play low blocks we can be a bit less cautious. My point is at the moment we're not playing low blocks. We have only played one side this season that tried to low block us, Newcastle. Everyone else was fairly happy to trade punches with us, confident that they could play through us because of the broken structure of our team.
So I say we need to get solid, get a few good results out of it and then, maybe when teams stop being confident enough to come at us and start sitting off, we can worry about facing a low block.
From what I see, as soon as we lose possession it's apparent to Maguire or Lindelof that our attackers and midfielders aren't pressing enough to make the opponents make a poor pass or lose possession, hence they track back to handle the attackers. If the entire team is in sync in pressing and defenders are confident that our attack and midfield will do enough(they don't even have to win the ball back, they'd just have to hurry opposition players and force them to play an inaccurate pass), high line will definitely work.
Pressing is a collective thing, attackers alone don't start the pressing, attackers press defenders, our midfielders have to push up and start pressing opponents at the same time. This is how it's done. The confusion happens in our team because pressing isn't collective, if two or three players don't do it properly, we will get passed around. You know why only very few coaches get pressing working, because it's difficult to do and when done correctly it will be highly rewarding. Give this team to Bielsa, he will have us pressing well before the end of the season.
What's the point of playing for draws, we could have had Moyes if that's the standard we are going for. May be short term it may work but it doesn't solve any problems and forget about competing for titles.
So imagine the outcome if you compound a pressing problem by removing your only decent presser and putting in his place the absolute worst presser in the league. It's a mess.
There's certainly an element of truth to what you are saying. However, over the course of Ole's reign Lindelof and Maguire have looked happiest (as have Wan Bissaka and Shaw) when they are able to low/mid block. Case in point is the games we've won against City, against whom Ole has an excellent record because he can default to a completely counterattacking setup.
Lindelof and Maguire's best, most comfortable displays, have not been when United are pressing from the front. But when they have the security/reassurance of teammates being at close proximity to cover space in our own half. Its possible that if we had a more coordinated press that things might change as you describe. But going by what we've seen over the past few years under Ole I'm not sure that any of our defenders, besides Varane, will ever really be comfortable playing a high line.
I feel you are being overly optimistic about the limitations of this squad. To a large extent it has not evolved very far from Mourinho's style. That doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. At his best Mourinho produces teams that win and score lots of goals. However, I don't think we're tooled to be a Bielsa or a Pep team.
All defenders would feel comfortable in a low block because they have lots of protection but it's not going to reward us with titles. Yes we have won by parking the bus and counter attacking against big teams, but that is not enough to win titles, we have to consistently attack small teams to win titles and almost all smaller teams in the PL are happy with a point against us.
It's utter bullshit that we dont have the defenders to press high, the likes of Liam Cooper, Luke Ayling have adapted to Bielsa's system, no reason why Maguire and Lindelof cannot do the same. We all saw how Mourinho's system went, it just doesn't work anymore. That's the reason he is at Roma now.
Yes, high press does work.
Just not ours.
Just not ours.
It does though.
When we don't play Ronaldo.
The Everton game was such a better performance in the first period. Then we put Ronaldo on and it just gets different. The man absolutely refuses to press defenders.
I agree. The manager would have known this before bringing him in, so what exactly was he thinking? It shows a lack of quality, forward thinking planning in my opinion.
Well, the fans would have been in an absolute uproar (myself included truth be told) if we didn't. Ronnie coming home has an enormous nostalgic value that the club just couldn't afford to act on. The fans would never have forgiven them if they didn't.
Ronaldo is also undroppable going by the fans reaction after the Everton game, despite us losing the 2 points after Ronaldo came on.
I wish that the common fan would accept that its a good idea to let Ronaldo actually rest some games and let us play to our strengths more.
I don't think it's just down to Ronaldo, its also having Ronaldo and Pogba on at the same time. Both don't press enough or don't really know how to do it. IMO it's either one or the other, but the issue I have with Ole is that he is scared of making this type of decision. He is still trying to convince Pogba to stay so he wants to play him all the time and he wants to make fans happy by playing Ronaldo. All this by trying to fit Sancho in.
Isn't the point of high pressing and defending from the front/with stronger control of a match that you actually have to do less of the defending defending? Like how City have Dias and Laporte/Stones who are hardly roadrunners at the back. They get away with it because they tend to stay in control of matches and it limits issue like that.
Have seen some people saying we pressed well tonight but I thought it was far better in the second half. The first half was the same uncoordinated mess it often is with one player pressing and the others not doing so. Ronaldo was doing a lot of closing down and then waving his arms to get the others to join him which often they didn't do. A big improvement in the second half though and we looked a lot stronger when Bruno and Rashford came on.
We don't press.
The man closest to the ball is expected to close down the player with the ball. That's not pressing - that's just a basic part of football. Sometimes the players are asked to do that more aggressively - to show more effort. But again that's not pressing.
In my opinion, pressing actually starts from the back not the front. You need to push your own backline up to compress the pitch depending on how aggressive you want to be, the forwards and midfielders then need to work towards putting the opposition in certain unfavourable scenarios. Turning the ball in the final third is actually only an occasional bonus of pressing well, but often you're working to just get the opposition to lump it long to you so you can regain your own possession.
The man closest to the ball is expected to close down the player with the ball. That's not pressing - that's just a basic part of football. Sometimes the players are asked to do that more aggressively - to show more effort. But again that's not pressing.
In my opinion, pressing actually starts from the back not the front. You need to push your own backline up to compress the pitch depending on how aggressive you want to be, the forwards and midfielders then need to work towards putting the opposition in certain unfavourable scenarios. Turning the ball in the final third is actually only an occasional bonus of pressing well, but often you're working to just get the opposition to lump it long to you so you can regain your own possession.
In terms of quantity, yes, but the stakes are higher. Look at the yellow card Maguire conceded against Watford that led to his sending off. Mistakes in the back line with a high press are deadly. It's easier to defend in a low block with the assurance that mistakes won't be punished as severely.
Rashford? Don't make me laugh.
Such a smart repartee. Without looking at the match of course.
Pressing wants you to try and play through it, not play a long pass. Thats one of its main weaknesses
Certainly, which is why a really proactive goalkeeper is such an essential part of the press. If the GK can sit high on the edge of their box and be prepared to come out and sweep, then there's a fairly decent sized zone in your half that the opposition can't pass into.
Yeah even around the 53" mark there was a comical attempt at a high press for 15s where we were just an uncoordinated mess with multiple players shouting at each other at different times. It was quite the sight.
I'm glad we got it right for the 1st goal though. Practice makes perfect.
Yes. I saw Rashford beat one player and then lose the ball only to have Bruno press one player and then the other player while Rashford just stood there. Rashford is not a presser.
Any player can be coached to press. It's not hard for a player to do. But the coach needs to know what he is doing 100%. He needs to be able to teach the player how to disguise the constant half fouls that good pressing teams do and get away with.
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Not always the case, depends on the philosophy. Klopp, for example, presses high to create attacking opportunities when they win the ball back. So they lay traps to lull you into trying to play out of it. As seen against Arsenal.
Guardiola and City press to regain control of the ball first and foremost. So rather than always tempting teams to play out, they primarily force teams to play a long ball (as seen against United), so that they can sweep up and regain control of the game.