Have we significantly improved since we got rid of LVG?

[Tomuś]

I think the 'obviously we've improved a great deal and everyone who disagrees is an idiot' narrative will come from the staunchest of LvG's critics and/or strongest Mourinho's advocates from the time he became available. Wouldn't make sense for them now to admit we, in fact, are still a shambles.

What I don't get is how can you say our style improved considerably. We were fecking boring under Van Gaal but at least we could string 2 or 3 passes together. We are erratic, boring and incompetent-looking under Mourinho but at least we can counter-attack once in a while. If there's difference for the better, it's miniscule. The difference is bigger when you compare the calibre of players willing to join United under their respective tenures which may well diminih seeing Mourinho stocks nosediving.

That saying I will defend Mourinho the same way I did with Van Gaal as they're proven winners. Maybe it's naive but hey. It's the critical point for Mourinho, this season is. If he has the shocker LvG had in his second season, it will have had to be said they were equally bad.

 

[Smores]

I think the 'obviously we've improved a great deal and everyone who disagrees is an idiot' narrative will come from the staunchest of LvG's critics and/or strongest Mourinho's advocates from the time he became available. Wouldn't make sense for them now to admit we, in fact, are still a shambles.

What I don't get is how can you say our style improved considerably. We were fecking boring under Van Gaal but at least we could string 2 or 3 passes together. We are erratic, boring and incompetent-looking under Mourinho but at least we can counter-attack once in a while. If there's difference for the better, it's miniscule. The difference is bigger when you compare the calibre of players willing to join United under their respective tenures which may well diminih seeing Mourinho stocks nosediving.

That saying I will defend Mourinho the same way I did with Van Gaal as they're proven winners. Maybe it's naive but hey. It's the critical point for Mourinho, this season is. If he has the shocker LvG had in his second season, it will have had to be said they were equally bad.

It's a million miles away for me because i have little interest watching players play slow simple passes back and forth, that's not entertainment. There was that breath stretch under him where the games were entertaining but it didn't last long. There's been a good 30% of games under Jose that have bored me but I've enjoyed the rest, it was probably in the 90% range under LvG.

Most english fans will prefer end to end and direct football i think.

 

[Treble]

Last season was better than any season under LVG. It is not clear that this season will be better too. If we finish outside top 4 and win feck all, the progress will be exactly zero. Or negative as we finihed 4th in LVG's first season and won a cup in his second season. If anything, a Jose meltdown season would amount to regress.

 

[Canagel]

No. Under LVG we recruited the wrong players to fit the philosophy and the consistency wasn't there against smaller teams but we always attempted to take the game to big teams and we had a clear identity - possession football and promoting the youth. We don't have any identity now. With a DOF to get the right players LVG's football would've succeeded. Would've been interesting to see how the 3rd year would've gone as was the intended plan. The 3 games against Liverpool, City and Spurs are still the best games we've played since SAF left. Just a shame we didn't play like that in every game.

 

[Footyislife]

Better yes. However, LVG never had players the caliber of Sanchez, Pogba, Lukaku, Matic, Bailly. Wasn't given quite the budget Mou was trusted with.

Either way neither Mou or LVG are the right fit for our club, but we are run by short term minded businessmen who just want us to play CL football so they can milk the brand. Until that changes and we get a manager/chairman that allows us to return to our identity, doubt we'll win CL or EPL

 

[Minimalist]

We haven’t significantly improved.

You’re just anti-LVG on a personal level if you think so. I wanted him gone and I wanted Mourinho to do the business but he hasn’t. I honestly have no more fondness for LVG as a person than I did for Mourinho when he came in. They both had most of their significant success in their past rather than recent history.

He’s failed. Wrong appointment ultimately. It’s even more damning because Mourinho has a way better squad to use than LVG had.

 

[ravi2]

We haven’t significantly improved.

You’re just anti-LVG on a personal level if you think so. I wanted him gone and I wanted Mourinho to do the business but he hasn’t. I honestly have no more fondness for LVG as a person than I did for Mourinho when he came in. They both had most of their significant success in their past rather than recent history.

He’s failed. Wrong appointment ultimately. It’s even more damning because Mourinho has a way better squad to use than LVG had.

I agree with this , we have improved but not significantly so.
We should be doing better with the squad at hand but its clear Jose is not being backed by the board as of late.

Even if/when Jose goes, the new manager will still have to contend with Ed and the rest of the shitty board

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Win %

Fergie 59.67
Moyes 52.94
Van Gaal 52.43
Mourinho 61.48

We’ve improved significantly.

 

[ivaldo]

We haven’t significantly improved.

You’re just anti-LVG on a personal level if you think so. I wanted him gone and I wanted Mourinho to do the business but he hasn’t. I honestly have no more fondness for LVG as a person than I did for Mourinho when he came in. They both had most of their significant success in their past rather than recent history.

He’s failed. Wrong appointment ultimately. It’s even more damning because Mourinho has a way better squad to use than LVG had.

I was very sympathetic to LVG, and wasn't entirely adverse to giving him another year, but the improvement under Jose is significant.

 

[Minimalist]

I was very sympathetic to LVG, and wasn't entirely adverse to giving him another year, but the improvement under Jose is significant.

Can’t be arsed with an argument but my immediate thoughts are:
LVG won a minor trophy and finished top four once.
Mourinho finished top four once and won two minor trophies.

Both styles of football (the average match, not arguing about highs and lows) makes the average fan want to gouge their eyes out.

It’s the same fecking shit. Just a different bloke and different way (I assume) of getting there.

 

[shabadu84]

Last season, in terms of post-Fergie:
- We scored our most league goals (+6 to our previous best)
- We conceded our fewest league goals (-1 to our previous best)
- 11 more points than our previous best (70)
- 2 places higher on the table than our previous best (4th)
- CL knockouts for the 2nd time

None of these are monumental achievements but it's better. Not leaps and bounds but looked a positive step forward in most ways. The road back to the top won't happen overnight and positives like these suggested to me that things were progressing somewhat. Not sure if that will be the case again after the start this season but I'm willing to hold out hope the football improves this year and that will be another step forward.

 

[Mr PG]

I don't think people realize how bad we were before LVG got here. No structure and only one tactic....hit ball to the wings and cross . Couldn't string 2 passes together. He did a lot but we just didn't have the players. A severely broken squad with like 5 number 10 players...Rooney, Kagawa, Herrera, Mata etc...and no pace

It says alot that Jose has spent additional $400m and were aren't finished yet. It's the players not the manager. We are forced to buy second rate players as world class players not available and those are the ones who can significantly improve us. The best players at City are ones they bought when Fergie was still here and were buying Obertan, Bebe etc.

 

[Smores]

No. Under LVG we recruited the wrong players to fit the philosophy and the consistency wasn't there against smaller teams but we always attempted to take the game to big teams and we had a clear identity - possession football and promoting the youth. We don't have any identity now. With a DOF to get the right players LVG's football would've succeeded. Would've been interesting to see how the 3rd year would've gone as was the intended plan. The 3 games against Liverpool, City and Spurs are still the best games we've played since SAF left. Just a shame we didn't play like that in every game.

One of the biggest moaners on here and now i find out you're an LvG fan, oh deary me

Your posts look so ridiculously hypocritical now that i can only summise your moaning is just bitterness

 

[ivaldo]

Can’t be arsed with an argument but my immediate thoughts are:
LVG won a minor trophy and finished top four once.
Mourinho finished top four once and won two minor trophies.

Both styles of football (the average match, not arguing about highs and lows) makes the average fan want to gouge their eyes out.

It’s the same fecking shit. Just a different bloke and different way (I assume) of getting there.

Really? I think when this is how you choose to bastardise stats to skew it to your point of r
view, there's really little point in discussing it.

 

[Raees]

It’s tough to call. Results wise I’d say if Jose was to stay till end of this season we will probably be sat here arguing we’ve gone backwards. That would be painting a slightly false narrative as I do think the squad Jose has built is stronger than the one LVG had at his disposal. If LVG was afforded the same amount of funds, I don’t think he had it in him to attract top calibre talent the way Jose has and his eye for a transfer was not as good as Jose’s generally.

Coaching wise, I think LVG had us playing a more structured system but his impact in the final third was poor and we were stodgy against weaker sides. Mourinhos team lacks structure but due to the quality of his signings which he deserves credit for, we are more threatening (not takin this season into account).

If we take both of their best seasons into account, Jose definitely edges it for me.

 

[AndyJ1985]

We've not improved, never mind significantly. We still play shite football, we still bore the arse off everyone, we still rely on DDG to bail us out, and we still raise our game against the top teams. We've moved precisely zero steps forward.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I marvel at people who 'demand entertaining football with a squad with a dead right flank (both at right back and right wing), a defence so weak midfield and attacks must over compensate defensively to protect, that the CEO has under invested in, on top of being saddled with the imbalance caused by keeping on the books players like Mata, plus bad CEO buys for the previous managerial regimes lie Darmian and Rojo, plus plain not good enough players like Jones, and Darmian who the CEO plain refuses to sell nor upgrade. But some how 'its all the managers fault'.....

 

[Minimalist]

Really? I think when this is how you choose to bastardise stats to skew it to your point of r
view, there's really little point in discussing it.

Enjoy your two higher places in the league while still playing the same shite football.

I think I comfortably represent the common United fan who doesn’t care about finishing 2nd or 4th if the football still bores us to tears.

 

[Nanotron]

Really? I think when this is how you choose to bastardise stats to skew it to your point of r
view, there's really little point in discussing it.

Really? Cant see how anyone can argue here with that. Unless you're watching a completely different game than the rest of us maybe. All those stats are pretty much meaningless, few more goals scored, few less conceded, mickey mouse cups most elite clubs now couldnt care less if they won (remember the only reason we went for the europa league was to get into the champions league, so its the equivalent of finishing 4th in the league). Judge progress on what you see week in week out. And he is right, explain to me why, if you think he is wrong because I cant see it either?

 

[Nanotron]

I marvel at people who 'demand entertaining football with a squad with a dead right flank (both at right back and right wing), a defence so weak midfield and attacks must over compensate defensively to protect, that the CEO has under invested in, on top of being saddled with the imbalance caused by keeping on the books players like Mata, plus bad CEO buys for the previous managerial regimes lie Darmian and Rojo, plus plain not good enough players like Jones, and Darmian who the CEO plain refuses to sell nor upgrade. But some how 'its all the managers fault'.....

Yeah because the manager can do nothing about that

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Yeah because the manager can do nothing about that

Do what exactly? Spend on players his CEO refuses to buy? Or use players like Rashford or Martal who are clearly ill suited there? Return the old Valencia or Young there? Partner the inexperienced Lindeloff and Bailly together? (Brighton anyone), or stick with the likes of Smalling, Rojo and Jones that his CEO refuses to sell or upgrade? Pray, tell us what exactly he has 'refused to do' about it?

 

[Tomuś]

It's a million miles away for me because i have little interest watching players play slow simple passes back and forth, that's not entertainment. There was that breath stretch under him where the games were entertaining but it didn't last long. There's been a good 30% of games under Jose that have bored me but I've enjoyed the rest, it was probably in the 90% range under LvG.

Most english fans will prefer end to end and direct football i think.

I hate tiki-taka (always preferred counter-attacking football) and could get bored watching Pep's Barca but it doesn't mean a jot when we talk about factual improvement.

 

[Jazz]

We haven't improved significantly no and this is with a better squad than LVG had.

Jose did good getting us back into CL and winning two trophies, but we are so disorganised on the pitch and no one knows what anyone is trying to achieve. With LVG it was clear, but the execution was at times dire. The club needed to have a DOF with LVG - it's not like he would have made a fuss about that because that's the model used in the clubs he'd managed before.

Have to say my favourite performance was against Liverpool at Anfield. Will never forget that game. We were dominant and played fantastic. I wish he had been able to get the team playing like that consistently.

The toxicity was too much in the end though and even though I have a lot of time for LVG as a person, I felt he couldn't succeed with such an atmosphere. I thought let's endorse Jose but I was completely wrong.

I suspect as well that Martial and Rashford would have been further ahead in their development and output. Other than that, who knows what would have happened in LVG's 3rd season, but I don't believe we would look as clueless as we do now.

 

[Tomuś]

We haven't improved significantly no and this is with a better squad than LVG had.

Jose did good getting us back into CL and winning two trophies, but we are so disorganised on the pitch and no one knows what anyone is trying to achieve. With LVG it was clear, but the execution was at times dire. The club needed to have a DOF with LVG - it's not like he would have made a fuss about that because that's the model used in the clubs he'd managed before.

Have to say my favourite performance was against Liverpool at Anfield. Will never forget that game. We were dominant and played fantastic. I wish he had been able to get the team playing like that consistently.

The toxicity was too much in the end though and even though I have a lot of time for LVG as a person, I felt he couldn't succeed with such an atmosphere. I thought let's endorse Jose but I was completely wrong.

I suspect as well that Martial and Rashford would have been further ahead in their development and output. Other than that, who knows what would have happened in LVG's 3rd season, but I don't believe we would look as clueless as we do now.

*quite often. Apart from that you nailed it imo.

 

[Nanotron]

Do what exactly? Spend on players his CEO refuses to buy? Or use players like Rashford or Martal who are clearly ill suited there? Return the old Valencia or Young there? Partner the inexperienced Lindeloff and Bailly together? (Brighton anyone), or stick with the likes of Smalling, Rojo and Jones that his CEO refuses to sell or upgrade? Pray, tell us what exactly he has 'refused to do' about it?

This shouldn't even need explaining but you should realize there are plenty of players on the market and an array of different tactics to use.

 

[Cassidy]

We have a better squad, thats about it

 

[Bobski]

Better question is would Utd be in a better position if Utd had backed LVG and allowed him the 2 years and 400 Mill Mou has had?

Would have required a rethink on his retirement plans and industrial quantities of Caffeine distributed to the fans.

Hated LVG football and his transfers, both in and out didn't convince. Being better than him is not an achievement, the same way that LVG doing more than Moyes means little.

 

[noodlehair]

I think the 'obviously we've improved a great deal and everyone who disagrees is an idiot' narrative will come from the staunchest of LvG's critics and/or strongest Mourinho's advocates from the time he became available. Wouldn't make sense for them now to admit we, in fact, are still a shambles.

What I don't get is how can you say our style improved considerably. We were fecking boring under Van Gaal but at least we could string 2 or 3 passes together. We are erratic, boring and incompetent-looking under Mourinho but at least we can counter-attack once in a while. If there's difference for the better, it's miniscule. The difference is bigger when you compare the calibre of players willing to join United under their respective tenures which may well diminih seeing Mourinho stocks nosediving.

That saying I will defend Mourinho the same way I did with Van Gaal as they're proven winners. Maybe it's naive but hey. It's the critical point for Mourinho, this season is. If he has the shocker LvG had in his second season, it will have had to be said they were equally bad.

It comes from the fact that no matter which way you look at it, we have improved significantly since Van Gal was our manager. We win more games, we score more goals, we have progressed further in cup competitions and won more trophies. We have better players. There is no single aspect you can point to where we haven't actually improved.

Whether we are still improving or going backwards is a very different question, considering our performances since Christmas and start to this season.

The style thing I get. We are poor to watch and our reluctance to actually even attempt to play football at times is understandably not acceptable to a lot of fans (I'm one of them), but even there, I think people have short memories. Most games under LVG were a 75 minute display of pointless, slow, sideways passes, with maybe a token attempt to score a goal for the first 5 minutes, and then from about 80 minutes onwards. I would regularly just stop paying attention to or watching games under LVG. That hasn't happened yet under Mourinho...the games are merely infuriating instead.

I mean, I get the criticism and lack of confidence in Mourinho getting this team to where people want it to be, particularly in terms of the way it plays. What I don't get is this weird obsession with comparing it to how we did under LVG...a manager who was sacked for not being good enough, and who during his second season was so bad that people were calling for Woodward to be sacked, just because he wasn't sacking LVG. How good we were then really is of no relevance. As we clearly weren't good enough then anyway, and Jose has been in charge long enough to be judging how much we are improving (or not) under him.

If LVG's job for example was simply to do better than Moyes, rather than to meet the actual expectations of the club, he would have kept his job.

 

[Jazz]

*quite often. Apart from that you nailed it imo.

Yes, my mistake. Bless him though. He tried to do what he thought was the best but needed to be a little less rigid with his philosophy. No problem with implementing new things, but the next manager must always keep in mind what Manchester United fans enjoy about their football.

 

[Buster15]

Win %

Fergie 59.67
Moyes 52.94
Van Gaal 52.43
Mourinho 61.48

We’ve improved significantly.

Wow. Assuming the numbers are correct (not doubting them) that is indeed a step improvement. I really do feel that if he can get the defense sorted the poor start will soon be a bad memory.

The key issue though is the style of football. I worry that the Spurs defeat and all the associated pressure will cause Jose to revert back to a safer approach in order to get the required results.

I just don't think we are good enough to play open expansive football and win consistently, let alone closing the massive points gap to MC.
Being headed by them is bad enough but to fail behind Liverpool as well....

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Wow. Assuming the numbers are correct (not doubting them) that is indeed a step improvement. I really do feel that if he can get the defense sorted the poor start will soon be a bad memory.

The key issue though is the style of football. I worry that the Spurs defeat and all the associated pressure will cause Jose to revert back to a safer approach in order to get the required results.

I just don't think we are good enough to play open expansive football and win consistently, let alone closing the massive points gap to MC.
Being headed by them is bad enough but to fail behind Liverpool as well....

Numbers are from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Manchester_United_F.C._managers#Statistics

Objectively, results are much better under Jose than the previous two managers. That's just a fact.

Not sure why it should be a surprise. We've reached three cup finals in two years and achieved a very respectable points total last year. You don't do that without winning a lot of games.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

We haven't improved significantly no and this is with a better squad than LVG had.

Jose did good getting us back into CL and winning two trophies, but we are so disorganised on the pitch and no one knows what anyone is trying to achieve. With LVG it was clear, but the execution was at times dire. The club needed to have a DOF with LVG - it's not like he would have made a fuss about that because that's the model used in the clubs he'd managed before.

Have to say my favourite performance was against Liverpool at Anfield. Will never forget that game. We were dominant and played fantastic. I wish he had been able to get the team playing like that consistently.

The toxicity was too much in the end though and even though I have a lot of time for LVG as a person, I felt he couldn't succeed with such an atmosphere. I thought let's endorse Jose but I was completely wrong.

I suspect as well that Martial and Rashford would have been further ahead in their development and output. Other than that, who knows what would have happened in LVG's 3rd season, but I don't believe we would look as clueless as we do now.

God could you have imagine Martial, Rashford, Lingard, maybe Gomes and Chong would be introduced in cups, some more random players coming through. The thing with LVG was - I thought he had a great understanding of football but his type of players were still stagnated in the 90's. People always call LVG a winner- I never regarded him as that so I had time for him & was actually willing to give him time to build a form of a structure; a plan. The players like Schneirdelin were no good though and thats why we needed someone to direct the transfers.

My biggest excitement was actually Giggs - who would be sitting there arguing to LVG about the mistakes he would be making but LVG would not listen. The one thing I wish was Giggs got a chance even for a game or two to change the mistakes that LVG was making consistently or simply asked the team to be less strict.

The only player that I'd actually want from this current lot is Pogba and as I said - he would have joined United no matter the Manager because he gets to be the big boy here.

Martial - Rashford
Lingard
Pogba ----New CM

Would have loved to see that continue since we have had nothing to really gain succesfull so far from Jose.

 

[noodlehair]

Win %

Fergie 59.67
Moyes 52.94
Van Gaal 52.43
Mourinho 61.48

We’ve improved significantly.

The bit about this that is most damning is that we were statistically worse under LVG than we were under Moyes. People spent an awful lot of time and energy pretending LVG was something that he really just wasn't. People are still at it now in this thread in fact.

Claiming Mourinho hasn't improved anything is missing the point really. Biickering about whether we are running roound the track any quicker than we were 2 years ago, rather than considering that we are not running round it quickly enough now regardless.

 

[Minimalist]

Aye because LVG was worse than Moyes according to win %.

Get better meds fs. Sometimes you have to learn how to use stats or close excel down for the day.

 

[B20]

Of course you've improved. The problem is that the method of improvement, Mourinho’s formula for succes, is not as implementable with this squad as with previous ones he's worked with and does not have long term prospects. The fact that Woodward is no longer backing that formula means that Mourinho's time is all but over.

Nothing terribly surprising that couldn't have been predicted when he joined, really. He's a results manager, not a long term builder. He's gotten better results, as expected, but not quite as good as hoped for. I would say he's more or less met expectations on that front though. It was a decent attempt, and that is as far as it will get.

 

[Stactix]

There has been improvement, those denying that are way over the top.
I do question whether if LVG had similar funds could he of got his philosophy some consistency?
Probably not to the level that Utd fans desired but atleast there was a clear direction.
This Mourinho side can't even counter attack to a Sunday League standard despite being a very defensive team.

Improvements - More goals scored / Less goals conceded - Still not enough goals scored or chances created though. Football especially after January was of a very poor quality for the majority of time.
Wins against all top 6, first time for a good few years?
Improvement in CL although sackworthy knockout performance/tactics.
Some excellent comebacks / Palace & City away.
Zlatan. Thanks for bringing him here Mourinho. Was a joy seeing him play for Utd.
Better league position.
League cup / Europa League ( Cup runs are always fun, I fecking hate those that turn there noses up at them. Especially the Europa league)

Negatives - Team still looks disjointed, most attackers don't look comfortable or consistent.
To many chances shipped, relying heavily on De Gea being De Gea.
Not enough chances created
Overly conservative in some games, from the off or after scoring. Some games the team went extreme defensive, at times it was like a richmans Tony Pulis side. One game I vaguely remember he brought off Rashford for Mctominay, spent the entire second half cramped in the box with no outlet. Manchester Utd you say? You sure the channel put the wrong team down?
No real 'style' the players look like individuals in many games, regardless of the result.
Many signings have failed or been overly poor/inconsistent. Sanchez comes to mind.

The issue so far this season is bar Shaw, not a single player has performed over the games they've played. Some played well in 1 but were garbage in another.

Right now, I think a DOF is needed and a plan is needed, let Mourinho carry on. Unless the next two games are losses, then I'd let Carrick/Mckenna team up. While planning a new coach for the next season. Give that coach whatever funds required to shape the team.

If things continue to go pear shaped, something needs to happen. I doubt Chelsea fans though there season would be as bad after winning the title.
I do think this needs to be Mourinhos last season though, unless something radical occurs and Mourinho changes his style of play or this side suddeny turn into peak 2004 Chelsea.
I don't really see the point of continuing?

 

[ivaldo]

Enjoy your two higher places in the league while still playing the same shite football.

I think I comfortably represent the common United fan who doesn’t care about finishing 2nd or 4th if the football still bores us to tears.

You know what you did. You're trying to portray it as no progression. It's a little sad. You can still make your point without pretending things haven't happened.

 

[andyjgt1]

No. Under LVG, Tuanzebe and TFM would be at least rotational starters for no fee, as opposed to being on loan with Bailly, who is not clearly better than either, and Lindelof, who is demonstrably worse, rotational starters costing 35 million each.

 

[ivaldo]

Really? Cant see how anyone can argue here with that. Unless you're watching a completely different game than the rest of us maybe. All those stats are pretty much meaningless, few more goals scored, few less conceded, mickey mouse cups most elite clubs now couldnt care less if they won (remember the only reason we went for the europa league was to get into the champions league, so its the equivalent of finishing 4th in the league). Judge progress on what you see week in week out. And he is right, explain to me why, if you think he is wrong because I cant see it either?

What stats? We are literally talking about one stat, the finishing position in the league. You can pretend it isn't progression all you like, but you're wrong. As I said to the other guy, you can make a perfectly valid point that progression hasn't been enough, but to pretend we haven't improved is just plain silly.

Yes, judge it by what we see. Like more trophies, more points, a higher league position. Ultimately if werent better, these things wouldn't happen. Period.

 

[JB08]

No. Under LVG, Tuanzebe and TFM would be at least rotational starters for no fee, as opposed to being on loan with Bailly, who is not clearly better than either, and Lindelof, who is demonstrably worse, rotational starters costing 35 million each.

I'm going to assume you're wumming?