Have we significantly improved since we got rid of LVG?

I'm sure Mourinho once said that the keeper winning player of the season means the team is shit. We were that way under LVG.

Well, De Gea won it this season. Therefore, according to Mourinho, we are shit.
 
finneh said:
Completely disagree. Salah has broken every record going this season because he's the most in form attacker pretty much ever, in a league with Cristiano Ronaldo in Fergie's best ever team. Kane has likewise shown over 100 PL games that he's one of the most consistently prolific strikers over the past 10-20 years. De Bruyne for 6 months was playing passes on a weekly basis that we have rarely seen In PL history.

However because it's United our fans treat our best player like he's some kind of golden ticket, despite everything good team having at least the same luxury.

If you put De Bruyne, Salah, Kane and De Gea for sale, three of the would sell for £150m+ because their contributions are so phenomenal. The other one might fetch £70m because the position he plays frankly can never be as influential.
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Agree to disagree then. For me, a goalkeeper will never be vital to the overall game plan. It's vital to have a quality goalkeeper, and they do save you, but they save you when your gameplan fails. If the opposition is getting chances constantly, that's the gameplan failing. If your goalkeeper has to make countless saves, that's the gameplan failing. If your star outfield player is constantly making things happen, that's the gameplan conceding. Surely you can see there's a big difference in that? One is using your best player to score goals, the other is having your best player need to stop the chances that the team already failed to prevent.

Edit: Or just like Gbenger said above. Mourinho said it himself. A goalkeeper winning player of the season means the team had a shit season and something isn't working. Ideally, you don't want your goalkeeper to ever have anything to do.
 
bosnian_red said:
Agree to disagree then. For me, a goalkeeper will never be vital to the overall game plan. It's vital to have a quality goalkeeper, and they do save you, but they save you when your gameplan fails. If the opposition is getting chances constantly, that's the gameplan failing. If your goalkeeper has to make countless saves, that's the gameplan failing. If your star outfield player is constantly making things happen, that's the gameplan conceding. Surely you can see there's a big difference in that? One is using your best player to score goals, the other is having your best player need to stop the chances that the team already failed to prevent.

Edit: Or just like Gbenger said above. Mourinho said it himself. A goalkeeper winning player of the season means the team had a shit season and something isn't working. Ideally, you don't want your goalkeeper to ever have anything to do.
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That's the point though isn't it? We're someone unfortunate in the sense that if we had a choice of having the best winger, best forward, best creator or best goalkeeper... We'd all choose the goalkeeper last.

The fact that we don't have the best forward, best creator or best winger means we obviously have to rely on the players we do have... One of which is the best goalkeeper in the world.

I still maintain though if you take the best player away from the top 4 sides United suffer the least and finish second by probably 15 points. We are less reliant on our best player than anyone else.

Despite finishing second United have a huge upward potential... I look at our squad and if Pogba or Sanchez play to their potential next season De Gea wouldn't be in the PotY conversation. Just like if Salah, Kane or De Bruyne were in our squads no-one would even be talking about De Gea as our main man.
 
finneh said:
That's the point though isn't it? We're someone unfortunate in the sense that if we had a choice of having the best winger, best forward, best creator or best goalkeeper... We'd all choose the goalkeeper last.

The fact that we don't have the best forward, best creator or best winger means we obviously have to rely on the players we do have... One of which is the best goalkeeper in the world.

I still maintain though if you take the best player away from the top 4 sides United suffer the least and finish second by probably 15 points. We are less reliant on our best player than anyone else.

Despite finishing second United have a huge upward potential... I look at our squad and if Pogba or Sanchez play to their potential next season De Gea wouldn't be in the PotY conversation. Just like if Salah, Kane or De Bruyne were in our squads no-one would even be talking about De Gea as our main man.
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I'll agree that theres a lot of potential in the squad. Dont think we can get there with mourinho though, as I think his way of playing is the main reason why pretty much all of our outfield players have failed to perform anywhere near to what they can.
 
I think we would've progressed more under LVG. There, I said it.

I remember the LVG era well and how boring our football could be, but I also saw flashes of brilliance every so often. At least he had a vision/philosophy that served as a foundation and could have been expanded upon. It's the same vision we see top clubs having implemented and expanded upon. LVG's mistake was not letting his players take risks. He really needed one or two special players who could make a difference in our team for it to work.

Mourinho's vision is the same we see mid and lower table teams implementing yet we are a much bigger club with a much bigger budget. It's quite frankly embarrassing and outdated. Give LVG the same team and at the very least the football at this point would be better. Have we improved since LVG left? Yes. But it would be very hard not to when you've spent a few hundred million since.
 
bosnian_red said:
I'll agree that theres a lot of potential in the squad. Dont think we can get there with mourinho though, as I think his way of playing is the main reason why pretty much all of our outfield players have failed to perform anywhere near to what they can.
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Again I disagree. You can see that we have a squad that's mentality been destroyed over recent years. We finally have a manager who is illustrating that hard work reaps rewards... Which I haven't seen for 6 years.

I see talented but lazy players like Pogba, Shaw and Martial being increasingly ostricised, whilst less talented players who're committed like Valenicia, Young, Lingard and Matic are flourishing.

It will take time to flush out the ethos that has poisoned the team, but we're well on the way. You don't get in the team because of the name on your shirt or the potential you might have. Gone are the days where Rooney strolls out under Moyes and Van Gaal serving utter tripe on a weekly basis. Save a few signings we're now playing the players who're fighting for the shirt. It's no surprise that tonight none of Lingard, Valencia, Lukaku, Sanchez and even Herrera started... We were devoid of fight.

Next season will progress further. Indolent players like Martial will see less gametime in favour of the aggressive Sanchez. The laissez fairre Pogba will have competition so that his show pony routine will result in a one way trip to the bench. We'll have competition in our full back positions as the lazy or inable Shaw/Darmian will be replaced by better, hungrier players.

I think people underestimate the damage Van Gaal and Moyes did to this club... They genuinely obliterated the mentality Fergie created and created a squad of soft losers.

Can you imagine Roy Keane in a dressing room with Shaw, Martial, Pogba and Darmian? Jesus Christ we'd have won the Premier League but all four would have ended the season in wheelchairs.
 
Smithy_123 said:
I think we would've progressed more under LVG. There, I said it.

I remember the LVG era well and how boring our football could be, but I also saw flashes of brilliance every so often. At least he had a vision/philosophy that served as a foundation and could have been expanded upon. It's the same vision we see top clubs having implemented and expanded upon. LVG's mistake was not letting his players take risks. He really needed one or two special players who could make a difference in our team for it to work.

Mourinho's vision is the same we see mid and lower table teams implementing yet we are a much bigger club with a much bigger budget. It's quite frankly embarrassing and outdated. Give LVG the same team and at the very least the football at this point would be better. Have we improved since LVG left? Yes. But it would be very hard not to when you've spent a few hundred million since.
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When exactly did you see that brilliance?
Lvg would have us playing better football? Not really. No proof for that at all. He had us playing shit and no special player would change that. Why did he buy mediocre players instead of special ones?
 
We might have progressed a little in terms of league position but we’ve certainly not progressed to watch.
 
Our rivals getting Guardiola and Klopp was a big blow. Mourinho is a selfish man, only worried about his own trophy collection but never shows like he has any responsibility towards the fans, he rarely mentions the fans because they are peripheral to him. Can't wait until he is gone tbh.
 
We're higher in the table.
We are winning more trophies.
We are attracting bigger players.
We seem to have appeased DDG.
etc etc

Yes, we have significantly improved.
 
The real question mark comes from next season. Mourinho will be under real pressure to get it right. Think it’s going to be a busy summer. I know he said there wouldn’t be many coming in but I think the evidence is there for all to see, slow, bereft if ideas, 1 dimensional, no heart, lack of quality
We really need a big injection of pace, directness, imagination and passion
 
golden_blunder said:
The real question mark comes from next season. Mourinho will be under real pressure to get it right. Think it’s going to be a busy summer. I know he said there wouldn’t be many coming in but I think the evidence is there for all to see, slow, bereft if ideas, 1 dimensional, no heart, lack of quality
We really need a big injection of pace, directness, imagination and passion
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If we don’t win a big trophy next season then he needs to go. It’s quite simple as that. You hire someone like Mourinho to win you big trophies. If he doesn’t deliver that within 3 years then there is little point in continuing.
 
golden_blunder said:
The real question mark comes from next season. Mourinho will be under real pressure to get it right. Think it’s going to be a busy summer. I know he said there wouldn’t be many coming in but I think the evidence is there for all to see, slow, bereft if ideas, 1 dimensional, no heart, lack of quality
We really need a big injection of pace, directness, imagination and passion
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He's under no pressure. Not from the board. Only in here he's under pressure. 2 cups, 1 final and 2nd position is as secure as its get in epl, unless you're managing barca or madrid or bayern, but even there a manager wont likely to get sacked for achieving what jose achieved. Like it or hate it.

You cant seriously sacked a manager for not winning the epl, there's 3-4 teams that can win it in any given season.

I dont think the next manager would suddenly win the league, which is something he has to do to better jose. Not even if we give him 3 years and lots of money. Not saying we can never win the league again but the possibility of the next manager doing worse than jose is not small.

Esthetic aside off course. But a bad year or two getting out of top 4 could have a domino effect, something liverpool knew best thinking they're too big not to win it.
 
Sky1981 said:
He's under no pressure. Not from the board. Only in here he's under pressure. 2 cups, 1 final and 2nd position is as secure as its get in epl, unless you're managing barca or madrid or bayern, but even there a manager wont likely to get sacked for achieving what jose achieved. Like it or hate it.

You cant seriously sacked a manager for not winning the epl, there's 3-4 teams that can win it in any given season.

I dont think the next manager would suddenly win the league, which is something he has to do to better jose. Not even if we give him 3 years and lots of money. Not saying we can never win the league again but the possibility of the next manager doing worse than jose is not small.

Esthetic aside off course. But a bad year or two getting out of top 4 could have a domino effect, something liverpool knew best thinking they're too big not to win it.
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You seriously think Real Madrid would accept finishing 16 points behind Barca, going out in the R16 almost without a shot on target over 2 legs against a crap team while playing awful football every week? :lol:
 
Seven Seas Sardines said:
You seriously think Real Madrid would accept finishing 16 points behind Barca, going out in the R16 almost without a shot on target over 2 legs against a crap team while playing awful football every week? :lol:
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So if the next manager dont win the league you'll still be complaining 24/7 for him to be sacked? Or only if he's named jose?
 
Bojan11 said:
If we don’t win a big trophy next season then he needs to go. It’s quite simple as that. You hire someone like Mourinho to win you big trophies. If he doesn’t deliver that within 3 years then there is little point in continuing.
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I really don't think it is. He has won the Europa League, the League Cup and possibly the FA Cup and most likely finished second in the League in his two years at the club. If he had done all that and we were playing gangbusters all the time and it was truly exciting to watch I think the majority would be OK with where things stood. It's the mind numbing, horrible product that we are being fed week after week after week after week ad infinitum that is just soul destroying as far as I'm concerned. Every time I come back to England I always try and see a few games. I am probably coming back this summer and for the first time in a long time I'm tempted to just not bother.
 
charlton66 said:
I really don't think it is. He has won the Europa League, the League Cup and possibly the FA Cup and most likely finished second in the League in his two years at the club. If he had done all that and we were playing gangbusters all the time and it was truly exciting to watch I think the majority would be OK with where things stood. It's the mind numbing, horrible product that we are being fed week after week after week after week ad infinitum that is just soul destroying as far as I'm concerned. Every time I come back to England I always try and see a few games. I am probably coming back this summer and for the first time in a long time I'm tempted to just not bother.
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Well it is simple.

If he wins the champions league or premier league playing that way then nobody will care and he will get another season.

When I said big trophy I mean Premier league and Champions league. I’m not talking about the others.
 
Bojan11 said:
Well it is simple.

If he wins the champions league or premier league playing that way then nobody will care and he will get another season.

When I said big trophy I mean Premier league and Champions league. I’m not talking about the others.
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I agree that is true but I think the reverse is also the case. If he keeps winning second tier trophies but we look really really good doing it I think the majority would not be too upset with that. The trouble is we are doing neither. We are playing dire football and not winning (or even challenging) for the top trophies. IMLTHO at least one of those has to change.
 
Di Maria's angel said:
Always think of this thread when I want a laugh.

Anyway, two-thirds into the season and we've equaled our goal tally from 15/16 - GF 49 GA 35 with 66 points. And, at 53 points, we're 13 points from equaling our points tally.

With Sanchez on the way, I can see us attaining around 85 points and scoring at least 75 goals. Massive improvements.
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I always think of this post when I want a laugh.
 
We finished second so in that sense yes. But the the football is still awful to watch if not worse, bar 45 minutes against spurs, and we have better players than LVG had. Could also argue LVG actually had a clear style and his best 11 for the most part. Jose still hasn't got that and it's the 3rd fecking season.

That said the 433 run against city, spurs and liverpool under LVG still is the best i've seen from us since Fergie. Have no idea why LVG abandoned that "philosophy"
 
Our football isn't great but there's really no comparison IMO. There was a period under LVG where we went several games in a row without registering a single shot on target. As boring as we may be nowadays, we do at least attempt to score goals and don't just pass the ball backwards for 90 minutes.
 
Of course we have. We finished 2nd last season half way into a rebuilding job, won the Europa League. Only Woodward knows why he's decided to stop backing the manager and halt the progress of our football club.
 
From an outsiders no I don't really think United have progressed much.

Looking at points the closest United have come to winning the title since Sir Alex Ferguson retired has been under LVG and not Mourinho. Yes the football was dire against parked buses and the team looked toothless in attack but against the top 6 you could see glimpses of the way LVG wanted United to play.

The man is a serial winner no matter where he goes and has won champions league with Ajax playing mainly youth players.

Mourinho is better for instant success or at least was but at the moment he has not delivered. With LVG Martial and Rashford looked very promising and Depay has,shown his class in French league.

He had his philosophy and it's clear he didn't want to play that way but was limited by his players Rooney being the only senior striker in the team and still barely missed out on top 4 with an injury crisis.

Would LVG season 3 have been better in the long term? Well we can only assume who knows what would have happened but I'm sure at the very least Rooney would have been phased out and Martial and Rashford would have been trusted more.

If Mourinho wins a trophy and gets top 4 then yes I can say United have made good progress, if not and he's sacked then no I have to say the club will have gone backwards and right back at square one with aging players on high wages who the best manager may wqbtnto get rid off and the cycle continues.

Without a long term strstegic plan for the club with a director of football i can only see the cycle restarting. Controversial it may be LVG said he would have had United playing like City if he had more time and seeing want he had done with Barcelona and Bayern I feel like he would have taken United on the path of recovery playing good football with a youthful core of players.

To briefly elaborate on his signings

Blind, extremely good Ball playing defender that doesn't suit Mourinho's system, a strong physical presence like Bailey would have circumvented his physical limitations.

Herrera, a good balanced midfielder but should only be a squad rotation player.

Bastian well he was past it but no one really knew it at the time besides Bayern after.his amazing world cup. Not a good signing and a mistake.

Di Maria never had his heart set on United and was quickly phased out. An expensive mistake but impossible to see without foresight.

All of his signings that didn't work out were either meant it be back up players, or were very good players prior to joining United.

I personally think Blind is a good CDM and more creative than Matic, Depay would add pace and dribbling compared to Sanchez and much lower wages' a front 3 of Depay Martial and Rashford with a creative attacking midfield is nothing to laugh up. Especially if he got some of his transfer targets. LVG like mourinho after him claims that he wasn't backed in the transfer market and I have to believe him.

Just my 2 cents on the whole situation.
 
Lvg with a Director of Football of what players must be bought would have been great for an additional year.

He restricted our team but I liked the strong structure to his football he tried to use & us being in control against the big guns was great to watch. I was also excited to see martial & Rashford in a partnership under Lvg with Lingard playing as Cam. Smalling & Blind in a back 3. And the introduction of players like Chong, angel gomes would have happened by now - whilst tuenzebe and TFM would be in the squad.

Think pogba would be here without Jose anyway - since it's him being the main man at United that bought him here.
 
RedFish said:
Of course we have. We finished 2nd last season half way into a rebuilding job, won the Europa League. Only Woodward knows why he's decided to stop backing the manager and halt the progress of our football club.
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You didn't hear Zidane parted ways with Real?
 
Aloysius's Back 3 said:
Lvg with a Director of Football of what players must be bought would have been great for an additional year.

He restricted our team but I liked the strong structure to his football he tried to use & us being in control against the big guns was great to watch. I was also excited to see martial & Rashford in a partnership under Lvg with Lingard playing as Cam. Smalling & Blind in a back 3. And the introduction of players like Chong, angel gomes would have happened by now - whilst tuenzebe and TFM would be in the squad.

Think pogba would be here without Jose anyway - since it's him being the main man at United that bought him here.
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I would have thought the progression would have been for LVG to become the director and Giggs would have been the manager. I think that was the overall plan until Jose got sacked at Chelsea.

I actually quite enjoyed the technical aspects of LVG ball even tho it was clearly missing a driving force to make the decisions in midfield and take responsibility. It was still a work in progress but in general I think it was of a higher technical standard compared to how we play now, people will probably see it differently and just look at league positioning and trophy count but we also have a much higher standard of player currently within the ranks.

For me football quality hasn’t improved, it’s actualy gotten much worse.
 
YES WE HAVE IMPROVED SIGNIFICANTLY.

The real question is "Has Jose taken us as far as he will take us?"; or rather "Will we be able to make the 'next step' under Jose?"
 
Andersons Dietician said:
I would have thought the progression would have been for LVG to become the director and Giggs would have been the manager. I think that was the overall plan until Jose got sacked at Chelsea.

I actually quite enjoyed the technical aspects of LVG ball even tho it was clearly missing a driving force to make the decisions in midfield and take responsibility. It was still a work in progress but in general I think it was of a higher technical standard compared to how we play now, people will probably see it differently and just look at league positioning and trophy count but we also have a much higher standard of player currently within the ranks.

For me football quality hasn’t improved, it’s actualy gotten much worse.
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Historically speaking - whilst some people might argue against it; I think LVG is great at introducing a style of football or a structure of a basic team. Nothing great that could win the league; but what we saw during him was a clear strategy in comparison to what we see now. He wanted United to control the match; which would normally lead to the team being overtly patient with the ball rather than taking risks. However right at the end of the season; I thought I saw things turning marginally better; but by then the damage was done.

LVG has had a some good players bought like Robben and Ribery for Bayern I think whilst he has had some questionable players like the guys he bought for Barcelona. I find in terms of all his football - its his understanding of the better players which has been left more stagnant; so I dont know if he could be the best in dictating transfers from up top.

However; for me the fact that we went from a manager who was part of a long term plan - to a manger who is probably the most short termm plan option you can get was a stupid mistake. I liked the fact that Giggs was there sitting next to LVG and contemplating/fighting about the things that should be changed - I felt changings LVG's wrong doing's would have made us play better. Instead we ditched the long term option, got Jose who cleared everything,started over, turned the likes of rashford and martial to same wing rotating wingers bought a target man etc etc. There was no improvement of the team before; just a rebuilding of chelsea (lukaky,Matic,Willian) here at old trafford.
 
We have improved but the competition has improved much more, LVG couldn’t compete against much weaker opposition in his final season.

LVG was going nowhere and people like to look at his time through rose tinted glasses or make out he would have suddenly started getting everything right. People forget he was converting Rooney to a midfielder not phasing him out and was clueless in the transfer market.

Keeping LVG for another season would have only set us back further, like Moyes and Mourinho his best days were behind him and his tactics were negative and outdated.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
Our football isn't great but there's really no comparison IMO. There was a period under LVG where we went several games in a row without registering a single shot on target. As boring as we may be nowadays, we do at least attempt to score goals and don't just pass the ball backwards for 90 minutes.
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This never happened. LVG's football was not very exciting to watch but there's no need to exaggerate wildly.
 
In short, no.

Squad has holes, playing style is poor and the manager seems to have lost the dressing room.

Staggering how little progress Jose has made with us
 
I beleive we have improved a good amount since then however I don't know whether we are better now than we would have been at this stage if Van Gaal had stayed.
 
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