Has political correctness actually gone mad?

Kostur said:
:lol:

I'm not even going to pretend I'm remotely interested in discussing with the 'school of thought' you seem to represent, sorry, enjoy going to your black marches, KOD demonstrations and other trash.

IIRC I've already had a discussion of this sort with you when the G20 kicked off and Antifa were running riots in Hamburg. It's not not worth neither mine nor yours time.
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You're recalling it wrongly and I'm not surprised by your reluctance to address my points since you seem to represent the 'school of blindness' that nowadays triumphs in Poland. Turning a blind eye to the weakest ever diplomatic position of Poland, effective devastation of the army, barbaric assault on Constitution and the judiciary, attempts made against independent media, public media turned into propaganda machine, prosecutor's office and police with other agencies working on political demand, changes to electoral regulations suiting only the ruling party, unprepared 'reform' of educational system with scandalously backward changes to subject programs, war against cultural institutions, taking means from greatly working NGOs and an attempt to take full control behind the funding (which would turn them into GOs), constraining the right to protest in public etc. etc.
I'd have almost forgotten about the biggest in local history and broadest level of nepotism as well as public thievery deprived of excuse in form of individual expertise to hide behind (proven by journalists from 'DziennikGazetaPrawna').

I consider myself representing centristic political point of view and believe that alternating right wing parties with left wing ones, even if far from ideal, is the best thing that a democratic system can offer. But hey, I'm probably also a communist or post-communist, right? Allergy to substantive discussion isn't that uncommon, however it speaks volumes about such folk. Keep on sleeping nicely, like a newborn baby. :rolleyes:

Staying on topic, the ruling party in Poland decided 2 years ago to throw political correctness out of the window, which led to xenophobia, racism, anti-semitism to creep out from beneath the surface. These politics are generally 'only' anti-islamic in rhetoric but the ugly part of society can now more freely express their hatred. Moreover even that there's law forbidding it, prosecution and police have to be hard pushed to carry out their duties. So it's actually gone mad without political correctness in here.
 
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Buchan said:
@Kostur, sorry if it's not the thread for such a discussion, but aren't there large demonstrations taking place in Poland lately?
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This is what streams to Western countries, that there's no democracy in Poland, that this is a xenophobic country, that women are badly treated (just listen to Belgian/Dutch 'experts' in European parliament. All bollocks, the truth is, there are a few hundreds people (leftists) on the street, most often the same communist-born faces from the Russian branch of Security Service (how awful!) that opressed the Polish before 90s and their children etc. Plus the celebs, as Kostur pointed out. Why are they protesting? because they can't drain the money out anymore and are cut (the opressors) the outrageous pensions taking it to the average one. That's why it may sound strange to some but the left-wing in Poland is not the left-wing of England. Let's just say that even the internet doesn't give one freedom to say the truth about what the Heads of the left-wing have been involved in the last 20 years. Bear that in mind before you call a Pole a fascist. It's like with this the Independent (or should I say ' The dependant' ?) article which called the Independence March a Fascist March. One of the journos here actually went there and had a bit of fun with the marchers (big portion of whom were families with little kids) asking them if they know they're fascists. That excuse for a newspaper should pay a top dollar for this ignorant, braindead and lazy 'journalism' but nothing will happen obviously.

Obviously nobody listens to people of different origin and race saying Poland is the most tolerant country they've been to. Michnik, the extreme leftist, is a guy who created the route for Polish media to reach Western countries, that's why it happens. People in Poland are mostly very happy now with the right-wing at the helm, families are getting financial help (finally), there's less and less money being wasted and drained out of the country, mines and other typical Polish industrial factories are being re-opened and succesfull. The recent statistics show the ever-growing rise in our happiness.

As Kostur, I consider myself to be impartial but IF I have to vote, then the choice is simple, really. 4 of the most important things in a country is much improved: a) the Army (the leftist left 40k soldiers lol, now the plan is to have 200k by the next 3 years - already over 100k) b) unemployment as low as ever (7/8% I think) c) social benefits for newly-born infants meaning some of the families can finally buy new clothes or go for a holiday and where are they going to put that money? into the Polish shops, tourism places and so on. d) police stations being re-opened and better financed. PLUS something I like much - no inferiority complex towards anyone which was basically what we've been fed under the left-wing coalition. My sister's husband is an Englishman and he says: 'Last time I was here (8 years ago) it was all gloomy, ppl with their heads down. Now you're like 'feck off, I'm Polish'.


Sorry for spitting it out but I feel if it won't be us, normal Polish citizens, you're going to be fed rubbish. You have the testimony of the Polish on here it's up to you if you believe a skillfully recorded 'protest' apparently consisting of thousands and thousands of ppl (lol) or the truth first hand.
 
Thank you, @Tomuś. What an eloquent, excellent post.

For what it's worth, the marches were described as 'fascist' here in the U.K. media but anyone with an ounce of critical thinking knows to not take everything the media says at face value, but to consider what ulterior motive they are trying to serve. I also saw large banners at that protest with 'No to Nazism' symbols but, of course, they're never reported.
 
Buchan said:
Thank you, @Tomuś. What an eloquent, excellent post.

For what it's worth, the marches were described as 'fascist' here in the U.K. media but anyone with an ounce of critical thinking knows to not take everything the media says at face value, but to consider what ulterior motive they are trying to serve. I also saw large banners at that protest with 'No to Nazism' symbols but, of course, they're never reported.
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Dishonest mainstream media, they were obviously skeptical centrists at the rally, something you can decide with some good critical thinking.

Demonstrators with faces covered chanted “Pure Poland, white Poland!” and “Refugees get out!”. A banner hung over a bridge that read: “Pray for Islamic Holocaust.”
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Many carried the national white-and-red flag while others held banners depicting a falanga, a far-right symbol dating to the 1930s. A demonstrator interviewed by state television TVP said he was on the march to “remove Jewry from power”.
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TVP, which reflects the conservative government’s line, called it a “great march of patriots”, and in its broadcasts described the event as one that drew mostly ordinary Poles expressing their love of Poland, not extremists.

“It was a beautiful sight,” the interior minister, Mariusz Błaszczak, said. “We are proud that so many Poles have decided to take part in a celebration connected to the Independence Day holiday.”
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Edit: AFAIK - the Nazi banner is associated not just with the ideology of Nazism but the invasion and occupation of Poland by Hitler, which might explain the anti-Nazi symbol among far-right people.
 
berbatrick said:
Dishonest mainstream media, they were obviously skeptical centrists at the rally, something you can decide with some good critical thinking.



Edit: AFAIK - the Nazi banner is associated not just with the ideology of Nazism but the invasion and occupation of Poland by Hitler, which might explain the anti-Nazi symbol among far-right people.
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There may have been an element of the crowd in attendance on such grounds, but the videos and images I saw depict a different view entirely overall.
 
So a few months ago a film was released called wonder Woman, whose main star was a woman who got the job pretty much solely on the way she looks as she isnt a very good actress and spends most of the film in a scantly glad outfit and that film was pretty much held up as an incredible step forward for women in film, now a followup called Justice league is coming out and people are offended that amazons(wonder womans people) are been sexualised......

plus characters in comic book films are always sexualised... how often have we seen slow mo's of Chris Pratt, Chris Evans, Chris Hemsworth or Henry Cavil taking their top off for no reason, have we ever had people in complain about that?

honestly i must be missing something cos it seems completely random what people are offended by and what people class as feminism
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/7ccgzz/poland_nationalists_sing_refugees_feck_off_to/

http://wyborcza.pl/10,82983,2263420...aatakowane-podczas.html?disableRedirects=true
(read with google translate or watch the video)

The largely young crowd shot off roman candles and many chanted “fatherland,” carrying banners that read “White Europe,” “Europe Will Be White” and “Clean Blood.” Some of the marchers flew in from Hungary, Slovakia and Spain and waved flags and symbols that those countries used during their wartime collaboration with Nazi Germany.

A number of people in the crowd said they didn’t belong to any neo-fascist or racist organization but didn’t see a problem with the overall tone of what has become Poland’s biggest independence day event.

“There are of course nationalists and fascists at this march,” said Mateusz, a 27-year-old wrapped in a Polish flag, “I’m fine with it. I’m just happy to be here.”

The march, organized by a group called the National Radical Camp, underscores the rightward politics of a growing section of Polish youth. The Radical Camp presents itself as the heir to a 1930s fascist movement of the same name, which fought to rid Poland of Jews in the years just before the Holocaust. A second group, All Polish Youth, also named after an anti-Jewish interwar movement, co-organized it.
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The Radical Camp has been holding independence-day marches since 2009. Until several years ago, it struggled to attract more than a few hundred people. In the past three years, it has become the largest independence-day occasion in Poland, and one of the largest nationalist marches of its kind anywhere in Europe. Saturday’s was expected to be the largest ever. Police estimated the crowd at 60,000.

The Radical Camp’s followers argue, on their social-media accounts and in their literature, that the influx of Syrian refugees into Europe is part of a conspiracy driven by Jewish financiers, who are working with Communists in the European Union to bring Muslims into Europe, and with them, Shariah law and homosexuality.

The group has regularly held events to mark a 1936 pogrom against Jews. Its symbols were displayed on a banner that appeared over a bridge in Poznan, reading: “Pray for Islamic Holocaust.”

This year, the group said it was adopting a new slogan, a quote from a July speech here by President Donald Trump : “We want God.”
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It argues that Polish people should nationalize the assets belonging to foreign corporations and distribute the profits across an ethnically homogenous state
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Still, the fear that Poland is under siege by distant elites has captured the imagination of some here, as has the worry that hordes of immigrants could soon pour over the border. Government-controlled media broadcasts near-nightly reports on crimes committed by Muslims in Europe. On Saturday, Polish state television called the procession a “great march of patriots.
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from: https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/po...h-march-draws-thousands-in-capital-1510429006
for bold: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevism
 
Nytram Shakes said:
So a few months ago a film was released called wonder Woman, whose main star was a woman who got the job pretty much solely on the way she looks as she isnt a very good actress and spends most of the film in a scantly glad outfit and that film was pretty much held up as an incredible step forward for women in film, now a followup called Justice league is coming out and people are offended that amazons(wonder womans people) are been sexualised......

honestly i must be missing something cos it seems completely random what people are offended by and what people class as feminism
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Possibly that different people view different things... differently?
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Certainly one way to establish a narrative. Given the context of what was actually said, you would have to assume it is more of a religion issue than a race issue.
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The so called defence of christmas has a sordid history of racism masquerading as religious expression. You only need to look at the public figures leading it. It's not the pope, it's not priests or even simple devout people. It's white supremacists and the far right using it as a dog whistle to attack racial and religious minorities. And I have little intention of pretending their arguments aren't racist.
 
Silva said:
The so called defence of christmas has a sordid history of racism masquerading as religious expression. You only need to look at the public figures leading it. It's not the pope, it's not priests or even simple devout people. It's white supremacists and the far right using it as a dog whistle to attack racial and religious minorities. And I have little intention of pretending their arguments aren't racist.
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What? If there are swaths of examples of far right white supremacists denouncing the fact that Christmas is becoming more multi cultural, then why on earth would you not choose to post that to highlight your concern? Especially if they are white supremacists and you can make the correlation between what they are saying in regards to Christmas and previous acts of racism.

From a quick search on twitter the bloke who mentioned the boycott didn't have any reference of any political leaning or any racial comments. Mostly just identified as a Fulham season ticket holder (I won't argue his appalling taste in teams).

I am not asking you to pretend anything, actually the opposite. That article and your "editorialising" were both examples of this mindset that if someone says something that possibly indicates they are on the other side to you that they instantly must be in most violent or nonsensical extreme of that group. Both sides are equally guilty of this and it is the reason this asinine back and forth "You're a racist bigot".."You're a snowflake ****" bollox will go on indefinitely.

Ironically you seemed to make a similar point over the last two pages about how people don't actually all fit into a specific side, what with us all being unique and all. Then a couple pages later you bring out the "WS" words.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
What? If there are swaths of examples of far right white supremacists denouncing the fact that Christmas is becoming more multi cultural, then why on earth would you not choose to post that to highlight your concern? Especially if they are white supremacists and you can make the correlation between what they are saying in regards to Christmas and previous acts of racism.

From a quick search on twitter the bloke who mentioned the boycott didn't have any reference of any political leaning or any racial comments. Mostly just identified as a Fulham season ticket holder (I won't argue his appalling taste in teams).

I am not asking you to pretend anything, actually the opposite. That article and your "editorialising" were both examples of this mindset that if someone says something that possibly indicates they are on the other side to you that they instantly must be in most violent or nonsensical extreme of that group. Both sides are equally guilty of this and it is the reason this asinine back and forth "You're a racist bigot".."You're a snowflake ****" bollox will go on indefinitely.

Ironically you seemed to make a similar point over the last two pages about how people don't actually all fit into a specific side, what with us all being unique and all. Then a couple pages later you bring out the "WS" words.
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I wasn't going to bother doing much digging because it is normally quite easy to spot the racism in the Christmas shit, but your post had me doubting myself. Took about 10 seconds to find these posts from people who are claiming to be boycotting the store.





The top person quoted in the guardian article also seems to have a lot to say about Islam, none of nice of course: https://twitter.com/search?l=&q=muslim from:krokarr&src=typd
 
Silva said:
I wasn't going to bother doing much digging because it is normally quite easy to spot the racism in the Christmas shit, but your post had me doubting myself. Took about 10 seconds to find these posts from people who are claiming to be boycotting the store.





The top person quoted in the guardian article also seems to have a lot to say about Islam, none of nice of course: https://twitter.com/search?l=&q=muslim from:krokarr&src=typd
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Bingo. That refusal or not feeling the need to do digging and just lumping everyone in together is exactly the problem. I can't see the second tweet you just posted but it seemed pretty quick to find so surely it is worth actually taking the few seconds to actually identify a racist rather than just working from the assumption that people on a specific side are racist? Not only for potency of an argument but also so that something can actually be done about it.

That first one guy you just posted again talked about Christianity and then essentially denied being a racist. Not what I would call a white supremacist but definitely an idiot and from looking at his twitter has quite an issue with Islam also seems to have an issue with the left in general. I am not sure if the "alt-right" is still the go to term but possibly one of them.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Bingo. That refusal or not feeling the need to do digging and just lumping everyone in together is exactly the problem. I can't see the second tweet you just posted but it seemed pretty quick to find so surely it is worth actually taking the few seconds to actually identify a racist rather than just working from the assumption that people on a specific side are racist? Not only for potency of an argument but also so that something can actually be done about it.

That first one guy you just posted again talked about Christianity and then essentially denied being a racist. Not what I would call a white supremacist but definitely an idiot and from looking at his problem has quite an issue with Islam also seems to have an issue with the left in general. I am not sure if the "alt-right" is still the go to term but possibly one of them.
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Follow the links mate. I've given you all you need now. The second one is the guy I quoted on the next post.
 
And apologies, it may be my browser but for the two most recent ones I just see that

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user)

Thing rather than the tweet.
 
Silva said:
Follow the links mate. I've given you all you need now. The second one is the guy I quoted on the next post.
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To be honest I am happy that you went and found some examples of actual racists (Working from the assumption due to being unable to see the tweets). Those are the people who should be highlighted and have the attention brought to them.

I have a hell of a lot of problems with the right but one of my main problems with the left is the whole idea of "systemic racism" or systemic anything. This unidentifiable boogeyman that is impossible to actually combat due to the vagueness of it all. Even white supremacist has become a vague term.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
And apologies, it may be my browser but for the two most recent ones I just see that

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user)

Thing rather than the tweet.
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They both have a history of calling Islamaphobic content on their twitter profiles. I was using the advanced search to filter them, dunno why you can't see it though. They're the same people quoted in the article I posted, took a matter of seconds to find racist content.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
To be honest I am happy that you went and found some examples of actual racists (Working from the assumption due to being unable to see the tweets). Those are the people who should be highlighted and have the attention brought to them.
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It's the exact same profiles. And it's piss easy to know exactly what they'll contain because they're rip offs of places like Britain first or prime-time Fox News. The so called defence of christmas isn't new and has a well developed and easily spotted vocabulary. One full of racist dog whistles. Once you've been unfortunate enough to spend as much time as I have on their corners of the internet or watching the news channels they watch you'll spot them just as easily.

OverratedOpinion said:
I have a hell of a lot of problems with the right but one of my main problems with the left is the whole idea of "systemic racism" or systemic anything. This unidentifiable boogeyman that is impossible to actually combat due to the vagueness of it all. Even white supremacist has become a vague term.
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There's nothing unidentifiable about it, it's all laid out in the stats. Racial minorities are more likely to be arrested and convicted for similar crimes to white people. Less likely to get the same jobs (as compared to when the selection process is blind. They're more likely to be underestimated by their very own teachers who are meant to look after them - this is evident in them getting higher grades in final exams, where the marks are given by anonymous markers that don't know them. There's a million other metrics which show the discrepancies.
 
Silva said:
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I can actually see that one. It is the same bloke again, seems to be a little too invested and so he comes across as insensitive.

I must say I do find it strange that it is accepted to criticise Christianity but seen as morally abhorrent to do so with Islam. Just looking at that tweet he clearly uses harmful hyperbole but there is truth in the fact that a number of Mosques have had roots in criminal activity and acts of terror. Being a harbinger for that much in the same way for the Catholic church and acts of paedophilia. The difference being it would be seen as morally acceptable (possibly even some virtuous stance) to post a tweet saying "The entire Catholic church knew about it and hid it" in response to an article about a child being abused in the church.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
I can actually see that one. It is the same bloke again, seems to be a little too invested and so he comes across as insensitive.

I must say I do find it strange that it is accepted to criticise Christianity but seen as morally abhorrent to do so with Islam. Just looking at that tweet he clearly uses harmful hyperbole but there is truth in the fact that a number of Mosques have had roots in criminal activity and acts of terror. Being a harbinger for that much in the same way for the Catholic church and acts of paedophilia. The difference being it would be seen as morally acceptable (possibly even some virtuous stance) to post a tweet saying "The entire Catholic church knew about it and hid it" in response to an article about a child being abused in the church.
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It's the agenda rather than the argument. I mean, the argument is flawed too. But it's everything else that comes with it that really takes the piss.
 
Silva said:
It's the agenda rather than the argument. I mean, the argument is flawed too. But it's everything else that comes with it that really takes the piss.
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I think you would be surprised at the percentage of the agenda which is actually "I hate SJW's and leftists". Islam is a tricky one for me to comment on, I am liberal but even I find a number of things about Islam troubling so I am not best placed to condemn someone like that even if as I said he uses too much hyperbole.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
I think you would be surprised at the percentage of the agenda which is actually "I hate SJW's and leftists". Islam is a tricky one for me to comment on, I am liberal but even I find a number of things about Islam troubling so I am not best placed to condemn someone like that even if as I said he uses too much hyperbole.
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It's very easy to draw the line though. I.e, if you find yourself critiquing an advert for portraying muslims you've probably gone wrong somewhere. And that goes beyond "I hate snowflakes", because they're attacking someone for being rather than thinking.
 
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Silva said:
It's very easy to draw the line though. I.e, if you find yourself critiquing ad advert for portraying muslims you've probably gone wrong somewhere. And that goes beyond "I hate snowflakes", because they're attacking someone for being rather than thinking.
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Well that is a line for you, being called a bigot or a white supremacist might be a line for others. We are sort of drifting away from my point which I think you actually might agree with in principal.
 
Silva said:
There's nothing unidentifiable about it, it's all laid out in the stats. Racial minorities are more likely to be arrested and convicted for similar crimes to white people. Less likely to get the same jobs (as compared to when the selection process is blind. They're more likely to be underestimated by their very own teachers who are meant to look after them - this is evident in them getting higher grades in final exams, where the marks are given by anonymous markers that don't know them. There's a million other metrics which show the discrepancies.
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I have just seen this. I saw a stat the other day which said women get significantly less prison time than men for committing the same crimes, boys are also doing terribly in schools compared to girls.

I could say there is systemic oppression against men. I wouldn't because firstly it would be bollox and secondly it wouldn't help anything. What would actually help as an example would be petitioning the parole and sentencing bodies and working towards an evolution in equality in that sector. Identifying specific issues and working with both sides to attempt to combat them.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
I have just seen this. I saw a stat the other day which said women get significantly less prison time than men for committing the same crimes, boys are also doing terribly in schools compared to girls.

I could say there is systemic oppression against men. I wouldn't because firstly it would be bollox and secondly it wouldn't help anything. What would actually help as an example would be petitioning the parole and sentencing bodies and working towards an evolution in equality in that sector. Identifying specific issues and working with both sides to attempt to combat them.
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There are systemic problems that primarily impact working class boys though, that's well supported by the data you just alluded to. I don't think anyone ever claimed that only one group or another faces unique issues - just that some groups face certain obstacles for no reason other than being in said group. The education problem working class boys face is exacerbated by an education policy that has chosen to leave them behind and warrants being called oppressive.
 
Buchan said:
I'm not sure if this is the correct thread (maybe it's not and a new, specific one should be created such is the widespread practice of such articles) but here it goes anyway:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alannabenn...017-reputation?utm_term=.plBJbA6kO#.ieD3jOVW2

Taylor Swift being attacked here for not only being "aggressively white" (whatever the feck that means) and pure conjecture that she's a figurehead for white supremacists (what a giant leap that is), but also attacked for her "political silence", which is an absolute abhorrent thing to attack somebody with who is not in the political game. (That's one of my main concerns with the direction the New Left is taking, that everything must be politicised and it's just an incredibly exhausting endeavour. You can't watch a movie, a television show, a sports show, pop music, open a newspaper etc. without being hit square in the face with some ridiculous politically-correct social justice cause, and with the added bonus of demonising those who don't join the cause. It's approaching breaking-point now.)
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You are using Buzzfeed click bait to make a point about what some alleged alt-left is doing? Okkkkkkkay.

Approaching breaking-point? :rolleyes:
 
Silva said:
There are systemic problems that primarily impact working class boys though, that's well supported by the data you just alluded to. I don't think anyone ever claimed that only one group or another faces unique issues - just that some groups face certain obstacles for no reason other than being in said group.
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I don't think you are getting my point. Systemic problems essentially means a way that the system in place effects you negatively, so obviously every single person alive faces one type of systemic problem or another.

My point is that using that incredibly broad or as I said earlier vague term is a complete waste of time.

Edit: Not the actual point I was initially making but you seemed to take issue with my taking issue with the phrase.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
To be honest I am happy that you went and found some examples of actual racists (Working from the assumption due to being unable to see the tweets). Those are the people who should be highlighted and have the attention brought to them.

I have a hell of a lot of problems with the right but one of my main problems with the left is the whole idea of "systemic racism" or systemic anything. This unidentifiable boogeyman that is impossible to actually combat due to the vagueness of it all. Even white supremacist has become a vague term.
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is that ben shapiro posting on the caf
 
OverratedOpinion said:
I don't think you are getting my point. Systemic problems essentially means a way that the system in place effects you negatively, so obviously every single person alive faces one type of systemic problem or another.

My point is that using that incredibly broad or as I said earlier vague term is a complete waste of time.
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We're in a thread that routinely spends hour after hour going into inane detail about the tweets of a handful of people. It's beyond doubt that this is all a waste of time.
 
Silva said:
We're in a thread that routinely spends hour after hour going into inane detail about the tweets of a handful of people. It's beyond doubt that this is all a waste of time.
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Mate trust me I try and avoid this thread like the plague, especially during my most petty moments.
 
2 Man Midfield said:
It's definitely a new mindset, this whole 'either you agree with what we say or you're against us by default' mentality. It's obviously a niche thing but does seem to be growing, and that's the worrying part.
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It isn't at all new. The right and the far right even more so have used it for decades.

Totalitarian regimes of all politicial persuasions use it and always have. The difference is that it is perfectly acceptable to think someone is a bigotted twat for voting against same sex marriage (for example) given that barring them engaging in hate speech here are no consequences other than being thought of as a twat by some people for holding and expressing that view.

IMO most people who cry about political correctness gone mad just don't like being called on their often views.
 
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