Has political correctness actually gone mad?

Wibble said:
It depends as gender is a social construct.

The Navajo identify 4. The Bugis people identify 5.

There are at least 35 (often overlapping) gender identities that I have seen listed that (I assume) are used in western society.
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So there's not only males, females & males who feel like a female and vice versa?

Because I can live with that but if you go much further, like the whole fluid thing where some bounce back and forth, it's where I believe the majority of people start to lose interest.
 
Vato said:
So there's not only males, females & males who feel like a female and vice versa?

Because I can live with that but if you go much further, like the whole fluid thing where some bounce back and forth, it's where I believe the majority of people start to lose interest.
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Fortunately none of this is dependent on you being able to live with it.
 
Vato said:
So there's not only males, females & males who feel like a female and vice versa?

Because I can live with that but if you go much further, like the whole fluid thing where some bounce back and forth, it's where I believe the majority of people start to lose interest.
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People do not "bounce" backwards and forwards. That is a very disparaging way of describing one (or more) gender identities. It implies it is some sort of fashion choice akin to changing your shoes. Which of course it isn't.

I also wonder why you fell it is your place to live (or not live) with there being multiple gender identities? Who made you boss? And these people who "lost interest" seem very interested given how invested they seem in how other identify.
 
Vato said:
Well, it's not dependent on anything tbh. Just giving my opinion as you are welcome to have yours.
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I think it would be worth the effort to make an opinion well informed and carefully considered. The impression you are giving is that you don't want to understand and based on that want it to all just go away which implies it bothers you. That might not be so but it is the impression you are giving.

People seem to think that because they don't understand something that it is either untrue or non-existent. This seems an odd way of thinking about things especially when little or no effort is made to understand.
 
Wibble said:
I think it would be worth the effort to make an opinion well informed and carefully considered. The impression you are giving is that you don't want to understand and based on that want it to all just go away which implies it bothers you. That might not be so but it is the impression you are giving.

People seem to think that because they don't understand something that it is either untrue or non-existent. This seems an odd way of thinking about things especially when little or no effort is made to understand.
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The only impression I am giving is that I honestly believe that people can feel like the opposite gender trapped in the wrong body but that there's also a lot of attention seeking going on by others who see an opportunity to feel special because this is such a topical subject lately. Just take a look at anyone's facebook feed and tell me there's not a big part of the population who are starving for attention. Is there a reason I should't believe it is the same percentage of people in the trans community? People who want to take it even further to get some coverage somehow?
 
Vato said:
The only impression I am giving is that I honestly believe that people can feel like the opposite gender trapped in the wrong body
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I'm afraid it is far more complex and nuanced than that.

but that there's also a lot of attention seeking going on by others who see an opportunity to feel special because this is such a topical subject lately. Just take a look at anyone's facebook feed and tell me there's not a big part of the population who are starving for attention. Is there a reason I should't believe it is the same percentage of people in the trans community? People who want to take it even further to get some coverage somehow?
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Using the statement that "people attention seek on Facebook" as evidence that anything more than your simplistic view of gender identity is simply attention seeking is an outright ludicrous suggestion. I suppose the odd person might overstate or even incorrectly state their gender identity but I'll wager is far far less common than people hiding their non cis gender identity.
 
My only point is that this
Wibble said:
There are at least 35 (often overlapping) gender identities that I have seen listed that (I assume) are used in western society.
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looks a bit much to me, Wibble. That's all I'm saying. I just can't comprehend that there can be so many different genders. Maybe it has to do with my conservative upbringing but it's my opinion on this, nothing more.
 
Vato said:
My only point is that this

looks a bit much to me, Wibble. That's all I'm saying. I just can't comprehend that there can be so many different genders. Maybe it has to do with my conservative upbringing but it's my opinion on this, nothing more.
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I don't think it is 35 different genders exactly as there is overlap and subsets of different gender identities. I can't personally understand what it feels like to be a cys hetero bloke as that is what I am.but that doesn't mean I cant imagine others have very different gender identities. I have only known 2 trans people, 1 my nephew, and it is a very hard thing to understand yourself much less reveal/explain to others.
 
Wibble said:
Not that specifically but that sort of list. And yes, there is quite a bit of overlap and nuance in there. The point is not that there are 5, 10, 35 or 100 different genders but rather that gender identity is far more complex than most discussions admit.
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I think a lot of it is down to the fact that our language tree seems to have developed around 2 gender pronouns. We really don’t have a way to describe, say, the fa’afafine.
 
Oh my, how i would piss people off by sharing my opinion about genders, i better stay out of this one, or all the special little snowflakes will have their feelings hurt. :)
 
Grylte said:
Oh my, how i would piss people off by sharing my opinion about genders, i better stay out of this one, or all the special little snowflakes will have their feelings hurt. :)
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This comment is about as useful as the heat death of the Universe.

Vato said:
The only impression I am giving is that I honestly believe that people can feel like the opposite gender trapped in the wrong body but that there's also a lot of attention seeking going on by others who see an opportunity to feel special because this is such a topical subject lately. Just take a look at anyone's facebook feed and tell me there's not a big part of the population who are starving for attention. Is there a reason I should't believe it is the same percentage of people in the trans community? People who want to take it even further to get some coverage somehow?
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I think you're falling into the trap of vastly overestimating the percentage of people who are "starving for attention". Also, very often this particular perspective has been an indicator of general bigotry, and has for example been used against everything from homosexuality to women's suffrage. That definitely doesn't mean you're a bigot, but it should help you understand why you might get such a push-back on it.

Carolina Red said:
I think a lot of it is down to the fact that our language tree seems to have developed around 2 gender pronouns. We really don’t have a way to describe, say, the fa’afafine.
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English does have the gender-neutral third person singular "they", at least. But I do think we have to expect that in the future the English language is going to adapt to more generally accepted genders. I don't know when, but at some point. Not all of us might like it very much, but progress doesn't often care about individual people's feelings.
 
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I know a trans person, and I call her a her because that’s what she’d like to be known as and it’s polite to do so. Most reasonable people would do this.

But if they wanted me to call them Xe or something like that I have no idea what I’d do. You can’t blame people for thinking half this shit is made up.
 
2 man midfield said:
I know a trans person, and I call her a her because that’s what she’d like to be known as and it’s polite to do so. Most reasonable people would do this.

But if they wanted me to call them Xe or something like that I have no idea what I’d do. You can’t blame people for thinking half this shit is made up.
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I think you'd find yourself politely calling them Xe, at least eventually. The reason I think that is because you say you call her "her" because that's what she'd like to be known as, not because "that's what she really is" or some other such argument. Reasonable people find their horizons being gradually expanded on such things, even if it's not really within their initial comfort zone.
 
niMic said:
I think you'd find yourself politely calling them Xe, at least eventually. The reason I think that is because you say you call her "her" because that's what she'd like to be known as, not because "that's what she really is" or some other such argument. Reasonable people find their horizons being gradually expanded on such things.
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Yeah maybe. It’s never come up, so who knows. I’d like to think if it meant that much to someone then I’d do it, but at the same time I get why a lot of people dismiss stuff like 76 genders. Is there literally none up to that point that would’ve done? But I guess I’m lucky enough to be happy as a bloke.
 
2 man midfield said:
Yeah maybe. It’s never come up, so who knows. I’d like to think if it meant that much to someone then I’d do it, but at the same time I get why a lot of people dismiss stuff like 76 genders. Is there literally none up to that point that would’ve done? But I guess I’m lucky enough to be happy as a bloke.
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I think focusing on the "76 genders" thing is a bit like when people say that gay marriage is a slippery slope that leads to people marrying their dogs. By presenting a (presumed) obviously absurd situation as the logical conclusion, and shifting the conversation onto that, they give themselves the opportunity to more easily reject the original argument. I don't at all think that's what you're going, because you've at least somewhat accepted the non-standard naming convention of transsexuals (i. e. calling someone her who sees themselves as female), but it's a quite common tactic.
 
fellaini's barber said:
people will call you names if you call him anything but a woman.
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And nothing invalidates an argument more than when you have to resort to name calling!

fellaini's barber said:
Then there's weirdos in the thread giving hilarious reasons why born men now transgender should be allowed to compete with women.
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fellaini's barber said:
Typical liberal nutjob reply
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fellaini's barber said:
the lofty moral high ground you created in your tiny little head
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fellaini's barber said:
Why would anyone bother themslves with what you crazies label them?
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fellaini's barber said:
she's supposed to bother if loons call her names for that opinion?
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Vato said:
My only point is that this

looks a bit much to me, Wibble. That's all I'm saying. I just can't comprehend that there can be so many different genders. Maybe it has to do with my conservative upbringing but it's my opinion on this, nothing more.
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People are trying to describe a significant element of their own identity in a few words. The question it opens is when/where does gender actually matter?

Most of the time it doesn't or shouldn't. It's seldom relevant in the workplace, or commerce, or in everyday life. Crudely, it's asking why do so many websites ask us to tick a box for M or F - why does it matter and why isn't there a box for "neither/not telling you/mind your own business". More tellingly it asks, why have that checkbox at all?

It matters as we look for a sexually compatible partner, as we get certain kinds of medical treatment. It matters in speech in as much as we should try to call people by the name/pronoun they choose, because that's just being respectful.

The question of when does gender (or birth sex) matter is more complex when it comes to some of the border subjects, and that's where the most legitimate (and heated) debate is taking place. Things like:
- women's prisons
- women's refuges
- women's (open) changing rooms and similar single sex spaces/activities
- women's sport
In those areas, blanket rules are less useful and the focus shifts to the individual. Questions like self-declaration, fluidity are making these arguments come to a head. Physical transformation (and sometimes birth sex) become relevant again. Which, whilst it might be a delicate and intensely personal question, is also one where wider society will have to work things out.
 
Halftrack said:
If writing me off as a liberal nutjob makes you feel better about the blatantly transphobic shit you keep posting, good for you I guess.

And most (though not all) on here and elsewhere didn't take issue with the point she was making (having trans women compete against cis women would be unfair), but the way she made it. Going "men will just become a woman to win a lot" is straight-up trans panic shit, comparable to "men will just say they are women to molest girls in restrooms". She could have just said "their physical advantage would make for an uneven playing field, and would be unfair for cis women" and avoided stoking the flames of trans hatred. What she said also ignores those who transition before puberty, and whose bodies will follow the development of their 'new' gender. They'd have no physical advantage over cis women, and there shouldn't be anything that keeps them from competing.
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First you claim I vehemently protested being called transphobic by the likes of you, now it's that I'm trying to feel better about something I said. You're obsessed with making stuff up that I feel bad about
 
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Wibble said:
It depends as gender is a social construct.

The Navajo identify 4. The Bugis people identify 5.

There are at least 35 (often overlapping) gender identities that I have seen listed that (I assume) are used in western society.
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For the purposes of most general discussions (when we're not talking an about one individual), three should cover it: male, female, non-binary.
 
hobbers said:
Especially since it quite literally is all made up.

"And on the fourth day: God made the demi-boys and the omnigenders".
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Now there's a stupid made up concept in that sentence before you mention anything about gender.
 
Silva said:
why is anyone surprised that a man who hates cis women would also hates trans women
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If you are refering to me then will the mod who sent me the warning ask him to quote the hateful things I've said about cis or transwomen? Or everything goes once you're not towing the libcafe line?
 
I genuinely don't understand what's there to get worked up about regarding transgenders. You think someone seeks attention? So don't give them the attention then, why are you getting worked up? Let them be. I honestly couldn't care less about all this stuff. I'll respect anyone's wishes, it's not that hard is it?
 
niMic said:
Do you actually talk like this in real life, or is it just on the internet? You realize you're not on Reddit, right? It's like you saw Trump's tweets and thought "yeah, that's a good look for me".
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The only place on earth the word libcafe exists is probably on this forum. Claiming I got it from a Trump tweet or reddit is just.... look I don't want to get another warning. There's a bunch of people who all post alike and call people names like they're on the same internet groupthink and it's not me, someone made a thread about them called 'libcafe'
 
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Bobcat said:
But this is also part of the problem and pretty much the reason for this thread. Navratilova might have phrased her words in a clumsy, insensitive manner but the content itself is not the issue. Having a person like Navratilova publicly castigated and shamed because she phrased her words poorly seems pretty unfair in my opinion, especially when you have real bigots like Trump and Putin talking shite and making actual harmful policies on a daily basis.

Before this time of moral outrage, people could say something insensitive and worst case they got reminded their language was unacceptable and they might make an public apology. Now on the other hand, people get branded a bigot, sacked and publicly shamed. This extreme form of tone/language policing does more harm than good because it suffocates debate completely, emboldens the actual bigots and turns away people who may actually be sympathetic to your cause
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This is a good point and it's particularly important when it comes to potential allies tearing into one another. I have a similar reaction when it's a public figure (or even a poster) using an old-fashioned phrase - like Alan Hansen's remark about "coloured" players or a term like "half-caste". Nothing wrong with pointing out that it's archaic and to modern ears offensive - but any apology that follows should be accepted for just that, an apology that says they've heard that it's a problem and will avoid it in future.

The flipside is that hyperbole and deliberately using extreme examples or language is a long-time tactic of political debate with hundreds of years behind it. Language does matter and words do hurt people. When the group who get hurt are minorities or lack the money/political power to respond through the traditional media and institutions they look for another way. Social media acts as a megaphone in that situation. Click-bait headlines and click-bait quotes attract retweets and so do big names like Martina.

Somehow we need to learn to respect each other in all our diversity and words play a role.
 
niMic said:
Do you actually talk like this in real life, or is it just on the internet? You realize you're not on Reddit, right? It's like you saw Trump's tweets and thought "yeah, that's a good look for me".
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Oi that's my word! I demand royalties.... Libcafe :D

jojojo said:
but any apology that follows should be accepted for just that, an apology that says they've heard that it's a problem and will avoid it in future.
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In most (if not all cases) it is accepted. The problem here is that the apology doesn't always come. Some choose to double down and paint the offended as the problem. Others rail against PC gone mad and won't have anyone telling them what they can or can't say...

What people really need is to be a bit more empathetic and less self centered, imo. That would go a long way...

Thinking about it, it's so rare in fact (that an apology isn't accepted) that it baffles me why some find it hard to actually give one. Just apologize and move on...

redman5 said:
Doesn't that cut both ways though ? It's important to remember that the Transgender population is extremely small, & most of us would probably go a long time before we encountered anyone who is a Transgender person. So wouldn't you say they too have a responsibility to realize this & perhaps show a little bit more tolerance & understanding when people mistake their chosen pronoun or gender ?
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It's implied in the bit you highlighted no?
 
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afrocentricity said:
Oi that's my word! I demand royalties.... Libcafe :D


In most (if not all cases) it is accepted. The problem here is that the apology doesn't always come. Some choose to double down and paint the offended as the problem. Others rail against PC gone mad and won't have anyone telling them what they can or can't say...

What people really need is to be a bit more empathetic and less self centered, imo. That would go a long way...

Thinking about it, it's so rare in fact (that an apology isn't accepted) that it baffles me why some find it hard to actually give one. Just apologize and move on...
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Doesn't that cut both ways though ? It's important to remember that the Transgender population is extremely small, & most of us would probably go a long time before we encountered anyone who is a Transgender person. So wouldn't you say they too have a responsibility to realize this & perhaps show a little bit more tolerance & understanding when people mistake their chosen pronoun or gender ?
 
redman5 said:
Doesn't that cut both ways though ? It's important to remember that the Transgender population is extremely small, & most of us would probably go a long time before we encountered anyone who is a Transgender person. So wouldn't you say they too have a responsibility to realize this & perhaps show a little bit more tolerance & understanding when people mistake their chosen pronoun or gender ?
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it's not people making a mistake they have a problem with, it's people who do it on purpose and spread hateful messages and feck ever being tolerant to those cnuts

the average interaction where a trans person gets misgendered they just die a little inside, they're not throwing people off roof tops
 
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Silva said:
it's not people making a mistake they have a problem with, it's people who do it on purpose and spread hateful messages and feck ever being tolerant to those cnuts

the average interaction where a trans person gets misgendered they just die a little inside, they're not throwing people off roof tops
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You're talking about the dregs of society whereas I was relating my point to decent people who make genuine mistakes when confronted with a transgender person. A bit like that young shop assistant on the video that went viral not so long ago. He certainly didn't deserve the aggressive abuse he got from that arsehole. Which one do you reckon has to make the apology there ?
 
redman5 said:
You're talking about the dregs of society whereas I was relating my point to decent people who make genuine mistakes when confronted with a transgender person. A bit like that young shop assistant on the video that went viral not so long ago. He certainly didn't deserve the aggressive abuse he got from that arsehole. Which one do you reckon has to make the apology there ?
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neither it was a stupid thing that i hope both parties want to forget
 
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