Well, I was giving my opinion on the matter, so yes, in my head it does, that was the point. What other people think of it, is theirs to decide.
Has political correctness actually gone mad?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
This reminds me of a conversation I had involving advanced prosthetics and sports. It's going to be an interesting conundrum. Just like this one...
What is this nonsense then ?
As the LGBT group said her comments "perpetuated myths". This has literally never happened in tennis, it's a situation Navratilova has made up in her head. And its no different to I image the gay panic abuse she suffered as a player.
So by all means if people want to have this discussion then go right a head but stop this scary tactics/trans panic shite.
True I was at the dentist last week and most waiting were on their phones but I see older people still reading the magazines in waiting rooms.
Prejudice! Myth perpetration!
The only fair way moving forward, @RochaRoja seems to be to do away with all categories if there is no benefit of being a man over a woman in sport anyway?
@afrocentricity its no stretch to think in 10-20 years with technology advancements prosthetics could be an advantage and start breaking all time men’s records.
There must be regulations on spring rates of prosthetics, I honestly have no idea though.
@afrocentricity its no stretch to think in 10-20 years with technology advancements prosthetics could be an advantage and start breaking all time men’s records.
There must be regulations on spring rates of prosthetics, I honestly have no idea though.
So if it did happen would you change your mind or at that point change your argument to it doesn't matter anyway.
You would have to figure at some point there is someone going to say "I self identify as a female tennis player but as male the rest of the time, the bouncy skirts feel wonderful". Given the money its going to happen.
She's using an extreme, hypothetical example to make a point. Standard framing tactic that would get used in any debate. Ultimately, all she's doing is arguing that biological males should not be allowed to compete against biological females, as she believes this is unfair. Her issue here is fairness in sport. It's a big fecking leap (and basically just nasty character assassination) to use that as the basis to call her transphobic. She chose to work with a trans woman as her coach ffs. Is that really the action of a transphobe?
This is exactly what the catholic right do when talking about gay marrage or homosexuality in general.
When debating gay marriage the catholic argument against it was not just that it goes against the bible but that if we as a society agree on gay marriage then where does the line stop ? And thus these scum bag minsters would go on to talk about people marrying animals or marrying young boys etc. Yet they would say no we are not being homophobic but simply talking ultimately about the sanctity of marriage.
In fact this is the US Republican go to method of politics
.Health care for everyone = Venezula
.Not locking up immigrate children in cages = MS13 in the suburbs
.Taxing the very wealth a tiny bit = The Soviet Union
.Saying Black Lives Matter = White genocide
It's not actual a nasty character assassination is it. Firslty it's not a character assassination if the person said something transphobic but ok lets just say for argument sake what she said wasn't transphobic and she is now being unfairly being labelled a transphobe, what's the negative here ?
We live in a society that uses brutal violence on trans people in particular black trans women, people have made whole careers out of being arseholes to trans people, there is a constant effort to stop trans people being able to get the healthcare and legal rights they need. Martina Navratilova will still have all her money, mostly likely have her gig at the BBC and will be able to function in a society that on the whole agrees with her views.
Not reading the full thing, from what I remember the objection wasn't to her demanding they compete according to sex, but because of the way she framed it; daycheese makes the point nicely here:
[not my screenshot, so those aren't my up or downvotes]
[not my screenshot, so those aren't my up or downvotes]
-72 points. Reddit sucks
Not reading the full thing, from what I remember the objection wasn't to her demanding they compete according to sex, but because of the way she framed it; daycheese makes the point nicely here:
[not my screenshot, so those aren't my up or downvotes]
That makes a lot more sense to me as criticism.
Not reading the full thing, from what I remember the objection wasn't to her demanding they compete according to sex, but because of the way she framed it; daycheese makes the point nicely here:
[not my screenshot, so those aren't my up or downvotes]
I think that’s a good point (why is it downvoted?!). She could have chosen her words more carefully when arguing her case.
Feck me, though. This obsession with the nuances of phraseology is exactly the sort of over the top nit-picking that makes most people like me so irritated by movements that they would usually want to get behind.
Take out one or two carelessly worded phrases and Martina’a whole premise is entirely reasonable. So I guess I shouldn’t be too surprised when the usual suspects don’t want to consider her argument on its own merits and instead immediately jump to ad hominem attacks and accusations of transphobia.
I’ll ask the question @RochaRoja dodged earlier for a second time. If being biologically male doesn’t give an unfair advantage why do we have male and female disciplines in sports at all? Either we do away with them entirely or we continue to split along the lines of biology. Surely that’s the only option here?
I usually dislike calling places a cesspit, but reddit becomes a cesspit due to the upvote/downvote ending in cliques and a whoever shouts highests early on being considered right or their usual contribution to a sub-reddit giving them status to gain points.
Whenever I use reddit I ignore upvote/downvote and just look at the content.
The left is obsessed with transsexuals, I find it weird.
That's one argument for why it's a cesspit. Another is that it's a breeding ground for white supremacy, misogyny, transphobia and any other kind of bigotry you can think of. I've curated my Reddit experience down to a few subreddits.
That's a really dumb opinion.
You might be a 100% right. I however really only use reddit to find information about games, so I don't have to deal with their other issues.
You might be a 100% right. I however really only use reddit to find information about games, so I don't have to deal with their other issues.
It definitely ties into what you said about downvotes. I think there are a lot of repressed American teenagers (and early 20-somethings) getting a tiny little kick out of pressing the upvote button whenever someone "calls it like it is" regarding women, black people, homosexuals, transsexuals, Muslims, etc. It's the "owning the libs" generation.
It's not an opinion, it's an emotional response.
What makes you think the left is more obsessed than the right?
About transsexuals or in general? If it's the latter then I don't, I just think they obsess about different things.
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i think they should work out better guidelines, based on testosterone levels, to maintain the sports binary within a tougher-to-characterise population.
about the rest, 2 mutually opposing opinions:
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/02/the-cancel-monster
https://www.patreon.com/posts/24809960
A famous essay on this, which I promise I'll read fully sometime:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/mark-fisher/exiting-vampire-castle
Trying to fix testosterone levels won’t even the playing field. Men have greater muscle mass, bone density, even more red blood cells. Temporarily bringing down testosterone during the sporting season won’t undo any of those advantages. There’s a reason you very rarely find 6 foot plus, 85kg, heavily muscled women and that’s down to much more than just testosterone levels at any given week/month.
Re the rest. Those are interesting points of view. I’m not sure they’re opposing. They do seem to converge on internet pile ons being shitty behaviour.
The 2nd and 3rd certainly do, the first kind of vaccilates and says they're just not that important.
About testosterone: longer-term tracking is certainly more useful than a one-time measurement, and I should have been clear about that. But I think it's also true that a transgender horome/surgical transition does definitely reduce testosterone and its associated effects, and so measuring its levels would be a quantitative way to place the range of observable characteristics into the male/female binary fora sports.
Biology beyond the molecular or single-cell level isn't really my thing, so maybe there are other proxies better than testosterone, or maybe a range of measurements that can be taken.
I honestly can’t think of any way to artificially remove the immense physical advantage of a 6 foot four bloke, built like a brick shit house, who transitions late in life. I know that sounds like an extreme example but it’s actually happening. Former competitive male power-lifters, entering womens competitions early on in their transition.
The bit I find hardest to understand is why they feel the need to enter competitions? Could they not just continue to enjoy their sport without taking medals away from women at such an obvious physical disadvantage?
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To be fair, all women’s sport is absolutely shit. There are perhaps one or a few (Gymnastics, 90’s Tennis, Figure skating, extreme distance running) that are genuine sports.
For the most part we have a discipline that’s ‘These are the best humans that do this particular thing’.
Then there’s an additional subservient sport that women play.
If women and the world want to be all inclusive and have the women’s event jumbled up by women that we’re born male... it doesn’t affect sport. It affects women.
Men should bow out of the conversation. It’s irrelevant. No woman is switching sex/gender, entering a male field and becoming professional to any point of significance.
The world is nuts.
For the most part we have a discipline that’s ‘These are the best humans that do this particular thing’.
Then there’s an additional subservient sport that women play.
If women and the world want to be all inclusive and have the women’s event jumbled up by women that we’re born male... it doesn’t affect sport. It affects women.
Men should bow out of the conversation. It’s irrelevant. No woman is switching sex/gender, entering a male field and becoming professional to any point of significance.
The world is nuts.
That's a nice opinion you shared there. Too bad it isn't a fact, otherwise you might have had a point.
That's a generous view, considering the rest of his post.
I don't understand. Are you saying that 1: you think her argument is so sound that it is incontrovertible? Or 2: you are suggesting that who she is and what she represents is justification for her argument? Or 3: some other reasoning.
Because 1: Her argument is sloppy and introduces unhelpful language (you later seem to agree, with regards to the Reddit post).
2: Appeals to authority don't work as justifications.
3:?
4: You are free to agree with some or all of her views but I challenge the idea of agreement as a prerequisite.
That said, she is worth hearing and hopefully a healthy debate can arise*. Because there is certainly an issue to debate.
*Likely huh
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All combat sports like boxing, wrestling, mma have strict weight classes. All children and teen sports are divided by age group.
Mainly 1, with a sprinkling of 2.
Question: If Trump does a Caitlyn before he gets kicked out does he go down in the history books as the US's first female president?
1st transgender.
This is where the scrutiny comes in...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...texas-state-girls-championship/?noredirect=on
Mack Beggs should not be wrestling in the girls classification.
They key words for me there are "transitions late in life" and "entering [women's competitions] early in their transitions."
If testosterone, or a testosterone time-series, isn't a good proxy for it, there can be others used to measure extent of transition, which was what I was trying to say in my 1st post itself. There needs to be some way to quantify it.
What do you think about transwomen competing in combat sports (i.e. MMA) against a born females?
There is a degree of conflict in my head with this one. As a believer in equality between the sexes, the less segregation the better. But I can also understand that it would basically turn all sport into a male dominated arena, which is obviously a terrible thing for gender equality. We’re in a weird moment right now where gender is becoming both more and less important depending on whose perspective you take. If we end up with a more gender fluid society in a few decades time, who knows if that would see the deterioration of separate male and female events.
As trans people are a tiny minority of society, I don’t think it’s worth throwing out the entire concept of gendered sport just because you’ll have a handful of trans athletes who will (on average) have a competitive advantage of their biologically female counterparts. It’s just part of the variation of the sport.
If individual women’s sports become dominated by transwomen in future then it might be a watershed moment where some kind of change will need to be made but, as I said, transpeople are far too small percentage of the general population for that to be likely.
The people who always seem to be forgotten in these debates is transmen. As they have no “physical advantage” biologically over their cis counterparts nobody could really have complaints about their participation in male sports. That just shows how much of a can of worms this whole debate is. How can you exclude transgender women from competing in their gender category but not transmen?
But Caitlyn got women awards and stuff and people will call you names if you call him anything but a woman. Then there's weirdos in the thread giving hilarious reasons why born men now transgender should be allowed to compete with women. Why the new classification for Trump?
Who has a bigger advantage when it comes to competing in women’s sports.
1) Born female that has fully transitioned to a man, or...
2) Born male that has fully transitioned to female
Should be interesting....
1) Born female that has fully transitioned to a man, or...
2) Born male that has fully transitioned to female
Should be interesting....
Yeah, you're right.
Why should it? No one disputes that trans women would have a competitive advantage far greater than that of trans men (trans men would be unlikely to have any kind of advantage in any physical sport).
If they transitioned before hitting puberty, their physical development would follow that of their 'new' gender, and there should be nothing stopping them from competing against others of that gender.
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