And this bolded bit is the problem in a nutshell, hes not an out and out number 9. His numbers have improved and hopefully he will continue to improve but I don't see him being a consistent 25+ goals per season number 9 - And a club of our size must have one of those if it wants to compete at the very top.
Has Martial done enough to be backed as our long-term #9?
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So which player who is available and affordable can reach those numbers?
If we get Sancho and Fernándes and pogba click i see nó reason why Tony won't hit 25 goals next season
As with all of our longer term players he as gone through sht manager after sht manager. He has been left wing and only has had half a season as a number 9. He has been in teams that have under performed being fed chances by the likes of Lingard and Periera. So how do you judge how good he will be?
What we do know is that he is not a typical number 9. But does he have to be? I would say no. After Rashfords injury, and lets not forget how bad Rashford was at number 9, he has had a very good season. Candidate for player of the season I would say. He carried our attack when we had no Rashford and no Pogba and Fernandes wasnt bought yet. Think of the sht around him and attacking wise you can see he definitely carried us. Can he score 20 plus goals? I dont see why not with Pogba, Fernandes, Rashford and possibly Sancho next to him. He has a very good partnership with Rashford and Fernandes and will do with Pogba and and Sancho if he is bought. He also never moans and complains. Yeah he has a miserable face half the time and looks lazy but thats just the way he is.
Talent wise he has everything. He can get to the top. Is he there yet? No. But who else is better than him? 29 year old Jiminez? I like him but come on. 150 mill Kane? Yeah great player and a better all out number 9 but 150 mill! Werner possibly but he wont come to United and Im not convinced he will be better than Martial.
So all n all he deserves his chance I think.
What we do know is that he is not a typical number 9. But does he have to be? I would say no. After Rashfords injury, and lets not forget how bad Rashford was at number 9, he has had a very good season. Candidate for player of the season I would say. He carried our attack when we had no Rashford and no Pogba and Fernandes wasnt bought yet. Think of the sht around him and attacking wise you can see he definitely carried us. Can he score 20 plus goals? I dont see why not with Pogba, Fernandes, Rashford and possibly Sancho next to him. He has a very good partnership with Rashford and Fernandes and will do with Pogba and and Sancho if he is bought. He also never moans and complains. Yeah he has a miserable face half the time and looks lazy but thats just the way he is.
Talent wise he has everything. He can get to the top. Is he there yet? No. But who else is better than him? 29 year old Jiminez? I like him but come on. 150 mill Kane? Yeah great player and a better all out number 9 but 150 mill! Werner possibly but he wont come to United and Im not convinced he will be better than Martial.
So all n all he deserves his chance I think.
I've always thought a peak United side in 2020 would have Rashford Kane and Sancho in attack. There's question marks around Martial because he's not the typical United striker/ top European striker and people completely dismiss him for this. Time is running out for him and he's on the edge of either going another level and becoming world class or being known as the player with a potential he couldn't fulfill like a Nani
He has not done enough, but we should keep for next season if we cannot sign someone better. If Kane came available etc. he must be signed.
Spurs will never put Kane in the market like that. He has a long term contract so would cost £150m plus.
Well my point was more that he's not really the long term answer but off the top off my head Werner potentially (gone now.) Haaland (buy out clause I believe.)
Werner has only got 25 goals once in his career.
Haaland - again what is there to suggest he can consistently get 25 goals?
Martial has played one season at most as a CF and both times he has played there, he has produced very good numbers.
The problem is there's not much out there to replace him. He's got the potential. I just don't know if he's a 30 goals a season player.
Neither Martial nor Rashford have done enough to be our first choice striker. I don't think either of them really are centre forwards.
What we need is a real genuine in the box goal scorer. It could be a Ruud V. N. type or a Robin V. P. type or a Shearer or a Vardy or Didier Drogba - but they have to be an out and out honest to goodness goal scorer. One who is capable of being the league's leading scorer. I don't care if it is Harry Kane or Mason Greenwood but slightly attacking players are not the same as a genuine stay in the box, one touch, hit the back of the net goal scorer and that is what we need now, more than anything.
What we need is a real genuine in the box goal scorer. It could be a Ruud V. N. type or a Robin V. P. type or a Shearer or a Vardy or Didier Drogba - but they have to be an out and out honest to goodness goal scorer. One who is capable of being the league's leading scorer. I don't care if it is Harry Kane or Mason Greenwood but slightly attacking players are not the same as a genuine stay in the box, one touch, hit the back of the net goal scorer and that is what we need now, more than anything.
You want to go back in time? Strikers now are required to do more than stay in the box and tap in a ball. Look at the most successful sides and which one of them plays with a stay in the box number 9? Liverpool? No. Madrid? No. City? Not really since Aguero can do so much more. Bayern? Same as City but Lewa instead of Aguero. Juventus? No.
The old number 9 is , atleast at this moment, a thing of the past. A striker like Martial is the current modern striker. I rather have 3 forwards only score 15 goals each instead of one striker scoring 35 and the other two score 10 goals together.
His physical stature doesn't change the fact that CR7 is not what people would consider a #9 or even a striker not that long ago, but now it's all blurred into the forward category. And while you can say Martial is not the physical presence that CR7 is (few are when you consider his unique athleticism), Martial is not really slender, he's very strong and has a solid base. I've seen bigger men bounce off Martial at times. He is someone who can be a physical presence but with the ball on the ground, not as much when it's in the air although he has shown he can fight for it at times as well, it's not something I would say is his strength.
The criticism is understandable, he needs to step up his level basically. However, I do believe he has the talent to score 25+ or 30+ goals as a #9, the one thing he lacks at the moment is his determination to push it to that next level. I dare to say Martial has the same style as R9. Always drop to midfield to pick up the ball, great ball control, clinical finish, can score header, long range, solo, both feet & asset to beat his man which is completely different style to traditional 9 like Shearer & Ruud. Like Pogba, this guy tends to do everything by himself since his team mate is useless. Now that we have Bruno & Pogba in the team, I expect improvement in his game, less involvement to create everything for the team and this should make clarification either he will prove those critics wrong or right.
I'd have to disagree with you, on that. There was a fellow named Tom Finney who played wing or centre forward for England and Preston North End - played 76 times for England, scored 30, 434 club games, 188 goals.
I reckon the crowds who watched him would have considered Ronaldo a #9 or striker - even though Finney played in the 1940s and 50s. They also recognised Don Revie as a false #9 in the mid 1950s.
The 'traditional' centre forward is only one type of striker.
Everyone has their definitions, we can disagree on ours for CR7 but it's mainly off-topic. My main point of contention was with the idea that Martial is slender and lacking power, he's someone who can power through contact, on the run or dribbling, and he's actually not easy to push around, plus he's clever enough with his ability to shield the ball up front. He's definitely lacking certain qualities of a proper CF, mainly runs in the box for crosses, but he has enough solid attributes that are developing over the course of the season. I think he can surprise a lot of people next season with Bruno and Pogba, and if he doesn't I don't think there will be any more valid excuses for him.
Definitions again, I don't see AM 'powering' through, what I see is exceptional close control and enough pace/body movement to make it difficult for defenders to stop him in the box without giving a penalty away, combined with cool finishing. He's the classic attacking inside forward and has all the skills to be a top player - now it's up to him to grasp the opportunities.
I do agree that he's been playing in front of a not particularly creative midfield this season (until Bruno came) and has already shown how he can finish Bruno's through balls, so I'm optimistic to see what he (and Rash) can do in the remaining 8 games.
I don't know how optimistic I am myself for the remaining 8 games, especially considering the layoffs Rashford and Pogba went through, but I'm definitely excited for next season when they've all had a full pre-season together. Martial and Rashford will be in the most creative United side they've ever been in, and it should show with their best season, hoping injuries don't get in the way of that. Oh and bring in Sancho for good measure.
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You believe Inter would take Sanchez and cash for Martinez?
I would greatly disagree. We would have to pay his release clause and do we really want to spend nearly £100m on a striker who has had one great season?
Jimenez is a good striker but he hasn’t shown anything in any season to prove he is better than Martial.
His hold up play and link up is good but he’s not a better dribbler and Martial links very well with Rashford.
I deliberately left the challenge out there to see if anyone could confidently make a better suggestion and nobody did (not trying to be rude to anyone) but I think it proves the point I was trying to make.
Martial is good enough to be given a chance next season he’s not world class yet but he’s not as awful as some try to make out. He’s on the cusp I believe of putting up a world class season but I 100% feel if next season he doesn’t put up good numbers we then really entertain replacing him with someone else.
But right now back him.
I think we all understand the critics but I think they come from people who ignore the context.
I don’t think he lacks determination at all. He stayed and fought to get back into the team despite Mourinho buying Ibra and Sanchez.
I do however remember you being quite adamant that we desperately needed someone like Dembele in because Martial wasn’t good enough or has your opinion changed since then?
Glad to have you on board the Martial bandwagon!
People complaining that Martial isn't suited to our team because he isn't a pure number 9 and then consequently suggesting a player who is even less of a pure number 9 is hilarious and sums up the criticism Martial has received in this thread. Oh and by the way, Lautaro Martinez has the same number of goals as Martial this season and less assists but I'm sure that doesn't fit the narrative.
The short answer to that question is: no, he hasn't. But, he has been inconsistent largely because the squad around him has been inconsistent. So, while he hasn't proven himself, I think it would be premature to give up on him unless a much better option became available.
I haven’t complained about Martial, I think he’s a decent player to have about and hasn’t reached his peak yet.
I also don’t think he will ever be a top striker in the league or for United but he’ll chip in with goals and assists which is fine.
The guy asked for alternative strikers in the world to choose from as a replacement I give him one.
Martinez has Lukaku as the main goal threat too and he does play more central than Martial.
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I'd choose Martinez over Martial . He's younger. But he's definitely not worth 100m or whatever huge price Inter is quoting
To be honest I wouldn’t spend £100m on him, I think he has a better first touch than Martial and can play more centrally, he looks a better player but wouldn’t be wise signing him..
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Again we come back to nobody being able to offer a worthy alternative.
I think this thread is reaching a consensus.
Would we all agree the following:
- Martial should be backed for next season
- He has not done enough yet to be backed as our long term No9
- Next season he needs to show why he could be.
Martial is such a frustrating player. I can see why we we’re so terrified to see him leave.
He would likely go elsewhere truly fulfil his potential and be a superstar.
He would likely go elsewhere truly fulfil his potential and be a superstar.
Been saying this for a long time now. This is an acceptable conclusion
I’ll back him as long as he’s here, it’s not like he has been a massive failure. He’s given us some great moments and important goals.
I wouldn’t really want to sell him either unless it’s crazy money as he is a great squad member to have.
Still can’t see him being an Aguero or Kane type player a real go to man, but more a Lacasette type...
Lacazette type of player? Martial is probably the most disrespected player on this forum. Its only a matter of time before he is vindicated.
He can be a frustrating player, but I think Mourinho's handling of his potential is the most frustrating thing about his time at United. The signs indicate he's on the cusp of being one of the best strikers in this league. This season his goal record has been quite good - 16 goals with roughly 14-15 games left of the season (depending on how far we go in the cups) suggests he's likely to hit 21-24 for the season. Comparing him to other strikers for teams we're competing with he's clear of Firmino and on par with Kane and Abraham.
He's undoubtedly a better player technically than Abraham and has had to use that ability to drop very deep at times this season to compensate for our lack of creativity in midfield. He prefers playing one-twos and getting involved in quick exchanges with players to create opportunities and that's why he's always enjoyed playing with other technical players. Due to Pogba's injuries, Martial hasn't had the chance of playing as a striker with a proper provider in midfield, and the difference Bruno made to Martial's game is clear as day. He's scored 4 in the last 6 with Bruno alongside him and that's without Pogba and Rashford too.
As much as we deserve a consistent 25 goal season from Martial (which I'm expecting next season), he also deserves the chance to play upfront in a team that isn't disjointed and has other players on a similar wavelength to him before we can fully judge him. He's got a goal or assist every 120 mins this season and has the 2nd most goals against teams in the top 6 over the last two seasons after Aguero. I've bolded that because for me that's a key indicator as to whether a player truly has the tools of being world-class. Lukaku scored 1 goal for us against the big 6 in his 2 seasons here whereas Martial in fewer games has managed 8 goals in the league against them since the beginning of 18/19. He holds his own playing with or playing against top players, and his last game before the break against City was as complete a performance as you'd hope to see from a United striker against a team like that. He's good for the team, and he's better than a significant proportion of the players that have been mentioned as potential replacements for him.
Finally, I recently came across a tweet that we haven't had two players score 20 goals for us in a season since 2010/2011. Since then we've had Rooney, RVP, Falcao, Mata, Di Maria, Lukaku, Sanchez at the club. Rashford and Martial are going to break that duck together, and they deserve their respects for doing so in my opinion.
What’s wrong with Lacazette? He’s a £50m striker capable of doing it by himself when he’s at it and can score wonder goals, but he’s no Aubayemang same as Martial..
If you’re going to argue any different then you definitely got the rose tinted glasses on..
Martial has done enough to deserve a spot in the rotation. If we actually strive to compete at the highest level again, then he certainly hasn’t done enough to be an automatic in the starting 11. He has plenty of talent, but he hasn’t reached the required level yet. i hope he gets there. The next couple of seasons will be make or brake for him, as it relates to become an elite player.
Top post, not the first time either coming from you. Agreed with everything you've said. Martial deserves more respect for what he has done despite the circumstances, but as this team tries to go from rebuild to contender, he now has the creativity you'd want to have his best season. I think most people will agree he deserves to show what he can do as the main man up front, and if he falls short then we can move from that idea to making him a squad player that can cover both left wing and up front.
Tony’s definitely frustrating at times but he’s looked really sharp this season and seems to be settled now. He seems to have struck up a good partnership up with Bruno as well which will only get better, I can see him kicking on another gear next season as well. All the talent is there it’s just getting it out of him on a consistent basis, hopefully we’re seeing that now.
Martial is over-rated; we'll be giving him his testimonial in a couple of years, and we are still asking ourselves if he is good/consistent enough.....I'd rather play Ighalo, a proper striker.
Agreed. He is not far away from hitting the level we need. Despite an injury at one point he has racked up a decent tally in a completely none creative team (before bruno came). He doesn’t have the positional sense of a Kane or even an Ighalo, who can bend runs and create space in a tight box, which is something to improve.
I think he gets a lot of sick because when he is not getting the ball he can go missing. He reminds me of Berba in that aspect. Compared to Rashford for example, who will be chomping at ankles trying to force his way into the play.
The 'balance' of this season is going to be very interesting - your comments about players being rusty are on the money, but it will be the same for every team, so I'm optimistic, but do recognise it could turn out not so well.
The unfortunate aspect was our team had found a vein of rich form as the season was suspened, but heyho, that's life.
Mental. Martila is a 24 year old who's scored 16 goals this season including crucial strikes against City and Chelsea, and has an existing understanding with our best attacker in Rashford. And you'd rather play a 30 year old who's only scored 14 goals in over a year and spent the last 4 seasons in China.
Not meant to be a put down of Ighalo but honestly... obvious agenda posting is obvious.