Too much pussyfooting around.Sign him or move on.
Harry Maguire | Signed
- Thread starter davidmichael
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No idea. Was just an example of how someone can waffle out stats as you say, to suit their argument.
In 219 Premier League games Chris Smalling has:
• 2 assists
• 3 big chances created
• 517 accurate long balls
In just 101 Premier League games playing for worse sides Harry Maguire has:
• 6 assists
• 7 big chances created
• 471 accurate long balls
Safe to say you’re talking out of your backside @Havak
• 2 assists
• 3 big chances created
• 517 accurate long balls
In just 101 Premier League games playing for worse sides Harry Maguire has:
• 6 assists
• 7 big chances created
• 471 accurate long balls
Safe to say you’re talking out of your backside @Havak
I don't think a single person on here thinks he's worth £80m but then what Premiership player (especially if they're British) is worth their fee nowadays? AWB won't be worth the fee we eventually pay and James probably wasn't worth what we had to pay Swansea for him. Then you look at targets like Rice, Diop, Zaha etc. and the valuations that they're clubs are putting on them.
He is quite clearly better than what we currently have though, so comparing him to Smalling and Jones is silly.
It's not always this black and white though either. He can play long balls to Jamie Vardy over the top, while our players are trying to find Lukaku against deeper defences.
Maguire is clearly a better passer than Smalling, but is that hard? We all know that is probably Smalling's weakest area and why Southgate picks Maguire instead. I'd wager it would be harder for him to get these numbers at United unless a similar playstyle to Leicester can work at United (doubtful) and the amount of money in question just can't be worth the likely small boost in what he will do for our side in comparison.
Again, stats are just malleable to make you win your argument but someone can probably find stats to say why we should keep Smalling over an £80m Maguire.
I think you’re forgetting that Maguire played in the Premier League for Hull also. He also plays for England with the not so fast Harry Kane up top.
You called him a donkey and not good at passing, it’s clearly absolute nonsense. He’s miles better than all of our defenders on the ball and anyone who has watched him knows full well that his long passing stats are due to him passing between the lines and out wide, not twatting balls over the top to Jamie Vardy. His passing is something we are desperately missing at the back.
I don't think he is quite clearly better than what we have though. Maybe it's just my opinion but he really is not that good. I hope we pull out of the deal as I fully expect him to not be a big enough success at United and not improve our first XI enough to warrant the fee.
AWB is a risk but a young player could become your RB for 10+ seasons and be a very worthwhile investment if this comes about and the difference is IMO that (admittedly for one season) he looks an absolute stormer of a player and is significantly better than our other options in that position. Not just maybe a bit better. It looks like the most hyped / best full backs going rate is £50m~ now though looking at some of the more recent signings for that position. I don't think the same can be said for CB's personally, especially when the very best one went for less than what's being touted here. Maguire isn't among the very best in the position, IMO.
Correct. He rarely tonks balls long for Vardy to run onto, he tends to push the ball long to the flanks or between the lines.
That's where I'd disagree, I think he's easily one of the best CB's in the league but a part of that is due to a lack of quality CB's out there at the moment. VVD and maybe Laporte (at a stretch) are the only top class CB's in the league at the moment.
Is Maguire worth 80M? Hell no. Is he a significant upgrade on the shite we currently have? Yes.
I'll eat my words if he comes to United and transforms our defence / improves us on the ball. Extremely doubt it though. Like, massively. He isn't the one and you're hyping him up far more than what's warranted. Admittedly, I was over critical but most of the points still stand IMO. I think the cost is the main issue because I stand by the fact that in comparison to Lindelof/Smalling overall the difference in quality is marginal. If we were paying half the fee being talked about I'd probably take him at United but I think he'd be challenging for the position on the weekly with our current two first choice, not stepping in over one of them and constantly staying there.
Agree to disagree then.
But it does seem like last season our board decided that he wasn't much better than our current crop of CB's and refused Mourinho getting him. It would be incredibly odd for them to backtrack now and pay probably in excess of £20m more than what we could have gotten him at previously. Or maybe that's just how much of a farce they are?
This well bells on.
And the problem is, if we say no to Maguire, where do we go?
We’re likely not in the race for De Ligt, Kouliably is being priced out and even this fecker from West Ham is being quoted at 50-60 million?
We could take another chance on a player unproven in the Premier league like Bailly, Blind, Rojo, Lindelöf, or we could just say “feck it, we’re rich and being cheap last year cost us Champions League football and the windfall that goes with it, both from UEFA and Adidas”.
How much did it cost us to miss on out CL? A shitload right, probably half the price of what Maguire would have cost Mourinho last summer. Now that’s fecking stupidity at it finest.
Make no mistake, Maguire would be a significant upgrade for us in central defence.
I think the issue last year was clearly a lack of trust in Mourinho given his terrible transfers until that point and the statement re. only Varane being worth the money was pure shite to justify it.
I also think the board thought Leicester were overvaluing Maguire due to his impressive World Cup and that he’d be cheaper this Summer
ooopsToby is a better deal than him for the price. The scouting team and the board should sign players like these as early as possible just like we did back in the days of gill and Fergie and currently with James.
That is an interesting point though actually. Hypothetically, if this was the case, why has his price increased?I also think the board thought Leicester were overvaluing Maguire due to his impressive World Cup and that he’d be cheaper this Summer
I might be wrong but I think £45-60m was the fee floating around last time we were debating signing him. What has happened to increase that value by more than 25%? It should have stayed the same or even gone down IMO. I know the 'x player went for this and y went for that' is a pretty meaningless argument, but I just cannot fathom how he can go for more than van Djik
Maybe it's just because the Manchester clubs are apparently the only ones trying to sign him and they know we'd pay the big bucks.
Nar, they were talking 70m+ last summer also.
It’s pure stupidity to judge transfer fee vs. another, there are so many factors.
VVD was at a club with less money, was kicking up a fuss and desperately wanted to leave, showing zero respect to Southampton. He had less time on his contract. He was at the time, the most expensive defender ever.
United are a) desperate and b) filthy rich
Cancello will likely be sold for a similar price to AWB, transfer fees can’t be judges in the Maguire v VVD way you want to.
This is my opinion as well. For £25m you can get a couple of Toby's best years still while you search for the next top player to bring in. Alderweireld is a significant first-team improvement and almost 1/4 of the price, probably less wages even. It makes far more sense to me, but maybe he doesn't want to waste his last couple of peak years playing non-CL football? It's possible we are going to have to sign players who don't already have CL football to look forward to next season...
This is nonsense @Patrick08, the only difference in Fergie/Gill’s time was that we could even force the likes of Spurs to sell us players.
Maguire after the WC was almost identical to Rio from Leeds after his World Cup.
You’re rewriting history here, Fergie often let players mature in other PL sides before jumping in and United would bully the side to sell.
Rarely did Fergie buy from the lower leagues, he worked in a much simpler market for United. Cole, Yorke, Sheringham, Keane, Ince, Ferdinand, Rooney, Pallister, Valencia, Berbatov, Carrick.
The list of players SAF bought after they proved themselves in the Prem is enormous, it’s where SAF did most of his shopping.
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Smalling is even better than Maguire apart from his ball playing skill.
Multiple articles a few weeks ago: 'United not put off by Leicesters valuation of Maguire'
Few weeks later: 'United are £40m away from meeting Leicesters valuation of Maguire'
Doesn't make much sense. I really hope Woodward wasn't mad enough to think that they'd turn around and accept £40m. He must know that that'd be a counterproductive bid to make. Same goes for the alleged £25m AWB bid.
Hopefully it's just the media talking nonsense, I refuse to believe that someone could be so incompetent.
Few weeks later: 'United are £40m away from meeting Leicesters valuation of Maguire'
Doesn't make much sense. I really hope Woodward wasn't mad enough to think that they'd turn around and accept £40m. He must know that that'd be a counterproductive bid to make. Same goes for the alleged £25m AWB bid.
Hopefully it's just the media talking nonsense, I refuse to believe that someone could be so incompetent.
We’re the richest club in the world and in free fall so other clubs are milking every penny they can from us and seeing as we’re in free fall and with no Champions League the choice we have is either pay the premium to halt the free fall before it is too late or accept that we’re likely to lose our position sooner rather than later and see ourselves fighting for a Europa spot with the likes of Leicester, Wolves, Everton and Arsenal.
TV money means other clubs don’t need to sell or even want the money as staying in the Premier League is much better financially then selling players so if Maguire is available for £80 million then we pay it and move on to the next position that needs upgrading (right back, defensive midfield, central midfield, right forward) and pay what’s required to get our first choice targets.
We’re in the position we’re in now because of the piss poor management from the powers that be so now we have to pay what’s needed to fix that piss poor management over the past 6 years so if Maguire is £80 million then pay it, if Wan-Bissaka is £50 million with no add ons then pay it, if Rice is £50 million then pay it, if N’Dombele is £65 million then pay it and if Sancho is £100 million then pay it whilst at the same time getting rid of the deadwood and let’s move forward instead of the same bollocks every summer where Woodward spends months proclaiming “we can do things that others can only dream of” then we do feck all and sack the manager when we’re out of the title race and top 4 race by Christmas.
TV money means other clubs don’t need to sell or even want the money as staying in the Premier League is much better financially then selling players so if Maguire is available for £80 million then we pay it and move on to the next position that needs upgrading (right back, defensive midfield, central midfield, right forward) and pay what’s required to get our first choice targets.
We’re in the position we’re in now because of the piss poor management from the powers that be so now we have to pay what’s needed to fix that piss poor management over the past 6 years so if Maguire is £80 million then pay it, if Wan-Bissaka is £50 million with no add ons then pay it, if Rice is £50 million then pay it, if N’Dombele is £65 million then pay it and if Sancho is £100 million then pay it whilst at the same time getting rid of the deadwood and let’s move forward instead of the same bollocks every summer where Woodward spends months proclaiming “we can do things that others can only dream of” then we do feck all and sack the manager when we’re out of the title race and top 4 race by Christmas.
Apart from gulf in class between the two and also the age.
The point is, if Fergie did what you said he’d have at least bought Rio from West Ham, same for Carrick.
Fergie didn’t, he waited until they proved their class, then swooped in.
The point is its okay to sign elite category players when ever you have the chance to sign them, but not levels below talents for the price of elite footballers because you are desperate.
Fergie and signed Jones, Smalling, Wilfried zaha, early. It's a different discussion that they did not full fill their potential. Purely defensive wise Maguire is no better or slightly better than Smalling apart from their ball playing abilities.
Comparing elite category of talents like ferdi, carrick, Rooney to maguire does not help.
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Maguire is absolutely miles better, but opinions and all that.
As for Carrick, he was not a popular signing at all.
You’re also creating a strawman so let’s go back to the beginning here...
You said we should do like Fergie and sign talents like James which quite frankly is bollocks. Fergie’s fave market was Prem proven players, simples!!
Carrick was definitely not a popular signing, especially as the only business we did that summer was to sell RVN and buy Carrick - and he’d only been at Spurs around 18 months if I remember and his price went from £2.5m to £18.6m.
Hence the strawman from Patrick.
As I was saying, Fergie rarely signed Daniel James signings, much more often it was the likes of Carrick who was available for miles cheaper just 18 months earlier from West Ham. The similarities with maguire and Hull > Leicester are uncanny.
SAF as I say, worked in a completely different market in which he could let a player join even Spurs, prove himself and then just swoop in.
I can’t understand why we would retain any interest in Maguire, decent player but massively over priced, difficult to buy and plenty of alternatives.
It’s just an embarrassment it takes so long for club to realise what they should already know. Doesn’t feel like our transfer policy evolves or has much concept of reality.
We need to accept that we can’t buy likes of Maguire/AWB/Diop as easily or cheaply as in the past. Need to be prepared to either massively overpay or look at younger alternatives.
It’s just an embarrassment it takes so long for club to realise what they should already know. Doesn’t feel like our transfer policy evolves or has much concept of reality.
We need to accept that we can’t buy likes of Maguire/AWB/Diop as easily or cheaply as in the past. Need to be prepared to either massively overpay or look at younger alternatives.
This is the kind of point I want to get across, despite us quite desperately needing a CB obviously. If we signed Maguire, I think our first XI improves only slightly. Someone like AWB IMO improves it a lot, so paying what is IMO probably £20m over the odds is worth the risk involved as the reward is greater.
I've looked into our transfer business in the past and to my surprise, our biggest net spend was £138m~. With roughly £180m~ as the biggest outlay we've ever gone to (but that even includes Sanchez's cost from January). Not including January, it was closer to £175m in another season (£131m net). Right now, we have signed James for £15m~ and look set to land AWB at £45-50m~, let's call it £45m for this example. That's £60m on two players and now we're talking about an £80m Centre Half. £140m would be our biggest ever net spend in a season if we did no other business (almost certainly not happening). I actually don't think we can sign another defender in this price bracket if we want to sign a midfielder or forward of any outstanding quality, because they traditionally cost even more money. We'd be talking close to a £300m outlay whilst only gaining money back for say Rojo, Darmian, and Sanchez/Lukaku which would still see us with a net spend of over £200m which we didn't give to van Gaal or Mourinho. Are we going to give that to Ole right away? I personally think not. Is Maguire going to be the difference for us? Or would you think the big £80m+ signing is better spent on an attacking player who should make so much more of a difference? Is blowing most of our transfer kitty on a CB and relying on the same attacking players as last season going to move us forward? I personally think not.
Of course, if we sold Pogba then it's probably a different kettle of fish if we got the £150m~, but that's likely a whole other debate.
IMO, steer clear of Maguire or anyone in a similar price range. If we want to plug the gap and increase the quality at CB whilst having funds to buy match winners, then sign Toby Alderweireld if we can. We can search for another CB in the 2-3 years Toby is here. Just my thoughts on the matter anyway.
does his price tag rise by £1m at AOB every evening? Boy, is he not worth the asking price... (I don't believe fora moment City want him)
I've seen this so often, but what are the alternatives?
Everyone posts "there are loads of alternatives" yet when pushed, no fecker can give any.
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Maguire isn’t a superstar, he isn’t world class and isn’t the finished article. If all we can come up with to improve our defence is Koulibaly, Maguire, De Ligt or Diop it’s comical.
There are good players in France, Spain, Germany and Italy available for less. I cannot understand how a year passes and we are still focused on the same player who we weren’t prepared to pay asking price for a year ago whose value has now increased.
It’s all reminiscent of the Moyes transfer window with no war plan or understating of who is available or how much they will cost and shows how out of touch we are with the top clubs.
Agreed .We have only ourself to blame for this poor management. We're in very weak position the only way to stop the freefall is pay the money . Maguire and AWB is overpriced but it's worth it if dross like Young, Smalling and Jones is benched.
Ah, so another who says ”there are plenty of alternatives” but fails to name one.
For me it’s simple, if we’d spent 70m on Maguire last year we’d be in the Champions League now and at least half of that fee would have been recouped through CL participation and Adidas bonuses. Being cheap in our position is absolutely idiotic.
The option you speak of is the tried and trusted Lindelöf, Rojo, Bailly, Blind dead end we have been driving down for 6 years since Rio & Vidic left us.
Move on to who?
Who knows.But we have over 60 scouts for this job. If he is the one decided on, pay the money.
There are a dozen at least, I don’t see need to list names. Scouting them and making right decisions isn’t easy but it’s better than wasting time on the same targets you don’t really have intention of signing.
We’ve been driving down a dead end no matter who we buy, Pogba and Lukaku haven’t made much difference and look at what they cost. Anyway you name dropped Vidic, a cheap, relatively unknown and unheralded player, someone you’d now turn your nose up at. Price doesn’t define a player or guarantee anything.
You can say it’s simple but your not being realistic. This club isn’t going to spend like Real Madrid, they didn’t think Maguire was worth it last summer they won’t think he is this summer so move on. Buy players that fit the plan/strategy/profile instead of someone like Maguire who will cost a world record fee you aren’t prepared to pay.
AWB and Maguire would cost 130m give or take, I find it comical people think there aren’t alternatives for that money. I doubt there are many teams still in the world with a RB and CB that cost as much.
Agree with all of your points.
At least name a couple, or perhaps you can’t! It’s ok to go back on your comments...
It’s all good and well saying there are better options out there, but where? Everyone knows Maguire is not a world class player, but he’s available, of the right sort of age, has PL experience, and is looking to step up.
The reality is that the very best players rarely move in their prime. Everyone would be happy to pick up a great CB for £20-40m, but where from?
He can't name any man.
He wants a Vidic, which is always a gamble a la Bailly, Rojo, Lindelöf, Blind. Personally I'm sick of these risks and don't want the club to throw our eggs into that basket again, it's been 6 fecking years since we lost Rio and Vidic.
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