Harry Maguire involved in incident with police in Greece - conviction nullified by appeal, full retrial pending

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InfiniteBoredom said:
This is not aimed at you specifically, but I think this particular attitude is also part of the reason why many people here are vocal condemning Maguire.

There’s nothing to ‘get behind’. He’s been entangled in a legal situation and now has legal representation to sort it out. As people wholly unrelated to the situation and are not privy to the legal proceedings, let alone the truth of the case, all that’s left to us is to speculate, not taking sides. Just because he’s been a quiet chap doesn’t mean he wasn’t capable of momentary stupidity, or being Man Utd captain entails him to our unconditional support in matters wholly unrelated to sport, and vice versa, just because the police presented the story as his crew being the aggressors doesn’t mean it’s the truth.

I find it very weird that people are getting emotional over something like this.
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You got everything wrong, mate.

Some of us are coming now into the conversation to ask for patience and perspective, seeing some people labelling the guy as guilty already, and asking for punishment and hard measures as he was "obviously drunk", and the police "must be right" and so on.

If something is weird here is your poor attempt of excusing those throwing crap to the man since the beginning. Actually some of them have been unbearable since his idol Mourinho left and all they have to share here is poison in every thread, so they don't need an excuse to keep spreading their crap.

In my case I never suggested that he's automatically innocent for being a quiet guy, so you're saying nothing here. What I say is that he deserves some margin at least to defend himself properly before we reach final conclusions, asking for punishments or measures like some are doing. I'm seeing journalists telling the guy HAS to apologize, which is ridiculous if you think about it. Is that also a reaction based on some emotional defence? Or is it a flying agenda?

And don't fool yourself, because here there's just two options: doing what Southgate did and leaving him like a liar, or believing the man's words until everything gets clarified. Getting behind him means keeping things as normal, being the captain, supporting him as before, and not taking measures against the man. If after that appeal he's guilty again there will be time to speculate and do whatever, but we are talking at the minute about an innocent man.
 
Drainy said:
Plausibility it was in a vehicle that wasn't related to the police, having been attacked by people who weren't police and the van driver not communicating that they were not going where they were expecting to after the driver was directed to go there by plain clothes police when they were there they were arrested immediately by plain clothes police.

We don't know how repeatedly they hit the police or for how long they resisted.

I find it more likely that they didn't know they were the police based on what we know and the people involved. It would be remarkable for a decent person to randomly attack the police one day without there being an explanation and even the cops say he wasn't drunk to the point where he couldn't walk straight so that doesn't cut it.

More likely they were apprehended without notice of the arrest or identification of the officers and rightly fought them off until they proved they were police being who they are didn't like that.
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Good lord. Have you ever been arrested?

It's a fecking scuffle. There are no arrest warrant. Most crimes are minor crimes. You did it, you get your arse hauled off to the police. Inside you're asked on what happens and there it starts.

No need to make a drama out of it as some sort of illegal abduction.

For me it's pretty clear. Harry mistook them for thugs and probably assaulted them. Fair enough it happened.

But after knowing they're actually real cop this is where you should act smart, defuse and perhaps actually apologize? Because at the end of the day it's a misunderstanding that resulted in him assaulting the police.
 
Withnail said:
So you're making it up based on no source at all?
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I'm basing it on high profile suspended jail sentence cases. It's on the condition that you choose to pay the penalty. Check google for historical cases involving any high profile person Plenty of sources.
 
Drainy said:
the police have ID for that reason and they swore that they showed it.

where is the cctv, where are the body cams proving it?

It's more believable that the police messed up by not identifying themselves than a professional footballer with a great reputation to start attacking police officers.

They even said that Maguire wasn't that drunk and was walking straight. It's not a straight forward drunk brawl. Plausibly there was legitimate confusion caused by police incompetence.
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I’d like to ask why is it more believable? Because you’re more likely to believe that or want to believe that.

There’s been lots of posters here saying if their sister had been stabbed/assaulted/prodded whatever you want to call it they’d defend her and kickoff and whatever else, fair enough. So what’s to say that when Harry or a family member realised their driver had taken them to the police station instead of hospital when their sister had been attacked and feinted they kicked off and wanted to know wtf was going on? No matter how nice a family they are or how well respected Harry is Resisted being arrested because they wanted to get to the hospital with their sister. All sounds pretty plausible.

nobody here really knows how it went down but it’s easy to make up stories
 
Sky1981 said:
Or why cant harry says sorry mate. Didnt knew you're the real deal. He got off and everyone happy.

If I'm the judge presiding his whole case having to read how your media twisted it into some kind of corruption fannfiction feat. Greek gestapo and albanian gangster you'd bet I'd thrown him the book.

I'm not irritated by our captain. He's stupid, he made mistakes, we all did. I'm irritated by the british media that are profiting from this small issue by creating fan fiction that made the greek sounds like al capone.
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How do you know its truth or fiction?

Are you guessing?

I doubt you'd apologise if you had been targeted and had done nothing wrong.
 
Jonno said:
Ok, so he's innocent then. Yet what i'm seeing in this thread is repeated defamation of character by claiming Harry is guilty, when the judgement has been voided.
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I agree. Some wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt right from the start because he isn't VVD. It really is as simple as that with some of them.
 
Jonno said:
Ok, so he's innocent then. Yet what i'm seeing in this thread is repeated defamation of character by claiming Harry is guilty, when the judgement has been voided.
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Defamation

Jonno said:
This is exactly how I see it to have played out.

They've seen a big financial target on his head and they've played a blinder. They do this kind of trick on british louds on a smaller scale all the time.
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Jonno said:
Because he will be fined heavily for it. He hasn't yet but that's the whole purpose of this saga.
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You have no problem defaming the Greeks.
 
Glad that he's now innocent. Lets get on with the season. My guess is that the Greek courts will drop the case in 6 months on the quiet. Around Brexit day would be good from their point of view.
 
Sky1981 said:
Defamation





You have no problem defaming the Greeks.
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There's a distinct differnece though, isn't there.

Harry Maguire by law is innocent. His appeal has triggered his innocence. People that say "he is guilty", are wrong.

My opinions on what may or may not have happened with the Greek police, is open to debate because their conduct hasn't been judged in court.
 
Zlatan 7 said:
I didn’t realise our players had so many family members on here :)
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This has nothing to do with family members. A case happened where one of our players was in an incident in an unclear story. One side says he assaulted a cop, the other says he was trying to protect his sister. The story is so jumbled tha noone really knows what happened. The press caught wind of it and already labelled him guilty, before hearing how hunky the case is.

Before anything was even clear we had our fans asking whether he should be stripped of the captaincy or sold, some even after the revelations about his own story came out. This isnt Suarez vs Evra where racism occured on video, this is Macguire in a case against Greek cops. At worst, he had a bad night where he got unlucky...an incident in which lots of players have been in, at best he really did nothing wrong. The fact that people are so quick to want to punish him instead of support him shows why some of our players feel unsupported. Our fans find it cool to hate our players. I dont think he should be stripped even if he were actually guilty, and from accounts, the story isnt straight forward enough to be sure of that. Not saying the cops are lying either, but to simply dismiss our own player at a time when something this serious is happening to him is really disappointing.
 
Sky1981 said:
Greek cops are corrupt until proven otherwise
Harry is innocent until proven otherwise
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Some Greek cops are corrupt. Not all. But a significantly higher percentage than in just about any other European country. That's not opinion, it's simple fact.

As such, there is a large enough element of doubt that we should continue with the 'innocent until proven guilty' attitude at least until the appeal is heard.
 
Smores said:
I honestly don't care if he's guilty or not, it's not the big issue some are making it out to be.

Balance on the discussion is useful though isn't it?

Rather than just accusing anyone who doesn't automatically jump to the support of Maguire at all costs as some how being agenda driven? That's what you've done and it kind of nullifies sensible discussion, it's also a bit ironic (don't you think).

So we've gone from 50 to 400 pages, is this all rumour again? The facts of this case change a lot on here.
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Its not arguing against balance, if it were we would all basically be in agreement to wait this out. Theres nothing wrong with supporting your player in a case like this until all evidence is presented.
Its those who jumped in demanding him to be sold or stripped before the case is heard, then jumped on him being declared guilty so factually it means he is this and that, then still going on despite Harry being innocent as he stands. If they followed their own argument then factually he is innocent and we should wait until the appeal.
But no. There is no slowing down now.
Being declared innocent has put a hole in a lot of arguments here, but now its disguised as balance of discussion.
 
Jonno said:
I'm basing it on high profile suspended jail sentence cases. It's on the condition that you choose to pay the penalty. Check google for historical cases involving any high profile person Plenty of sources.
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I'm aware that this has happened in the past in other jurisdictions etc but the first one wasn't so why should the second one? It doesn't logically follow.
 
tjb said:
This has nothing to do with family members. A case happened where one of our players was in an incident in an unclear story. One side says he assaulted a cop, the other says he was trying to protect his sister. The story is so jumbled tha noone really knows what happened. The press caught wind of it and already labelled him guilty, before hearing how hunky the case is.

Before anything was even clear we had our fans asking whether he should be stripped of the captaincy or sold, some even after the revelations about his own story came out. This isnt Suarez vs Evra where racism occured on video, this is Macguire in a case against Greek cops. At worst, he had a bad night where he got unlucky...an incident in which lots of players have been in, at best he really did nothing wrong. The fact that people are so quick to want to punish him instead of support him shows why some of our players feel unsupported. Our fans find it cool to hate our players. I dont think he should be stripped even if he were actually guilty, and from accounts, the story isnt straight forward enough to be sure of that. Not saying the cops are lying either, but to simply dismiss our own player at a time when something this serious is happening to him is really disappointing.
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Please.

He made up a story about Albanian thugs drugging his sister - we know this because the sister mysterious didn't mention it at all to the police! Only Maguire did the day after.

It's incredible how people can trick themselves into believing that Greek police just made this all up. There were at least 20 PL footballers in Mykonos last week and yet all except Harry ended up being "lied on"? He clearly messed up and clearly at least did SOMETHING wrong.

He is legally "not guilty" but he is not INNOCENT. If you guys want to be so pedantic and careful with your words - be correct. He was found guilty but appealed, that does not make him innocent.
 
snowkarl said:
Please.

He made up a story about Albanian thugs drugging his sister - we know this because the sister mysterious didn't mention it at all to the police! Only Maguire did the day after.

It's incredible how people can trick themselves into believing that Greek police just made this all up. There were at least 20 PL footballers in Mykonos last week and yet all except Harry ended up being "lied on"? He clearly messed up and clearly at least did SOMETHING wrong.

He is legally "not guilty" but he is not INNOCENT. If you guys want to be so pedantic and careful with your words - be correct. He was found guilty but appealed, that does not make him innocent.
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We don't know most of the facts and everyone should stop being so absolute about details.

The only things we seem to know are the facts on record that has been repeated. We don't know the full extent of what the sister said to the police.

We don't know if it was ever the Maguire's that said anything about Albanians. That could have been the press or a local witness saying it looked like they argued with Albanians.

Until Maguire makes a full statement, in court or otherwise, we won't know what he claims. And it's unlikely for him to make a full public statement before it all goes to court, lawyers usually advice against saying anything in public.

Nobody reasonable is saying the police is outright lying, but they might be overreacting. To the letter of the law even just putting a finger on a police officer is considered assault. If he actually beat them up they would never suggest that he could apologize to have most of this go away.

It seems likely that the Maguire's were in a traumatic experience, and when plain clothed police intercepted we don't know anything about how clearly they identified themselves. But we have heard several times that when Harry realized it was actually police he tried to explain to them what had happened.

Since he appealed he must feel that he was treated unfairly. He could have just taken it on the chin with no real repercussions if not. He technically got a slap on the wrist, but it sounds extreme in the media with 21 months (that he wasn't going to serve anyway).

Oh and according to Greek law he is now innocent until proven guilty, again, since their appeal process nullifies the first verdict.
 
Withnail said:
I'm aware that this has happened in the past in other jurisdictions etc but the first one wasn't so why should the second one? It doesn't logically follow.
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Ok, lets wait and see. I'll stick something in my calendar to re-visit with you when the re-trial happens. A rich footballer being found guilty will not get off without paying a considerable sum.
 
snowkarl said:
Please.

He made up a story about Albanian thugs drugging his sister - we know this because the sister mysterious didn't mention it at all to the police! Only Maguire did the day after.

It's incredible how people can trick themselves into believing that Greek police just made this all up. There were at least 20 PL footballers in Mykonos last week and yet all except Harry ended up being "lied on"? He clearly messed up and clearly at least did SOMETHING wrong.

He is legally "not guilty" but he is not INNOCENT. If you guys want to be so pedantic and careful with your words - be correct. He was found guilty but appealed, that does not make him innocent.
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If someone is initially found guilty, then appeals and has a re-trial. That person's guilty verdict is null-voided and is deemed "innocent until proven guilty".

It's literally the law and you're still arguing it. Jeeez.
 
lsd said:
Well if Maguire ever says anything racist on the pitch we now know which can members will be wearing tee shirts supporting him .



Blinded by loyalty or blinded by stupidity ? I think we all know it's the latter .
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Feck off
 
Most boring news saga I have ever witnessed. He’ll get a sentence and a fine, never go back to fecking Greece and who cares in about two weeks? I know celebs are attacked more than us when they’re about - but that’s something they have to anticipate in advance - that’s part of earning two yearly wages in one week - seriously. It’s not difficult to get away from attention when you’re on holiday, and for god’s sake, stay away from pissed Brits when you’re there during Corona. There is a 100% chance rival fans will approach him if they see him drinking in the pubs, this attention on him should have been avoided. I don’t really care if he’s captain as that role counts for zero these days, but his smartness here is missing.

Same with AWB. Don’t go to fecking Dubai if it’s on the red list from the go, stay in the UK and concentrate on the upcoming season. Traveling is not a human right every year, lo and behold!
 
Jonno said:
Ok, lets wait and see. I'll stick something in my calendar to re-visit with you when the re-trial happens. A rich footballer being found guilty will not get off without paying a considerable sum.
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He just got found guilty, was given a suspended sentence, and didn't receive a fine.

I don't know why you're being all 'I'm gonna come back and tell I told you so' about it.

You've yet to give me any reason to believe your prediction beyond conjecture. But yeah bookmark the bejaysus out of this, if you makes you feel better. You might win some internet points, good lad
 
lsd said:
Well if Maguire ever says anything racist on the pitch we now know which can members will be wearing tee shirts supporting him .

Blinded by loyalty or blinded by stupidity ? I think we all know it's the latter .
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And we know which member who has it in for Maguire, constantly jumping in on any negativity without even knowing the full story, along with bizarrely concocting, for no apparent reason, racial scenarios.. :wenger:
 
lsd said:
Well if Maguire ever says anything racist on the pitch we now know which can members will be wearing tee shirts supporting him .



Blinded by loyalty or blinded by stupidity ? I think we all know it's the latter .
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Any other outlandish hypotheticals you’d care to share? Maguire ordering ethnic cleansing of people with small heads? You contributing something worthwhile to this debate?
 
Sky1981 said:
That's how they do it, that's how their book of law stated, that's how they treat everyone equally tourist or citizen, how's that not fair?

You do now that postpone is a request, it may or may not be granted. Do you?

What's not fair? That Harry Maguire is treated according to their law? The same ruling that has been created years before Harry Maguire gets in trouble? It's not like they created one rule specifically for him.
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The greek judicial system is, to put it very bluntly: Flawed.

I understand from your point of view that you don't give two shits about that but I'll reply anyway.

Greece has a lot of problems domestically especially after the last finance crisis. The justice is slow moving and has a tremendous backlog. This has resulted in poorly educated judges, corruption and cases where lower courts simply make up rules.

Accoring to the WJP Rule of Law index which ranks nations based on a large variety of social, economic and judicial factors, Greece is ranked as the most corrupt legal system in Europe.

https://worldjusticeproject.org/rule-of-law-index/country/2020/Greece/Criminal Justice/

Case in point: Prosecution presenting evidence without giving defense counsel time to review evidence, and a summarily ruling by the court at haste. No wonder the verdict got overturned on appeal. It was a sham.

In Congo many years ago there was a now infamous trial where two Norwegians were on trial for murdering their driver. They proclaimed their innocence but were convicted anyway. The point was not the conviction, but the stories the congolese prosecution made up as they went along: They demanded Norway pay more money than actually exists in the world for espionage because they had binoculars, so of course they were spies, and a host of other things.

The point about mentioning this outlier is that hearsay and "I believe the police side of the story move on with your life" is very much a part of the juducial system in Greece. You're offering no belief to the point of view of Maguire and only believe the Greek Police's side of events, when its the greek police who have the burden of evidence.

So out of curiosity: Why don't you believe Maguires version of events?
 
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