[TheGame]

So, why is he to blamed for the goal again? I don’t see anything wrong with what he did for the Fulham goal.

I thought he did very well again defensively too and his progressive ball in that match also good. Bissaka the one played onside, full back shouldn’t be behind the line of the last centre back.

Because we have high class managers on this forum who have won trophies on Football Manager.

 

[Jonno]

I presume that everyone who opens like this is an arrogant cnut that uses this line to automatically positions himself to look as if he/she knows better than the person on the other side of the discussion.

He had absolutely no business being there considering Fred was there as well and he would have closed in on the runner if one was there. But hey, don't let me stop you from employing your superior Sunday league 3 a side knowledge to convince me otherwise.

Thats nice, cheer up we're top of the league. Are you that unhappy United won and Maguire was as usual put in a solid CB display?

Rio Ferdinand, not Sunday League 3, won everything, with Man United. He literally said it was fine for Maguire to make the decision to move over to where Shaw had vacated, but his partner, should read and understand it and react accordingly. Is he an arrogant cnut too? Or is the only arrogant cnut the person who's lost his head on an Internet forum and is clearly replying through tears?

 

[Idxomer]

I thought the goal was obviously AWB's fault as I was sure at first the it was offside. Surprised to come here and see people blaming either Maguire, Bailly or Pogba for it.

 

[Cassidy]

Rio said it was fine to do what he did.

You shift to deal with overloads. The major threat was their RW and RB being 2 for 1 on Shaw. Maguire moving across cut that option out for Fulham so their midfielder reassessed the situation and saw space vacated by Maguire but not covered by Bailly.

As I said Maguire made a decision it was fine to make that decision if you trust your partner. Maguire has done this many times with Lindelof filling in central with no issue.

Now the issue we do often have with overloads particularly when they occur on our left flank is that AWB often then gets left to deal with a cross filed pass over his head which he’s not comfortable with.

So what we saw last night was what happens when the other CB switches off and doesn’t fill in.

Rio didnt say it was fine. He said Bailly should have delt with it, but he also said hes gone over when he didnt need to because Shaw didnt go over. He is too close to Shaw

 

[Jonno]

Rio didnt say it was fine. He said Bailly should have delt with it, but he also said hes gone over when he didnt need to because Shaw didnt go over. He is too close to Shaw

Eh? He did say it was fine. He literally talked about Maguire's decision to move over and said "that's fine". He then went on to say Bailly should have spotted Maguire's decision due to the fact he could see everything happening.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Rio said it was fine if Shaw hadn't held his position and went to mark the other Fulham player. Shaw did hold his position though. Maguire made a call and it didn't come off. I think he is at fault to a degree but the sticker is that he'd would have been equally criticised if hew didn't follow his and and Shaw had been exposed on a 2v1 and that led to a Fulham goal.

Bailly doesn't react to the developing danger at all which is the major error.

 

[Solius]

I don't know whether it was him and Bailly's fault, or AWB for playing Lookman onside but Maguire has definitely been in great form recently.

Gets his head to absolutely everything and my one criticism would be his attacking headers. It's like they just bounce off a corner of his cube head or something.

 

[romufc]

Maguire is following the ST so Shaw is not 2 v 1. Surely as a defensive set up, the RCB and RB should be looking at this, Bailly can see everything and Lookman is the LW coming in, AWB is behind him so that area is covered.

Surely, he just steps in and AWB does the same and cuts the space out?

Maguire is not to blame on that.

 

[Anustart89]

Rio said it was fine to do what he did.

You shift to deal with overloads. The major threat was their RW and RB being 2 for 1 on Shaw. Maguire moving across cut that option out for Fulham so their midfielder reassessed the situation and saw space vacated by Maguire but not covered by Bailly.

As I said Maguire made a decision it was fine to make that decision if you trust your partner. Maguire has done this many times with Lindelof filling in central with no issue.

Now the issue we do often have with overloads particularly when they occur on our left flank is that AWB often then gets left to deal with a cross filed pass over his head which he’s not comfortable with.

So what we saw last night was what happens when the other CB switches off and doesn’t fill in.

A 2v1 on the wing is hardly more dangerous than a 20 yard gap in the middle of the pitch 20 yards out. Do you really believe that? 2v1s on the wing happen all the time when full-backs overlap (just look at City) and they usually lead to crosses and cut-backs which are most often dealt with by a settled defence.

Maguire made a decision to leave his position which would've been fine if Bailly had read his mind or reacted to Maguire's decision to vacate his position. If you want to call it Bailly's mistake, that's fine and we'll agree to disagree. I just don't think that opening up a gap in the middle is a better option than shutting down a potential 2v1 on the wing. Especially since Bailly covering for Maguire would've left a hole in Bailly's position until AWB realised and reacted. Every reaction takes a bit of time, so Maguire leaving to go defend the left wing leads to a delay until Bailly reacts to that and a delay until AWB reacts to that, at which point there is ample time to exploit any of the gaps left by Maguire's initial decision.

https://streamvi.com/watch/1611174085

Look at the video and pause it at 9 seconds. Is the danger from the right back that imminent that a gap in the middle must be left to shut down the threat? I mean, Maguire sees the entire situation and could've told Shaw to tuck in and have Martial follow the right back, or Fred move out towards him. Instead, Maguire just goes walkabout to prevent no imminent threat and then Pogba and Bailly are supposed to pick up the slack for him and take responsibility for the gap that he left to defend a much less threatening situation.

 

[Anustart89]

Maguire is following the ST so Shaw is not 2 v 1. Surely as a defensive set up, the RCB and RB should be looking at this, Bailly can see everything and Lookman is the LW coming in, AWB is behind him so that area is covered.

Surely, he just steps in and AWB does the same and cuts the space out?

Maguire is not to blame on that.

Is the threat from the striker so imminent that Maguire has to press him in the back and leave that gap? Maguire makes a poor decision which forces two players to react to it. If Bailly had left the defensive line to put needless pressure on a player not presenting an imminent threat he would've been called a loose cannon, brainless etc. Had Maguire just stayed in position and held the line then the striker would've received the ball with his back towards our goal and could've been pressed by Fred or Shaw. Instead, he opens a gap in the middle for a 1v1 and then Pogba and Bailly and Bailly are thrown under the bus because they don't react to his decision quickly enough.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I think he's the worst aerial finisher I've seen at United. Gets so many headed opportunities but you just know he's going to feck up the finish and put his hands on his heads once again.

Reminds me of Smalling in that sense.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The Fulham forward is goal side of Shaw ffs

What a fecking picture to use, ha ha.

 

[FrankDrebin]

The midfield and especially the defence are the sole reason we're top.

 

[romufc]

Instead, he opens a gap in the middle for a 1v1 and then Pogba and Bailly and Bailly are thrown under the bus because they don't react to his decision quickly enough.

Thrown under the bus? As a defender, if Maguire makes a poor decision, the partner should be covering, instead Bailly had his hands in the air when the ball was in play? What for? what was he appealing for?

Then after the ball gets played and he jogs?

 

[Isotope]

I think he's the worst aerial finisher I've seen at United. Gets so many headed opportunities but you just know he's going to feck up the finish and put his hands on his heads once again.

Reminds me of Smalling in that sense.

We never had players with great corner delivery when Smalling was here. Now most balls were put in plate for Maguire, just like today with a free header in penalty box.

 

[Reapersoul20]

He's playing class and anyone who says otherwise is a gowl.

 

[GledTheRed]

trampoline head.

 

[Cassidy]

Eh? He did say it was fine. He literally talked about Maguire's decision to move over and said "that's fine". He then went on to say Bailly should have spotted Maguire's decision due to the fact he could see everything happening.

No he didnt

 

[Lash]

I really like how he's got a bit of his confidence back higher up the pitch. Been using the ball really well and superb in the air (defensively).

 

[Adnan]

The midfield and especially the defence are the sole reason we're top.

We're at the top due to our manager playing to the teams strength which favours the defenders imo.

 

[Adnan]

@GifLord can you post the clip which led to Fulham's goal please.

 

[Jonno]

No he didnt

He literally did.

He said its fine for Maguire to go over if Shaw is going to move out. Then he goes on to say the problem he has, is Bailly not covering the space despite being able to see it all.

 

[Jonno]

Is the threat from the striker so imminent that Maguire has to press him in the back and leave that gap? Maguire makes a poor decision which forces two players to react to it. If Bailly had left the defensive line to put needless pressure on a player not presenting an imminent threat he would've been called a loose cannon, brainless etc. Had Maguire just stayed in position and held the line then the striker would've received the ball with his back towards our goal and could've been pressed by Fred or Shaw. Instead, he opens a gap in the middle for a 1v1 and then Pogba and Bailly and Bailly are thrown under the bus because they don't react to his decision quickly enough.

What you haven't shown, is the still image just before this, which clearly shows Shaw begin to move out wide , which routinely prompts Maguire to rightfully move out to the space Shaw was just about to vacate. Because the guy on the ball has moved inwards, Shaw has changed his mind and is now retreating but Maguire has already made his move over.

If Maguire doesn't move over to the player Shaw nearly left, then Maguire would have been exposed to Loftus-Cheek. Posters would have been slamming Maguire for not going out to him. He was right to move out, only for Shaw to then retreat.

Because the guy on the ball shifts inwards, this SHOULD prompt Bailly (and Pogba) to take Lookman.

The onus is ALWAYS on the defender that can see the whole picture. Maguire has moved over because Shaw started to move over (and then retreated). So Bailly can see the WHOLE picture and should move inwards, and as such AWB should move inwards.

Blaming Maguire is ridiculous.

EDIT:

Here's a fraction earlier, clearly showing Shaw moving out, Maguire CANNOT leave Loftus Cheek alone, because there's a long straight ball into his feet and into his space.


resurrection pictures free

 

[Crackers]

Solid game yesterday. Was partially at fault for the goal (for not trusting the shape of his backline). and frustrating to see him miss that header chance, but it's something he can improve on.

 

[SuperiorXI]

What's going on with Harry and scoring goals with his head? I seem to remember he used to do it regularly for Leicester and England... getting in the positions for us and getting his head on it but it always goes wide! His disallowed goal vs. Burnley was great, need to see more of that.

 

[Anustart89]

The Fulham forward is goal side of Shaw ffs

What a fecking picture to use, ha ha.

So you reckon that every time an attacker is in a position 30 yards from goal, turned towards his own goal, that it's a position that is so threatening that a centre half has to disrupt the entire defensive shape and leave a 20 yard hole in defence? What would've happened if Maguire had just stayed in his own position? The through ball wouldn't have been possible for an immediate 1v1 with out goalkeeper and the guy that Maguire went to shut down would've received the ball while turned away from our goal 30 yards out and Fred could've easily put pressure on him.

Thrown under the bus? As a defender, if Maguire makes a poor decision, the partner should be covering, instead Bailly had his hands in the air when the ball was in play? What for? what was he appealing for?

Then after the ball gets played and he jogs?

I agree that Bailly should have reacted once Maguire went walkabout and not doing so is a mistake. But: if Maguire hadn't disrupted the entire defensive shape to mark a guy 30 yards from goal who would have received the ball while turned away from our goal (and who could've easily been picked up by Fred upon receiving the ball), then nobody would've had to react to anything. So to hold Bailly mainly responsible for the goal when Maguire's pointless little expedition forces Bailly, Pogba and AWB to react is beyond me. Surely, if Maguire doesn't make a poor decision then nobody else has to react to anything.

In any normal situation, if player A makes a mistake and players B, C and D fail to react to that bizarre decision to just abandon the entire shape, people would say that player A's mistake is the main one leading to a goal.

If Bailly had gone up to pressure a player in a CDM position and left a gaping hole for Maguire to cover, people on here wouldn't have been blaming Maguire, that's for sure.

 

[Anustart89]

What you haven't shown, is the still image just before this, which clearly shows Shaw begin to move out wide , which routinely prompts Maguire to rightfully move out to the space Shaw was just about to vacate. Because the guy on the ball has moved inwards, Shaw has changed his mind and is now retreating but Maguire has already made his move over.

If Maguire doesn't move over to the player Shaw nearly left, then Maguire would have been exposed to Loftus-Cheek. Posters would have been slamming Maguire for not going out to him. He was right to move out, only for Shaw to then retreat.

Because the guy on the ball shifts inwards, this SHOULD prompt Bailly (and Pogba) to take Lookman.

The onus is ALWAYS on the defender that can see the whole picture. Maguire has moved over because Shaw started to move over (and then retreated). So Bailly can see the WHOLE picture and should move inwards, and as such AWB should move inwards.

Blaming Maguire is ridiculous.

EDIT:

Here's a fraction earlier, clearly showing Shaw moving out, Maguire CANNOT leave Loftus Cheek alone, because there's a long straight ball into his feet and into his space.


resurrection pictures free

I see your point, but you're not going to be able to convince me that leaving a gaping hole in central defence is preferable to having a player receive the ball 30 yards away from goal with his back towards our goal. Had the ball come in towards RLC, Fred would've had time to collapse on him since the ball takes a bit of time to travel or RLC has to move towards the ball to receive it. With him being that distance from the goal, there's ample time for the defence to settle.

In essence, Maguire should've prioritised the most dangerous area of the pitch instead of chasing a non-threatening player. Even if Bailly reacts to that (after a short delay during which he reacts to the new situation), Lookman would've had a similar space to run into, but in Bailly's position instead until AWB had time to react and shut that area down.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Why do people even post stills when HD videos are available? Stills are such a useless tool in these debates and are often misleading.

 

[Adamsk7]

Thing is, defenders make mistakes.even Van Dijk makes mistakes. I have no idea why we crucify Maguire when he occasionally does something wrong or when he misses a header on goal. largely, he’s an excellent defender who is basically a hoover in the air as everything lands on his head, has a good range of passing, is good on the ball and is physically dominant. I honestly don’t know what else he can do? It’s not his fault he’s a bit slow on the turn, he’s a big bloke!
personally I think he’s doing just fine and I also don’t care if he never scores a goal from a header so long as he continues to win everything in the air defensively, which he does. That’s his main job after all.

 

[Anustart89]

Why do people even post stills when HD videos are available? Stills are such a useless tool in these debates and are often misleading.

I posted a link to the video in the post right above the post where I posted the still. Depending on what point you're making, a still can give context, like for example "is RLC's position threatening enough to risk a 20 yard hole in central defence for?". On the evidence of the stills, you can safely make the point that his position and direction is not worth leaving a large gap in defence for. It's 30 yards out, he's turned away from our goal.

 

[Cassidy]

He literally did.

He said its fine for Maguire to go over if Shaw is going to move out. Then he goes on to say the problem he has, is Bailly not covering the space despite being able to see it all.

Yes IF and then he said Shaw didnt so what does that tell you.

I already said that about Bailly covering. Its not correct to say he said Maguire going out there is fine because thats not what he said

 

[Zen86]

I don’t know how anyone can blame Maguire for the goal, it’s like the Henderson clanger all over again. If Bailly does his job and doesn’t completely switch off then he doesn’t score. He clearly wasn’t concentrating. It’s quite simple.

Some people really put a lot of stock in Maguire, since he’s usually culpable for every other defenders mistakes.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I don’t know how anyone can blame Maguire for the goal, it’s like the Henderson clanger all over again. If Bailly does his job and doesn’t completely switch off then he doesn’t score. He clearly wasn’t concentrating. It’s quite simple.

Some people really put a lot of stock in Maguire, since he’s usually culpable for every other defenders mistakes.

It’s bizarre but after the Henderson one being blamed on Maguire, I’ve come to terms with realising a large portion of fans will find a way to blame him for any goal conceded.

 

[Zen86]

It’s bizarre but after the Henderson one being blamed on Maguire, I’ve come to terms with realising a large portion of fans will find a way to blame him for any goal conceded.

Imagine going through life with such resentment against one of your own players, baffling.

 

[roonster09]

It’s bizarre but after the Henderson one being blamed on Maguire, I’ve come to terms with realising a large portion of fans will find a way to blame him for any goal conceded.

Maguire got criticism for his body language after we conceded, nothing will surprise me after that.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I don’t know how anyone can blame Maguire for the goal, it’s like the Henderson clanger all over again. If Bailly does his job and doesn’t completely switch off then he doesn’t score. He clearly wasn’t concentrating. It’s quite simple.

Some people really put a lot of stock in Maguire, since he’s usually culpable for every other defenders mistakes.

I mean it is still a fault by Maguire as he has no need to be going where he is and is then out of position. However Bailly is the one that has the bigger picture and should be moving across to cover the space that has been created.

Even worse he can see the run, he can see the pass coming. He should be matching that run. It was an error from both of them but yeah once Maguire makes the initial error Bailly has to be seeing that danger.

Other than that I thought Maguire was decent. Should have done better with that headed chance he had but looked decent. Was a bit worried when he was sitting on the RW trying to play in the half space with Bruno, Bissaka and I think Greenwood but he did it anyway.

 

[romufc]

I don’t know how anyone can blame Maguire for the goal, it’s like the Henderson clanger all over again. If Bailly does his job and doesn’t completely switch off then he doesn’t score. He clearly wasn’t concentrating. It’s quite simple.

Some people really put a lot of stock in Maguire, since he’s usually culpable for every other defenders mistakes.

When you have a narrative: "Maguire is Over rated, Maguire is crap, he is the worst defender", every goal will have some portion of blame on him.

Considering we haven't conceded that many goals, its been a while since fans can blame him for a goal.

Sometimes I wonder if we play with one CB or two?

Clearly the other CB should be covering him.

Do you recall the Spurs goal last season after lockdown? People blamed Maguire and rightly so, but alot of people also blamed Lindelof for not covering saying, a CB with pace would have got there... Bailly put his hands up complaining to the I dont know who when the game is going on.

 

[Zen86]

I mean it is still a fault by Maguire as he has no need to be going where he is and is then out of position. However Bailly is the one that has the bigger picture and should be moving across to cover the space that has been created.

Even worse he can see the run, he can see the pass coming. He should be matching that run. It was an error from both of them but yeah once Maguire makes the initial error Bailly has to be seeing that danger.

Other than that I thought Maguire was decent. Should have done better with that headed chance he had but looked decent. Was a bit worried when he was sitting on the RW trying to play in the half space with Bruno, Bissaka and I think Greenwood but he did it anyway.

He went over to where the danger was, knowing the centre areas were covered. It’s standard procedure for a central defender and any suggestion otherwise is a classic case of judging a situation in hindsight.

Bailly wasn’t outnumbered, nor was it a difficult situation for him to handle. Fault is with Bailly because he made no attempt to track the very clear and obvious run which took place right in front of him.

 

[Zen86]

When you have a narrative: "Maguire is Over rated, Maguire is crap, he is the worst defender", every goal will have some portion of blame on him.

Considering we haven't conceded that many goals, its been a while since fans can blame him for a goal.

Sometimes I wonder if we play with one CB or two?

Clearly the other CB should be covering him.

Do you recall the Spurs goal last season after lockdown? People blamed Maguire and rightly so, but alot of people also blamed Lindelof for not covering saying, a CB with pace would have got there... Bailly put his hands up complaining to the I dont know who when the game is going on.

I don’t think I’ve seen an agenda on here as bad as the one against Maguire. These people clearly don’t watch football, or more importantly other defenders, very often. I genuinely think their expectations of a CB are based on YouTube compilations of VVD.

 

[GifLord]

@GifLord can you post the clip which led to Fulham's goal please.