Bizarre, isn't it! I'm sure you guys would be rushing to sign Lingard if he became available...
Harry Kane MBE | Performances
- Thread starter Samid
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Bizarre, isn't it! I'm sure you guys would be rushing to sign Lingard if he became available...
He's way better than Rash and prob a bit better than Martial too atm, or at least more consistent.
I can only assume the guy is trolling because if he truely believes Alli is on the same level as Lingard then I'm not sure if he has ever actually watched a football match in his life.
I think Alli has far more talent than Kane, but you can't knock the goals he gets. I still think he goes missing in the majority of big games and looks painfully crap against top defences - shooting from everywhere and anywhere. I just don't think he as much between the ears, but has great technique. I don't think he'll be a title winning striker 1st team striker any time soon.
Alli has more natural ability than Kane that's for sure. What Kane has in spades though is professionalism and a willingness to put the work in to improve himself. That will take him very far in the game. People talk Kane down a bit sometimes but his record speaks for itself, he is a world class goal scorer and is only going to get better. He may not look particularly skillful and doesnt move around the pitch with grace however he does the hardest thing in the game regularly which is to put the ball in the back of the net. If he can stay fit I see no reason why he can't continue to score 20+ goals every season, something which only a small elite group of strikers could achieve.
Can't agree with assertion that Alli is more talented than Kane.
Kane has more to his game than just goals he can have very good games even if he is not scoring whereas if you take away Alli's goals away at the moment there is not much to write home about Alli's overall contribution to the team. As far as Kane going missing against top opposition its more to do with lack of service from the midfield which Alli is suppose to be part of.
BringNaniback exists to be annoying, pay him no attention. Lingard is closer to Sutton FC's level than he is to Alli
As I said in Alli's thread, he's been almost exclusively playing as a forward and has give or take a goal or assist every 2.5 games. Martial, who I think we can all agree has had a pretty poor season and has played almost every game on the wing, has give or take a goal or assist every 2.5 games.
Rashford, who has also played most of his games on the wing and is younger and far less experienced, has a goal or assist roughly every 4 games. However, about 50% of his games have been sub appearances so tbh I would bet his productivity is also pretty comparable to Alli's.
But stats aside, in the completely subjective "how shat up are the defenders who have to face them" stakes I'd take Rashford and Martial over Alli all day.
Rashford and Martial are wide players/forwards. Alli plays through the centre. Very different positions and very different players. Rashford and Martial are forwards, Alli is an attacking midfielder. If they didn't have better or comparable stats re: assists and goals there would be something wrong.
See this is the only thing I have a qualm with, as he's been pretty crap on the "world level". There is no doubt he is bloody effective in England, is hard working and a great professional, but he's not performed in the CL and didn't really set the world alight in the Europa either. Does your record against big teams not worry you in that respect? Agree he probably will continually get 20 goals a season - which is not to be sniffed at - but when he doesn't do it against the big teams when you need the results, I think it's valid to question whether he's world class. I know I'm shouldering Kane with a lot of blame, but I feel he's overrated in the "world class" bracket.
Digressing slightly, but I think Alli is gifted and will be world class and make something out of nothing - provided he adopts an attitude like Kane!
I disagree. I think Alli usually plays further forward than Martial or Rashford. (Obviously not if they're playing up front).
I think it's the obvious things that will propel him into that top category - fire Spurs to some trophies, score regularly in the Champion's League, etc. I think he has it in him.
3 appearances and 2 goals in the Champions League so far. Not sure how that is not performing. The team havent performed but he has done just fine. 33 Europa league appearances and 12 goals isn't as good of course but it's not terrible either.
He is only 23 - for his age and his current goal record he is certainly at the very top level within his age bracket in world football. He is playing in one of the top leagues in world football and scoring regularly. Is it his fault England have been crap? Don't think so. He was taking corners in the Euro's ffs!
You think Alli is a striker then? He makes forward runs which gets him into the box but his starting position is midfield. You are getting where he ends up because of the exceptional runs he makes and his actual starting position and where he plays most of his football mixed up. He is a midfielder. Rashford and Martial start in more advanced areas than Alli and are clearly forwards.
I don't agree. Alli plays like an old school link man in a 442, just off the main striker. Which I don't get as his strengths are clearly more suited to midfield for me. He should be learning to cope with proper defensive responsibility not how to become an okay forward.
For reference see Barkley. Luckily Alli's manager isn't as mad as Martinez so he's still a chance of fulfilling his potential but it's not the way I would go about it.
No he doesnt, that is Eriksen's position - sitting on the edge of the box behind the main striker. Alli is so dangerous because he comes from deep and ends up in the box often because of the great runs he makes. He plays deeper than you think. If you look at our last match vs Fulham he ended the game in the centre of midfield. As I keep saying, Alli is an attacking midfielder who can also play in centre midfield. Rashford and Martial are wide forwards who can also play up front. Not sure why this is up for debate other than to try and deflect from the fact Alli's stats are so exceptional.
Hmm I think we're just completely conflicting in our views here. I really see very little from Kane when he's not scoring. but fair enough.
Is this about Kane or Alli?
So you play with no wingers and Alli plays deep. Righto.
Yeah but I don't really think you put those 2 goals in the champions league into perspective. 1 goal against Monaco and you lost the match? 1 goal against CSKA, who were the whipping boys of your group. Again, Europa goals are good in sheer numbers, but doesn't address the fact he's poor in the later stages.
Also, I think I confused you when I said England, as I meant the Prem, FA cup, etc. England national team is a whoooole other story which Kane has no blame in under performing there!
I'd just like to point out, I'm not saying he's rubbish, because he's far from it. I just think the world class striker is very premature and he hasn't shown much to suggest he's quite there yet.
Kane just loves a London derby, he definitely shows up against the big teams. I'm under the impression that his overall play is underrated, the boy is so much more than only goals.
Alli is a class player, he'll go far in the game.
Alli is a class player, he'll go far in the game.
I hope you are joking because what you have said in a sarcastic way is actually 100% correct. We play with no wingers - we use our full-backs for our width, Rose and Walker who overlap with our attacking players. We have no wingers in our squad (apart from maybe N'Koudou). Alli starts from deeper positions but because his runs are so well timed and difficult to pick up he often ends up in the box and is a great attacking threat as he often runs past Kane to get on the end of knock-ons etc.
Because Mhki, Mata and Martial are all better than Lingard so he shouldn't be in the team that's why i'm not slating Mourinho. They are all better than Dele Alli as well that's the point.
I didnt say he was world class striker - he isnt there just yet. I said he was a world class goal scorer which I believe he is. There is a slight difference in that to me a striker should be judged on more than just goals scored and he still has elements of his game that he needs to improve before he can be class as world class. His goal scoring record however is up there with the very best and is world class imo
And did you do the same last year?
Fair enough, I definitely see where you're coming from there.
His finishing is his real asset, he's a real penalty box striker but for the money Tottenham would want he doesn't offer enough yet.
When his teams are on top he usually does well, but when it's a tight game he goes missing far too much.
When his teams are on top he usually does well, but when it's a tight game he goes missing far too much.
That's a little harsh. He's a bit off being top class.
For me, his main asset is his movement and finishing ability. He can score any type of center forward goal, and can score against any type of opposition. The rest of his game is above average for me, and he has no clear weaknesses to his game. He may not be the most pleasing player to watch, but he works hard, is in the right place, and usually finishes his chance.
We have changed our tactics a bit and we are more flexible as a result but yeah we have not played with wingers once since Poch has been our manager.
In terms of Alli playing deep.
When he came to us he was mainly seen as a box to box midfielder year, obviously over time he has been involved higher up the pitch at various times during games.
He reminds me of Gilardino, who I liked.
(Kane that is)
(Kane that is)
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That wasn't what I asked. Does he play deeper now than he did last year?
Depends on the game. In general Alli is used as one of three attackers behind Kane. His defensive responsibility is not to hold a position or to cover space, as this is the role of Wanyama and to some extent Dembele. However, when we don't have possession he is dropping deep to help win the ball. He is not a holding midfielder, but nevertheless a midfielder.
In posession he is often allowed the freedom to find space and express himself. He is often involved in the buildup and rarely waits up the pitch for the ball.
At times this season he has played further up. Especially when Potch uses 3 defenders.
And regarding comparing stats with Scholes. Perhaps its easy to forget, but early in his career Scholes didn't play as a deep lying playmaker, but further forward. So comparisons between Alli and other great midfielsers can be justified in my eyes. He is definitely not any worse than those at 20 yeara of age. However, he has to continue to improve if he wants to be spoken about in the same breath as the best English midfielders.
But all the great "off the front" strikers in the Prem - Cantona, Bergkamp, even Zola or whoever - used to tuck in a bit deeper in tough games. Nobody ever called them midfielders. Their primary job was to create havoc up front.
Young Scholes was different because, although he definitely played as the second striker many times (after Veron came in particular), his main position was always playing alongside Keane or Butt in a 442. And he would still bang 10 or 15 goals from there no problem by arriving late in the box.
For my money Alli is talented enough to become a goalscoring midfielder (like I hope Pogba will), not some sort of half arsed forward.
If Alli isn't a midfielder then we only play with two midfielders; Dembele and Wanyama, and with 4 'strikers/forwards'. Alli doesn't play the same position Cantona and Bergkamp used to play; as a second striker. He usually plays part of a very narrow front three with Eriksen, Son etc behind Kane. When Son plays, he is usually further forward than Alli for example.
Our front 4's primary job may be to cause havoc up front, but their responsibilities also include a lot of defending. Alli is not someone who starts high up the pitch or waits for others to give him the ball so he can create/score. This is why I would call him an attacking midfielder and not a second striker (although I would say he has played more as a second striker this season, especially against Chelsea when we went 3 at the back).
I guess you're right that it's hard to compare Alli and Scholes too much seeing as almost no one plays 4-4-2 with two central midfielders and 2 conventional wingers anymore. The comparison with Pogba is interesting, they got a few similar qualities so perhaps they will end up being played in a similar role eventually. At the moment though, especially considering his age I think Poch is right to play him further forward and give him the freedom to express himself offensively; but in time it's not impossible that he becomes a more traditional B2B midfielder.
Ummmmmm you do know Koeman is Everton's manager now? Right?
And Alli has never played as a forward for us, he's an attacking midfielder. His movement is very much like Lamapards was but you would never say he was a forward.
We have been poor in Europe no question , but that's not really Kane's fault, as has been said he's scored the goals, but as a team we have under performed. Some comments on here about Kane are simply ludicrous, at his age having 83 goals career goals is exceptional. His touch, technique and knowing where to be are what makes him. you honestly tell me what other 23yo striker you would have over Kane?
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hahaha... Lingard's not top notch but at Sutton's level?
Thanks for your assessment, it's a good one I think. I see a lot of similarities with Pogba (Alli is a better finisher but not as skilful). However, where they currently differ is how their coach is trying to develop them. Mourinho is starting to get more responsibility out of Pogba by playing him deeper, whereas Alli is playing with much more freedom. I look back at Gerrard as a model of how not to develop top attacking midfield talents personally, and Alli is currently sailing closer to that development path than Pogba. Thing Alli has in his favour of course is Poch's enthusiasm for defending from the front and the fact that he's still very young.
However, where I disagree with you is that he's not currently more of a forward than a midfielder.
Heat map from that Chelsea game where he scored 2 goals:
