Harms/Joga vs Oaencha - Tactical Draft

Who created a better environment for their star player to shine?


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1. Reuter was a versatile defender who was also capable to play as a RCB with his NT
2. I don't believe in a clash of roles between Guardiola and Netzer: Guardiola was a collective player capable to play simply and efficiently
3. If he drops (and he likes to do it on occasions), Kanté & Verratti are not really the players who will take over offensively. Ideally, 4 players should be able to exploit offensively the passing skills of Netzer
There are 5 players who benefit from Netzer's passing. This was in my original write up:

Attacking
One of the main strengths of the team is the myriad of options going forward.

Netzer has support from every position on the pitch and wherever he passes there will be a player who can provide an attacking threat. He can play the ball out wide to Giggs and Alaba on the left or Bene and Reuter on the right. He can cut out the middle man and just play the ball through the centre to Inzaghi. Alternatively, he can just take the shot on himself. He scored countless goals from outside the area and has free reign to shoot if he has space. If he is heavily marked he can also play the ball back to Verratti who can continue the attack himself.

Rosato, Guardiola and Kante will stay back and cover in case possession breaks down.

There are three playmakers in the team; Netzer (advanced), Verratti (defensive or advanced) and Guardiola (defensive). All three have incredible passing skills and vision. They have the option of passing to each other through the middle or passing down the wings to Giggs and Alaba or Bene and Reuter.

Alaba and Reuter are both blessed with pace and have free reign to get forward. They have the option of either passing through the middle to Verratti and Netzer, passing down the wings to Giggs and Bene or overlapping them and crossing low into the box for Inzaghi. Reuter has a history of scoring screamers and is allowed to shoot from distance if he sees the right opportunity.

Giggs and Bene are both dynamic, lightning quick dribblers who can easily beat their man. Both are free to either speed down the wings and cross low into Inzaghi, wait for Alaba and Reuter to overlap or cut inside and take shots themselves.

Inzaghi will do what Inzaghi does best; hang around in the area looking for tap-ins, while creating space for Giggs and Bene.
 
The Playing Personnel

1) Naturally we wanted to surround Elkjaer with extremely direct and technical players who were forward oriented but also offered plenty of movement and creativity, and goalscoring threat to boot.

2) We didn't want to make Elkjaer a Benzema-esque presence but equally so we didn't want to burden him with all the goalscoring burden or the ball carrying burden - had to maintain a fine balance here after all


Blankenberg is fairly self-explanatory for his vision and ability to build up play from the back and utilise Elkjaer's counter-attacking threat and also his hold-up play and aerial threat (Blankenberg frequently used the aerial route for Ajax and it was a notable route to goal for Ajax for instance)

The wing-backs are experts at manning the flanks single-handedly and once again, just like Blankenberg (Ajax) have been utilised in fairly direct and exciting systems. Demyanenko for Lobanovsky's Kiev was a one man flank machine and Kaltz was tour de force for Hamburg and Germany with his marauding runs and bananaflankens, with Hrubesch being at the end of those fantastic crosses. With Robson, Streltsov and Bonhof capable of drifting out wide (with our very own Elkjaer expert at doing that himself) there would be no shortage of wide service for Elkjaer's or Streltsov headers, or Captain Marvel busting a gut to get on the end of one.

Once again the unpredictability of the creator-scorer dynamism only serves to enhance the chaotic and dynamic nature of the set-up and that's precisely the sort of environment that Elkjaer will thrive and wreak havoc in.

Bonhof has expertise playing in set-ups utilising a libero and also has the defensive and tactical acumen, discipline and versatility to go with his directness and long-range threat on the ball.

Robson's role has been questioned here but keep in mind that Robbo was definitely the antithesis of a Gerrard as I've been at pains to emphasise and he was absolutely brilliant at playing those one-twos, taking command over the midfield and providing his forwards with the ideal base to do their thing. Most importantly his ability to provide those penetrative runs and dynamism from deep was critical to utilising Elkjaer's facilitative nature and of course, his long-range passing was key for unlocking defenses with Elkjaer at the end of them. If anything, I see great similarities with Lerby here, a proper midfield general with an eye for goal. Robson-Bonhof is as complete as it comes (without much if any 'tactical baggage') and they should slot in seamlessly into a direct setup such as this.

Now, Deyna was a great playmaker and once again, to fully utilise Elkjaer's runs off the ball you'd definitely need someone to pick them out and we were at pains to pick a fairly dynamic playmaker of a roaming nature, rather than a static #10 like Riquelme or a direct running second striker who'd be at loggerheads with Elkjaer. Esp since, one of our prime objectives was to enhance the dynamism of the side and provide Elkjaer with ammunition but also allow his to return the favour. Deyna was the prime reason for Lato and Szarmach winning the Golden Boot and Silver boots with Deyna being the selfless supplyline for the three-pronged direct attack of Gadocha-Szarmach-Lato. He was excellent at creating chances for direct forwards and brilliant at picking out runs, which Elkjaer and Streltsov would relish.

Also keep in mind that Elkjaer's goalscoring threat has always been the subject of some heated discussions as many don't regard him as a clinical finisher, in the sense that having supporting goalscoring threats without overshadowing his own, were definitely ideal.
Deyna's goalscoring threat was also definite bonus in this regard. Neither of Deyna or Streltsov were pure or dominant goalscorers who could impinge on Elkjaer in this regard.

Streltsov is a huge X-factor who might enter genius mode and grab the headlines, rather than simply functioning nicely as a second striker. And so forth. All hypothetical, of course, but that's the territory.

Now Streltsov was definitely the decision which required the most brainstorming and I've already mentioned this before. I believed him too be too individualistic and taking away too much from Elkjaer as I believed they overlapped significantly. Considered him more of an individualistic runner (more of the Pele/Eusebio mould than a facilitative Bergkamp mould). Now @harms set me straight and those videos are the best thing to exhibit his selfless playing style and how he wasn't exactly a dribbler but more or a creative presence who was an excellent goalscorer in equal measures.

Very much a creative goalscoring reference point for Elkjaer's dynamism and explosiveness. In some ways similar to the relatively more free roaming and dynamic Chislenko/Byshovets feeding and playing off Streltsov.

The one-twos and the high tempo footie between Robson, Elkjaer and Streltsov was one of the prime reasons why we chose him. Streltsov also had the physicality to function as the auxilary spearhead when Elkjaer drops deep and allow him to feed off him, whilst also being capable of playing as a #10 who can play Elkjaer in when he makes those runs. Very much a malleable and a complete presence who can play a great supporting role. Precisely what he did for USSR post his jail-sentence. The pre incarcerated version would have overlapped with Elkjaer and he had too much of the X-factor as you've stated imo (something which I was initially afraid of going overboard too). However, the latter version suits Elkjaer to a tee imo, without infringing on Elkjaer's ability to make those runs or taking away too much from his ball-carrying freedom.
 
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Davids was meant more as an example; I knew (or had assumed) he was blocked.

It's more about the type of defensive transition needed on Verratti's side. Kante perfectly suits the bill and I would have preferred a similar player on Verratti's side to cover the potentially massive hole in defence behind him.

Either that or have one defensive full-back.
Alaba and Reuter are playing as hybrid wing back / full backs. Both are very good tacklers and will sit deep when defending. They are both very fast players with a lot of stamina. If they are attacking and we lose possession they can get down the wing in no time to defend.
 
@Oaencha can i ask why you didnt go "full Cruyff"? This way Inzaghi and Giggs really look strange in this system, others i like, even Kante and Reuter that some question.
 
Good effort by both sides.

Maybe @Oaencha can explain the Inzaghi choice as that seems an odd choice to get the most out Netzer?
Inzaghi knows where the net is and has fantastic timing. He will constantly be in the penalty area waiting for defence splitting passes from Netzer, Giggs, Bene and Verratti or low crosses from Giggs, Bene, Alaba and Reuter.

Netzer played some incredible passes and crosses in his time and he will do the same here with an outstanding, goal-hanging poacher to finish the easy chances.

As mentioned in my attacking strategy, whenever Netzer pushes forward he has a lot of options of where to pass; everyone is a goal-threat.
 
@Oaencha can i ask why you didnt go "full Cruyff"? This way Inzaghi and Giggs really look strange in this system, others i like, even Kante and Reuter that some question.
I didn't want to replicate any past teams or formations. I wanted to take a risk and try something new.

This formation is perfect for Netzer imo.

The idea is Netzer pushes forward and has two incredibly dangerous, fast players on the wing and a scoring machine poacher in the box. Netzer can play it out wide, through the middle into the box or take on players himself and shoot from distance. He has a completely free role with no defensive duties.

Giggs and Bene will just full on attack. They can either cross the ball low into the box for Inzaghi, wait for the overlap with Alaba and Reuter or just take on their man and shoot themselves.
 
@Joga Bonito I don't have a problem with Streltsov (older version) as such. It's the totality of normally important/influential/match winning types.

Replace Robbo with someone less prone to playing a blinder and scoring a couple of goals - and presto, you can field both Deyna and Streltsov.

It's a borderline absurd line of thinking, though, as it has little to do with compatibility: Elkjaer would work in that setup, I've no doubt about that. It's a question of how much he would shine.

How to make a non-typical star man shine sufficiently by surrounding him with players who must be fairly shiny, but not too shiny...or something like that.

Elkjaer was always a very important player for his team(s) - at times THE most important player, without being overly shiny or too much of a direct match winner. That sort of balance is much harder to re-create than the nigh-standard balance relevant to most of the star players in this draft - which one has to take into account when judging the effort.
 
@Joga Bonito I don't have a problem with Streltsov (older version) as such. It's the totality of normally important/influential/match winning types.

Replace Robbo with someone less prone to playing a blinder and scoring a couple of goals - and presto, you can field both Deyna and Streltsov.

It's a borderline absurd line of thinking, though, as it has little to do with compatibility: Elkjaer would work in that setup, I've no doubt about that. It's a question of how much he would shine.

How to make a non-typical star man shine sufficiently by surrounding him with players who must be fairly shiny, but not too shiny...or something like that.

Elkjaer was always a very important player for his team(s) - at times THE most important player, without being overly shiny or too much of a direct match winner. That sort of balance is much harder to re-create than the nigh-standard balance relevant to most of the star players in this draft - which one has to take into account when judging the effort.

Fair enough, in some ways Elkjaer's all round game and unique playing style does lead him to being rated on differing scales, as it's subjective to say the least. Definitely more nuanced to build around than say Netzer or Rivera for instance who offer a defined set of skills and playing style.
 
I don't see why we are talking Dream Team here when the setup looks nothing like it.

Rosato is no Koeman not on account of his passing but a high line being alien to him. Furthermore, the three midfielders are beung instructed to go deep, constantly in support.

The only way I see that panning out is a counter-attacking 6-3-, which I guess Netzer could look good in but it isn't exactly setting things up for him to shine.

I didn't like Inzaghi to begin with (is he meant to be a poaching Müller?) but it's the midfield that makes no sense to me. It's hard enough to buy Guardiola, but there's also Verratti, which makes it all quite confusing in terms of designated playmaker. And then there's Kante... I'd expect to see midfielders with a more expansive game, runners next to or around Netzer.

It's almost like the challenge was to play Rosato as a lone centrehalf and the team was built around giving him protection instead of making Netzer shine.
 
I didn't want to replicate any past teams or formations. I wanted to take a risk and try something new

sure, didnt say you had but it seems odd as you have a lot of things taken from that Cruyff team, biggest and most notable difference is Netzer in place of Bakero so we know its not a remake as they are nothing alike but in my opinion it would be more beneficial if you went with player similar to Bene on the left as well and a more complete striker then Pippo. So at the end you stay in the boundaries of the general philosophy but you create something new and yours.
 
Well it's quite disappointing to see the reception that Streltsov has received here, we were fairly excited to pick him and in some ways I was hoping for a Elkenigge Mak 2.

More than anything we were definitely hoping for more than 7, 9, 3 views for those Streltsov videos that harms made (am sure the majority of those came from me and harms :lol:). Esp since there is literally barely any footage of him available online (harms had to torrent those matches).

Will post the gifs on Streltsov that harms made which should be more convenient for viewing.



 

He makes a backheel assist between the legs of defender (the footage starts a little late)
versus Herrera's Inter at its peak

 
I don't see why we are talking Dream Team here when the setup looks nothing like it.

But it's a back 3 with Guardiola innit? Amidoingthisright.

If anything is unfair on Oaencha bringing the dream team into this discussion
 
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It's pretty close. I'm disappointed more people don't see what I do in my team but I appreciate I took a risk with the formation. The team is way more balanced than it appears. I explain in detail how the formation changes shape when I attack and defend.
 
Despite the amount of views being pretty evident of the lack of interest in Streltsov - here are bits from the interview to understand him better, his mindset and attitude (and the fact that he was always happy to let someone else shine). Can't be bothered to translate tons of text, but this should give you an idea:

(they are talking about "the pass" singular - but they mean passing game in general, and the assists, of course)

- Sometimes they say that Streltsov overuses the pass...

- I know that but I can't do anything about it. The coaching staff tells me that too. Even Valya (Valentin Ivanov) says it. But he himself was known for his passing game! Actually those who do usually score a lot. Ivanov, Beskov, Salnikov, Fedotov - each of them scored more than 100 goals. If you'd ask me, I would've counted the passes, not the goals. I'm not entirely serious, of course, but I would definitely count both. I also strongly prefer team goals over the individual ones.

- But what about the goal that you scored against Dinamo Kyiv in 1966? The one when you dribbled past 3 defenders and then tricked the goalkeeper? The one you received the award (best goal of the season) for.

- To be honest, it didn't give me as much pleasure as some of the other ones. Take the one against Chile. We scored four goals against them - and I say four, despite that the first went in off their defender. I managed to make a pass over the keeper's head to Banishevskyi - and if defender wouldn't have intervened, he would've scored it himself with ease. But the best one was the one that I scored from incredible pass by Byshovets. Believe me or not, but I'm glad that it was him. Many criticize him - and rightly so, if you ask me, for being too selfish and his inability to part with the ball at the right moment. He rarely does, many say that he is incapable of it. But with this pass, he proved that he can - or, at least, that he can learn how to do it.

(this comparison first appeared in my mind long time ago, but this interview, again, reminds me of something)



- ...like for example when you played very well against the Dinamo Tbilisi (even if Torpedo lost 1:0)
- What's the point, if we lost? You can't be satisfied about your performance if you lost. After the loss you can't even sleep without luminal
 
Despite the amount of views being pretty evident of the lack of interest in Streltsov...

Can't speak for anyone else, but I find him extremely interesting, for a number of reasons.

He isn't supposed to be the main point of interest here, though.

I can imagine two likely (negative, if you will) reactions to him in this particular match: 1) Don't know him well enough (and not arsed to learn more, at least not now) and 2) Too much of a star (could've been the central guy himself).

Deyna might get something similar for all I know.

Not exactly fair, as Elkjaer is - to repeat it - much harder to work with in this context than either of those two would've been (as the designated star man).

The positive reaction would be: Yes, buying the later version of Streltsov 100% as someone who would simply «facilitate» perfectly without taking anything away from Elkjaer's game. Which is plausible enough, but not exactly an obvious thing to sell (takes detailed knowledge of the player).
 
Can't speak for anyone else, but I find him extremely interesting, for a number of reasons.

He isn't supposed to be the main point of interest here, though.

I can imagine two likely (negative, if you will) reactions to him in this particular match: 1) Don't know him well enough (and not arsed to learn more, at least not now) and 2) Too much of a star (could've been the central guy himself).

Deyna might get something similar for all I know.

Not exactly fair, as Elkjaer is - to repeat it - much harder to work with in this context than either of those two would've been (as the designated star man).

The positive reaction would be: Yes, buying the later version of Streltsov 100% as someone who would simply «facilitate» perfectly without taking anything away from Elkjaer's game. Which is plausible enough, but not exactly an obvious thing to sell (takes detailed knowledge of the player).
Well, again, to talk only about Elkjaer for the whole draft would be boring - that's why we decided to bring in a few interesting players to work with. Yet, his relentless mentality will much probably steal the headlines ahead of Streltsov more sophisticated game (with Robson, the only man that can challenge him for a sheer drive, having his job in midfield to think about, first and foremost)...

But, really, what I see here the most isn't even the lack of knowledge of Streltsov - but the ridiculous underappreciation of Elkjaer. The man was a star in that Danish team that featured Michael Laudrup (fecking Laudrup!), Simonsen, Morton and Jesper Olsens, Søren Lerby... As much as I love Streltsov, or rate Deyna, Michael Laudrup is a bigger name. The man played in Serie A and was able to outshine (or shine as brightly, at least for a season) - yes, not as a teammate, but as a competitor, Platini, Zico, Falcao, Scirea etc.
 
But, really, what I see here the most isn't even the lack of knowledge of Streltsov - but the ridiculous underappreciation of Elkjaer.

The thing for me is that even your and joga's posts seem to highlight Streltsov more than Elkjaer. I mean you posted dozens of gifs and match videos of Streltsov instead of Elkjaer mate! ;)

I feel I've learned a lot more about Streltsov as a player in this thread than Elkjaer for example.
 
The positive reaction would be: Yes, buying the later version of Streltsov 100% as someone who would simply «facilitate» perfectly without taking anything away from Elkjaer's game. Which is plausible enough, but not exactly an obvious thing to sell (takes detailed knowledge of the player).

Well we've (more like harms) done our best to portray Strelstov and his playing style (veering more towards Hidegkuti than a Eusébio/Pele) and how he'd fit into out set-up. Naturally most won't have detailed knowledge of certain players, like the abovementioned Streltsov, but that's the very point of these drafts - trying to learn more about players and the history of the game and what not.

The main argument here seems to be others (or the sum totality of their influence) overshadowing Elkjaer here.

To expand on harms's post.

In some ways I get where they are coming from as the likes of Robson, Deyna and Streltsov were great players themselves and matchwinners in their own right.

However in some ways it does highlight the beauty of Elkjaer that he doesn't need the centre of the stage or the limelight exclusively to shine. He could shine, whilst others were shining and doing their things too (in some ways you can say them excelling was necessary to him shining and vice versa - very much a mutually beneficial relationship). A drastic example would be Messi shining for Barca but Xavi needing to be at his best for the very machinery to function, same could be said for Elkjaer and his teammates for instance.

Take the Danish Dynamites for instance, Lerby was asserting his dominance in the midfield, making those lung bursting forays forward (against Spain in the Euros 84 or Uruguay in 86 etc) the midfield, making those crunching tackles and being a monumental figure in the midfield who provided all the drive and direction. Without doubt amongst the best B2B midfielders of that era and he outshone Matthaus during their time at Bayern.

Laudrup was a magical player who was labelled the heir to Platini and was nothing short of phenomenal for the Danish, orchestrating attacks, weaving past players for fun and creating chance after chance whilst getting on the scoresheet himself.

Take Morten Olsen for instance, captain of the Danish Dynamites, one of the best if not the best liberos around during the mid eighties and someone who was critical to setting the tune for Denmark from the back.

Jesper Olsen who provided the trickery from the flanks and was one of the more exciting wingers around, Arnesen who provided a great and well-rounded threat from midfield etc.

All fantastic players and Denmark was one of the best sides overall who played exciting football to boot too, yet it was Elkjaer who was the crown jewel of them all, finishing 3rd, 2nd and 4th in the Ballon d'Or, whilst winning the bronze ball in the World Cup ahead of such illustrious teammates, being the best player for Denmark in 1984 and 1986. It's very much testament to his quality that he outshone these players but at the same time didn't get in the way of them shining themselves. Or take Hellas Verona for instance, where Briegel won the German Footballer of the Year, Garella who commanded the best defense in the water-tight Serie A and Galderisi and Briegel who actually managed to outscore Elkjaer in their victorious Serie A campaign, but there is no doubt whatsoever as to who the talisman was in that side and Elkjaer's sheer influence couldn't have been more apparent (like that goal against Scirea's Juventus playing a significant role on their march to the title)

There are times when you have a Maradona/Platini or say Rivera in this draft where they tend to require the centre stage/limelight or at the very least a significant portion of it and at times the 'supporting cast' has to sacrifice some facets of their game for the 'main man' to shine, but that isn't the case here at all imo. Let's not forget the selfless nature of the players accompanying Elkjaer here too. Robson was the engine for United and England but he provided the ideal base for his forwards to shine, never once did he impede on the likes of Whiteside, Beardsley, Hoddle and the likes. In fact they've all only sung praises about his selfness nature and ability to inspire others and allowing them to play their games. Robson was more likely to put a forward through on goal, than score a 30 yard scorcher, more likely to flick one on at the near post than score a header and so on and so forth. Simply put, he wasn't Schtevie G or Lampard even for that matter, where their goalscoring impact and the game revolving around them in the final third was a significant feature of their respective sides. Not the case with Robson at all who was plain and simple a talismanic midfield general. Likewise Deyna, whose creative ingenuity allowed the likes of Szarmach and Lato to lap up the Golden and Silver Boots in the World Cup and gave them (Gadocha too) the perfect foundation to thrive. I don't think we need to go into depth about Streltsov anymore :p.

Simply put, Robson can be having the game of his life here, scoring a scorcher, playing those fantastic one-twos, bursting forward to get on the end of a cross; Streltsov could be having a great game, having 2 quirky back-heeled assists to his name and being a nuisance for the opposition with his thorny movement off the ball and Deyna could be orchestrating play majestically just the way he does but at the end of the day, you just know Elkjaer would be shining just as much as them if not more, regardless of whether he ends up on the score-sheet or not. In some ways, it highlights the unique nature of Elkjaer's game as a whole.
 
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The thing for me is that even your and joga's posts seem to highlight Streltsov more than Elkjaer. I mean you posted dozens of gifs and match videos of Streltsov instead of Elkjaer mate! ;)

I feel I've learned a lot more about Streltsov as a player in this thread than Elkjaer for example.

Well naturally as you probably wouldn't have known much or anything about Streltsov to start with (just like me and most other posters on here), and given the nature of discussions which has gone on here (with all the shining and what not).

Or say the Dream team and Rosato for that matter. ;)
 
The thing for me is that even your and joga's posts seem to highlight Streltsov more than Elkjaer. I mean you posted dozens of gifs and match videos of Streltsov instead of Elkjaer mate! ;)

I feel I've learned a lot more about Streltsov as a player in this thread than Elkjaer for example.
Because Elkjaer is known much better than Streltsov (whose role caused some confusion). Although - apparently not good enough, we definitely misjudged that.
 
@harms the more I read and watch about Streltsov I feel you should've done with the former version of him - pretty much a lot like Elkjaer - two direct, pacy forwards in a counter attacking set up who are very technical and direct.

The latter version of Streltsov along with Deyna as well seems a bit off to me in this set up. I fully understand the use of Deyna or perhaps Streltsov behind Elkjaer to pull the strings but having both of them there means Elkjaer playing a bit of a secondary role running into channels and opening space, while not being the star man and focal point of the attack. Both Streltsov and Deyna IMO would have better game here. In the national team it was always Laudrup who got the most attention, while at Verona in their title winning season he got the more limelight I thought while having a very good dynamic partnership with Galderisi who was more of a target man himself.

It's a pity currently as I love your midfield and defence but the crucial part - the attack seems to be a bit off to me.

On the other side of the park I like Oaencha's attack - one wide winger in Giggs and cutting inside forward in Bene, while Inzaghi keeping the defence on their toes. The midfield also looks good to me with Verratti and Kante protecting the back 3 with Guardiola starting the attacks from deep.

Think the defence is underwhelming to be fair I'd have gone with RCB and LCB here for better balance as someone already said it and also maybe a sweeper type instead of Rosato.
 
Now Streltsov was definitely the decision which required the most brainstorming and I've already mentioned this before. I believed him too be too individualistic and taking away too much from Elkjaer as I believed they overlapped significantly. Considered him more of an individualistic runner (more of the Pele/Eusebio mould than a facilitative Bergkamp mould). Now @harms set me straight and those videos are the best thing to exhibit his selfless playing style and how he wasn't exactly a dribbler but more or a creative presence who was an excellent goalscorer in equal measures.
I don't really have any issues with the attacking trident - it would work well. But I cannot fully agree that those videos show him to have a "selfless playing style". There are a few examples of that clearly not being the case.

Here he has two simple and better positioned passing options on. But with his back to goal and tightly marked, he decides to do the individualistic thing by turning his man and playing a challenging long ball. Now he does it well because he is a quality player, but it's not the mark of a selfless playing style when his two teammates next to him end up like a pair of spare pricks.



Both cases here he has good and simple options available, but goes for the more direct approach.



The boy was quality (excellent work on the GIFs) and the front three works well, so it's not a big issue, but I don't really relate to that idea of selflessness there.
 
There are certain aspects to your game that I'm only realizing now, @Oaencha

Style
Free flowing, creative, attacking football. Sit deep and compact when defending, ready to spring a fast counter attack.
So, will it be more attacking in possession or counter-attacking?

Rosato, Guardiola and Kante will stay back while the team is attacking and create a solid core in the event of losing possession

I missed that. Certainly makes more sense now. But then..

Formation
Possession: 3-6-1
Defending: 6-3-1
Attacking: 3-4-3

.. will the three at the back in possession be different from the three at the back during attack?

If possible, show the formation in attacking 3-4-3. Will it be something like this?

Giggs-Inzaghi-Bene
Alaba-Verratti-Netzer-Reuter
Guardiola-Kante
Rosato
 
The latter version of Streltsov along with Deyna as well seems a bit off to me in this set up. I fully understand the use of Deyna or perhaps Streltsov behind Elkjaer to pull the strings but having both of them there means Elkjaer playing a bit of a secondary role running into channels and opening space, while not being the star man and focal point of the attack. Both Streltsov and Deyna IMO would have better game here. In the national team it was always Laudrup who got the most attention, while at Verona in their title winning season he got the more limelight I thought while having a very good dynamic partnership with Galderisi who was more of a target man himself.
Have you seen Streltsov's compilations? Because I'm a bit confused if you did.
Streltsov, even in his later incarnation, was very dynamic, often worked the outside left channel and also played as a the target man with his back towards the goal for every long ball sent forward - to then involve Chislenko, Byshovets etc. (so when we compare this to Galderisi/Elkjaer you have exactly that, just much better).

And Elkjaer's game was all about running into channels. Not because he was secondary player - because he was at his best when doing so. And with Streltsov playing as a second fiddle, as a point of reference upfront with amazing link up game, it's Elkjaer who is most likely to get on the scoresheet.

It's the opposite - the younger version of Streltsov would've been THE star man here, actually, as he was more lethal and quite similar in his game - and Elkjaer would've play facilitatory role in that case, creating the space for him, which we didn't want to happen.

Re: Laudrup getting the most attention - well, it was Elkjaer who won the Bronze ball in the 1986 World Cup (and got into the TotT), despite his side crashing out in the 1/8, and also finished 3rd, 2nd and 4th in 1984-1986 Ballon D'Or list, outperforming Laudrup in all three, with Laudrup finishing 4th (2 places behind) in 1985
 
I don't really have any issues with the attacking trident - it would work well.

Cheers.

There are a few examples of that clearly not being the case.

Here he has two simple and better positioned passing options on. But with his back to goal and tightly marked, he decides to do the individualistic thing by turning his man and playing a challenging long ball. Now he does it well because he is a quality player, but it's not the mark of a selfless playing style when his two teammates next to him end up like a pair of spare pricks.

Well of course it's only the mark of a great player imo, as opposed to a passive one always going for the safe option or to phrase it better the straight-forward/most apparent option. Weighing up the options and the risks against the potential benefits before executing their move. Naturally at times they will try something unpredictable to mix things up and more often than not it'll click or in some instances maybe not. It's no surprise that he manages to pull off the first pass and forces a good save out of the goalie in the next. Maybe it might not have worked in another instance.

For example, Hidegkuti going for a lobbed pass to Puskas when the apparent pass would have been a simple square one to Budai or say Laudrup fooling everyone with a risky reverse pass when everyone thinks he is going to make a simple layoff. Would I call them selfless players? Definitely.
 
Here he has two simple and better positioned passing options on. But with his back to goal and tightly marked, he decides to do the individualistic thing by turning his man and playing a challenging long ball. Now he does it well because he is a quality player, but it's not the mark of a selfless playing style when his two teammates next to him end up like a pair of spare pricks.
Would you call Bergkamp selfish, for example? He did all his aesthetically pleasing tricks because it was the most pragmatic and efficient way to do what the team needed. Same with

Streltsov:
Have you noticed how often you can predict player's actions beforehand while watching the game? Now he's going to pass to the right, now he'll dribble, he'll make a run or he'll stop. But sometimes - and rarely - you'll see something unexpected. And this is the real football!

Where is the art in this? Let's say that I have the ball. I see that on the left there is a player getting in a good position for an opening while on the right I have a completely unmarked partner. And everyone expects me to make a pass to the right. The defenders expect that, and I myself want to do it. I'm making it look like that's what I'm doing... a little pause, and I make a pass to the left. It's just an example - when I have the ball, I have to access many things - where the defender is going to move, which leg is my partner is going to use while receiving the ball, how my partners are positioned in front of the goal, are there ways to continue the combination... In every situation there are many factors, and all this information you need to process in a second.

Plus I'm not sure - since you're thanking us for the gifs, have you seen the match compilations? I apologize for the question, it's just the view count on youtube is depressingly evident that almost no one did. Because that's where you'll see the selfless Streltsov, even though I haven't included all of his off the ball movement, just some to make a point (mostly in his game against France).
 
Well it's quite disappointing to see the reception that Streltsov has received here, we were fairly excited to pick him and in some ways I was hoping for a Elkenigge Mak 2.

More than anything we were definitely hoping for more than 7, 9, 3 views for those Streltsov videos that harms made (am sure the majority of those came from me and harms :lol:). Esp since there is literally barely any footage of him available online (harms had to torrent those matches).

Will post the gifs on Streltsov that harms made which should be more convenient for viewing.





It's pretty close. I'm disappointed more people don't see what I do in my team but I appreciate I took a risk with the formation. The team is way more balanced than it appears. I explain in detail how the formation changes shape when I attack and defend.

No, just disappointed by the discussion.

:(
 
Have you seen Streltsov's compilations? Because I'm a bit confused if you did.
Streltsov, even in his later incarnation, was very dynamic, often worked the outside left channel and also played as a the target man with his back towards the goal for every long ball sent forward - to then involve Chislenko, Byshovets etc. (so when we compare this to Galderisi/Elkjaer you have exactly that, just much better).

And Elkjaer's game was all about running into channels. Not because he was secondary player - because he was at his best when doing so. And with Streltsov playing as a second fiddle, as a point of reference upfront with amazing link up game, it's Elkjaer who is most likely to get on the scoresheet.

It's the opposite - the younger version of Streltsov would've been THE star man here, actually, as he was more lethal and quite similar in his game - and Elkjaer would've play facilitatory role in that case, creating the space for him, which we didn't want to happen.

Re: Laudrup getting the most attention - well, it was Elkjaer who won the Bronze ball in the 1986 World Cup (and got into the TotT), despite his side crashing out in the 1/8, and also finished 3rd, 2nd and 4th in 1984-1986 Ballon D'Or list, outperforming Laudrup in all three, with Laudrup finishing 4th (2 places behind) in 1985

Yeah I've saw the ones in the main thread and that's why I wondered how was he in his teens. It must be the more nonchalant way he moves on the pitch then, but seems to me that his style was more of a Bergkamp or later Ibra rather than the dynamic target striker you are describing.

Take the France game for example that you've put up, he seems to always come from deep, drop left but even drop in his own half, then start the attack or press the opponent to get the ball back, or just knock the ball around. He seems to love to get involved in the build up, but with Deyna already in the team I'd rather have one of them pulling the strings in the attacking third and creating for Elkjaer or another direct forward who roams around like Stoichkov, Sosa, Signori, etc..

I'd certainly buy this set up if the other attacking player in your set up wasn't Deyna. As it stands you have 1 runner in this counter attacking set up in Elkjaer and two more of a sulky, link up players who also distribute the ball and create the openings rather than use them.

I agree that Elkjaer game was about finding space and running into channels, but in this set up he's the sole runner who at the end IMO would be the one with his back to the goal rather than coming from deep as you already have Deyna and Streltsov doing just that from what I've saw.

To me Streltsov in those games looks like the focal point up front and he either drags the defenders/midfielders to create space or is the main creative outlet in the attacking third and when in position to receive the ball his teammates usually tried to find him first. I don't see him being an optimal target striker to chase the long balls or bring the ball down thus bringing others into play. A bit like asking Bergkamp to do so. Not that he cannot be playing up top, but from the couple of compilations I think his strength in his later days lies somewhere else.

In essense:

-----LWF/Target Man----Elkjaer
---------------Streltsov---------

or

---Streltsov in the LWF/LCF role------Elkjaer
-----------Kaka type of #10----------------

in a counter attacking set up.

I'd buy either of those but not with Deyna as #10.
 
I don't really have any issues with the attacking trident - it would work well. But I cannot fully agree that those videos show him to have a "selfless playing style". There are a few examples of that clearly not being the case.
.

If you watch the Youtube videos, you would see he's a collective support striker.
 
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I'd certainly buy this set up if the other attacking player in your set up wasn't Deyna. As it stands you have 1 runner in this counter attacking set up in Elkjaer and two more of a sulky, link up players who also distribute the ball and create the openings rather than use them.
Well, it's my fault for not including more of his off the ball runs then, it's always hard to project what people are seeing when you had to cut something out. (But he definitely isn't suited for a #10 role)
 
Well it's quite disappointing to see the reception that Streltsov has received here, we were fairly excited to pick him and in some ways I was hoping for a Elkenigge Mak 2.

More than anything we were definitely hoping for more than 7, 9, 3 views for those Streltsov videos that harms made (am sure the majority of those came from me and harms :lol:). Esp since there is literally barely any footage of him available online (harms had to torrent those matches).

Will post the gifs on Streltsov that harms made which should be more convenient for viewing.





I watched the main link in OP. The one like is mine ;)

Can I ask why you guys decided on Elkjaer over Streltsov or Deyna? Not really a problem but the latter are the typical key players, especially Deyna in a trequartista role.
 
Well of course it's only the mark of a great player imo, as opposed to a passive one always going for the safe option or to phrase it better the straight-forward/most apparent option. Weighing up the options and the risks against the potential benefits before executing their move. Naturally at times they will try something unpredictable to mix things up and more often than not it'll click or in some instances maybe not. It's no surprise that he manages to pull off the first pass and forces a good save out of the goalie in the next. Maybe it might not have worked in another instance.
You can judge a lot based on the decisions players take when they have multiple options around them and where they sit on the individual/collective spectrum. It's not just about the unpredictable, because all creatives have that in their locker.
Plus I'm not sure - since you're thanking us for the gifs, have you seen the match compilations? I apologize for the question, it's just the view count on youtube is depressingly evident that almost no one did. Because that's where you'll see the selfless Streltsov, even though I haven't included all of his off the ball movement, just some to make a point (mostly in his game against France).
Yeah, thanks for highlighting. He's world class against Austria. I don't know the back story as comprehensively as you do, but you can certainly how tell he has adapted his game to compensate for reduced physical prowess. There are a few examples where you can tell that instinctively he wants to do more and starts off on those runs, but equally plenty of situations where he opted for the lay-off when a younger and more explosive version would have gone solo.
 
Well, it's my fault for not including more of his off the ball runs then, it's always hard to project what people are seeing when you had to cut something out. (But he definitely isn't suited for a #10 role)

Aye maybe that's the reason as I don't see the off the ball movement of the target striker. On counter he looks like the furthest man forward(at times, but more often than not he seems to be in a deeper zone) when the build up starts, but then again he looks for the ball and then tries to get others into play or shoot on goal from outside the box. Most runs starts when he gets the ball, rather than opening the space.

For example:



0:35 keeps position then nudges the ball directly to oncoming wide forward after 1-2(Chislenko I think.)
1:25 same position goes deep to get to the ball but then dispossessed.
2:00 presses near the half way line.
2:40 - one two with Chislenko around 10-15 yards from the box.
2:50 - gets the ball, weaves and keeps possession and looks to change the direction of the attack.
3:00 - probably the best example where he goes on a run off the ball to the left.
3:45 - not sure if he looks for space or occupies the position on the left because most of the time he drops deep to receive the ball.
4:20 same as 2:50 but distributes it to the left.
5:35 receives the ball deep tries to distribute it on the right but fails.
5:40 till 6:00 he gets the ball deep and both times tries to go on a run (second time more successful) when he misses 1 on 1 with the keeper.
6:40 attack on the right and he occupies the position just outside the box with two other forwards waiting for the cross inside it.
7:42 presses deep and wins the ball back, goes on a quick one two then crosses low which leads to the goal.
9:10 quick one two with Byshovets near the left midfield zone close to the touchline.

and so on.

So yeah all things considered to me it looks like a more wideish #10 role rather than a free roaming target man, but then again it's my dissection of the videos so far.
 
It's pretty close. I'm disappointed more people don't see what I do in my team but I appreciate I took a risk with the formation. The team is way more balanced than it appears. I explain in detail how the formation changes shape when I attack and defend.

I also appreciate it.

In theory, it could work. As you know, modern coaches aren't so creative when it comes to defending because it would require a huge tactical work. Let's say it would have been more easy to sell it if Verratti was a credible defender for instance and God knows I'm a fan of him.

Now, your defensive strategy shouldn't really matter here as the spirit of this draft should be to make you central player happy (even at any cost I'd add).
 
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Because Elkjaer is known much better than Streltsov (whose role caused some confusion). Although - apparently not good enough, we definitely misjudged that.

Maybe more known than Streltsov but for me he is easily one of the 2-3 star players I know the least about. Definitely i dont know the nuances of his play style well enough to not need gifs and videos. For instance I still dont quite see why you feel this tactics maximizes Elkjaers qualities better than say Verona's tactic where he seemed to be more the star man. Some gifs of Elkjaer would help there , for me at least
 
I also appreciate it.

In theory, it could work. As you know, modern coaches aren't so creative when it comes to defending because it would require a huge tactical work. Let's say it would have been more easy to sell if Verratti was a credible defender for instance and God knows I'm a fan of him.

Now, your defensive strategy shouldn't really matter here as the spirit of this draft should be to make you central player happy (even at any cost I'd add).

Disagree with this. You still have to create a balanced and functional side. Whilst Alaba I can see plugging in somehow in a LB/LCB role Reuter in the same role on the other flank is a bit off. I don't see him doing well in the defensive stage(part of the 6 men back) which is also crucial in the counter attacking set up and ceding pressure.

Let me put it this way, a set up like this cries for Reiziger and Koeman pairing at the back rather than Rosato and Reuter.

The other issue is probably not having a DM dropping into CB ala Masch, Busquets, Popescu instead of Guardiola when he has Rosato at the back. I really like the rest of the team (midfield and attack) but the defence doesn't look optimal for me.