Harms/Joga vs Oaencha - Tactical Draft

Who created a better environment for their star player to shine?


  • Total voters
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  • Poll closed .
I was mocked because I've written that Giggs/Cantona would be 'equivalent' to Pirès/Cantona.

But you do prefer to compare Thomas Muller with Mazzola and Giresse with Elkjaer :lol:
 
A few people have mentioned that my team is defensively suspect. When defending the team will look like this. Six players who are all good at tackling.

-------------- Preud'homme -------------

Reuter ---------- Rosato ---------- Alaba

---- Kante ----- Guardiola --- Verratti

I only have one real problem with this. And that is the 2 strikers can go and play on Rosa to. Any little flicks round the corner from a ball into feet bypasses the 3 midfielders in front. If one of them was actually capable of playing in defence ala Mascherano then you could have them dropping back to make a back 4 when needed. Without that though it still seems quite suspect.
 
A few people have mentioned that my team is defensively suspect. When defending the team will look like this. Six players who are all good at tackling.

-------------- Preud'homme -------------

Reuter ---------- Rosato ---------- Alaba

---- Kante ----- Guardiola --- Verratti

Rosato is a human being so he needs a back-up/support to keep a CF under control during 90 minutes.
Who would be the back-up? Guardiola or Reuter if Alaba has to follow a winger?
 
The way I see it, a more energetic player than Verratti would have been better in @Oaencha 's team. It's not a bad choice by any means (I like the bit about him being the outlet playmaker) but maybe someone like Edgar Davids would bring more to that team?

As of now the defensive transitions look slightly weak which limits the ball-winning ability and, in turn, Netzer's chance to get on the ball. Yes, I just linked having a good defence to building a team around an attacking player :D

EDIT: I see other posters have voiced similar concerns. So, my specific question is, will Verratti be playing more alongside Guardiola or Netzer?
 
Rosato is a human being so he needs a back-up/support to keep a CF under control during 90 minutes.
Who would be the back-up? Guardiola or Reuter if Alaba has to follow a winger?
Fair point but look at the team that won 4 La Liga in a row, and 2 CL finals, winning one.

eZQeAXb.png
 
That's what we have gone for. :lol:

For us the objective was to get him as the clear cut alpha in the team, the one who would be in charge of the attack, more than replicating his role in the sides he played for. Though of course that would be discussed more tomorrow in our game.

As you know, Giresse was the French player of the Year 3 times (82, 83 and 87) and the super 'star' of Bordeaux...
 
Fair point but look at the team that won 4 La Liga in a row, and 2 CL finals, winning one.

eZQeAXb.png

Fair point but his tactical system is not strictly similar: for instance Reuter is described as a RB, not as a RCB
 
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Rosato is a human being so he needs a back-up/support to keep a CF under control during 90 minutes.
Who would be the back-up? Guardiola or Reuter if Alaba has to follow a winger?
I understand what you're saying but I mention this in my write up:

Guardiola, Kante and Verratti will drop deep, providing Rosato with support. All three are fantastic tacklers and they will create a wall in front of the penalty area. Kante will press the opposition hard and attempt to win the ball back as quickly as possible. Guardiola and Verratti will stay composed and wait for the right time to tackle. If the opposition manage to break through, Rosato will charge in and clear the ball by any means necessary. Reuter and Alaba will revert to full backs and block any attacks down the wings.

Guardiola and Kante will cover Rosato at all times. Verratti will either drop back and support the others when defending or push up and support Netzer when attacking. Reuter and Alaba have serious speed/stamina and can easily get back in time to defend.
 
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As you know, Giresse was the French player of the Year 3 times (82, 83 and 87) and the super 'star' of Bordeaux...

Aye that's something which always intrigued me. His goalscoring records for Bordeaux and France couldn't be any more drastically different. Must have been a different version for Bordeaux, without Platini.
 
Fair point but look at the team that won 4 La Liga in a row, and 2 CL finals, winning one.

eZQeAXb.png
Pretty much everything in Cruyff's Dream team is significantly different - apart from Guardiola that is. Can you imagine Rosato playing Koeman's role? Kante excelling in that extremely ball-playing ideology? More so, Oaencha haven't said anything about his philosophy being connected to Cruyff's. Having the like of Inzaghi up front also require a different defensive system. Et cetera et cetera. Not saying that it's bad, but in the same time posting Barca's formation should be the answer to questions about Oaencha's team
 
Pretty much everything in Cruyff's Dream team is significantly different - apart from Guardiola that is. Can you imagine Rosato playing Koeman's role? Kante excelling in that extremely ball-playing ideology? More so, Oaencha haven't said anything about his philosophy being connected to Cruyff's. Having the like of Inzaghi up front also require a different defensive system. Et cetera et cetera. Not saying that it's bad, but in the same time posting Barca's formation should be the answer to questions about Oaencha's team
It's what came to mind instantly, it's not a remake in terms of style of play but since the discussion was around his defense, I thought it was a decent analogy there. I don't know much about Rosato but from whatever I've seen he seems a better 'defender' than Koeman, who was known more for his ability on the ball, though his defense is rather underrated. What interested me more was that Alaba/Reuter are fantastic upgrades on Sergi/Ferrer and perfectly fit into what Cruyff demanded of his sidebacks. Kante of course isn't great on the ball but defensively him and Verratti provide the engine and stamina that the side midfielders in that formation provided. So from a defensive standpoint, it seems fine to me if we consider that the dream team was able to win all those accolades playing a similar defensive setup which in parts has been upgraded here.

Also not sure why their ability against your attack is being discussed (the whole they will be suspect against a strike partnership etc), isn't this being judged based on who did a better job with his star player and not on who will win the game?
 
1992 European Cup Final vs Sampdoria
That first picture doesn't seem accurate, and if you listen to Cruyff's description, he had 'wingers' in that position, or what can be called as an attacking fullback. Reuter is a better defender than Ferrer in any case, so in terms of defense, it should not be an issue.
 
It's what came to mind instantly, it's not a remake in terms of style of play but since the discussion was around his defense, I thought it was a decent analogy there. I don't know much about Rosato but from whatever I've seen he seems a better 'defender' than Koeman, who was known more for his ability on the ball, though his defense is rather underrated. What interested me more was that Alaba/Reuter are fantastic upgrades on Sergi/Ferrer and perfectly fit into what Cruyff demanded of his sidebacks. Kante of course isn't great on the ball but defensively him and Verratti provide the engine and stamina that the side midfielders in that formation provided. So from a defensive standpoint, it seems fine to me if we consider that the dream team was able to win all those accolades playing a similar defensive setup which in parts has been upgraded here.

Also not sure why their ability against your attack is being discussed (the whole they will be suspect against a strike partnership etc), isn't this being judged based on who did a better job with his star player and not on who will win the game?

I may have started the struggle against the 2 strikers thing, however I did say that I wasn't focusing on that.
 
The way I see it, a more energetic player than Verratti would have been better in @Oaencha 's team. It's not a bad choice by any means (I like the bit about him being the outlet playmaker) but maybe someone like Edgar Davids would bring more to that team?

As of now the defensive transitions look slightly weak which limits the ball-winning ability and, in turn, Netzer's chance to get on the ball. Yes, I just linked having a good defence to building a team around an attacking player :D

EDIT: I see other posters have voiced similar concerns. So, my specific question is, will Verratti be playing more alongside Guardiola or Netzer?

1. Edgar Davids couldn't be picked (blocked)
2. I fully disagree here: Guardiola/Verratti are known for their great defensive transitions and Kanté for his ball-winning ability.
3. Verratti is a central midfielder at his best: so between the #6 Guardiola and Netzer. The trio would communicate very well.
 
Also not sure why their ability against your attack is being discussed (the whole they will be suspect against a strike partnership etc), isn't this being judged based on who did a better job with his star player and not on who will win the game?
Who is discussing it? I certainly don't.

Regarding Koeman/Rosato etc - Rosato specifically lacks Koeman's playmaking qualities that made him so important for Cruyff's Barca. You put any conventional center back there, and you lose the balance. You put Inzaghi up front, you lose the balance. You put Kante in midfield, you lose the balance. There is a reason why no one (bar, maybe, Guardiola and Bielsa) had successfully replicated Cruyff's radical ideas. Again, I'm not saying that Oaencha's side is unbalanced - but if it tries to play like the Dream team (which he never stated that it will), it will be.
 
1. Edgar Davids couldn't be picked (blocked)
2. I fully disagree here: Guardiola/Verratti are known for their great defensive transitions and Kanté for his ball-winning ability.
3. Verratti is a central midfielder at his best: so between the #6 Guardiola and Netzer. The trio would communicate very well.

Davids was meant more as an example; I knew (or had assumed) he was blocked.

It's more about the type of defensive transition needed on Verratti's side. Kante perfectly suits the bill and I would have preferred a similar player on Verratti's side to cover the potentially massive hole in defence behind him.

Either that or have one defensive full-back.
 
Who is discussing it? I certainly don't.

Regarding Koeman/Rosato etc - Rosato specifically lacks Koeman's playmaking qualities that made him so important for Cruyff's Barca. You put any conventional center back there, and you lose the balance. You put Inzaghi up front, you lose the balance. You put Kante in midfield, you lose the balance. There is a reason why no one (bar, maybe, Guardiola and Bielsa) had successfully replicated Cruyff's radical ideas. Again, I'm not saying that Oaencha's side is unbalanced - but if it tries to play like the Dream team (which he never stated that it will), it will be.
I specifically wrote the defensive side of the game. Was Rosato a worse 'defender' than Koeman? If not, then in terms of defense, they shouldn't be worse than that Dream team. Inzaghi has sweet feckall to do with defense, as well, as do Kante's on the ball skills. Overall, this team looks better defensively than the Dream Team, which was the discussion there. If they won all that with that defense, and made it work, then so would this lot.
 
I specifically wrote the defensive side of the game. Was Rosato a worse 'defender' than Koeman? If not, then in terms of defense, they shouldn't be worse than that Dream team. Inzaghi has sweet feckall to do with defense, as well, as do Kante's on the ball skills. Overall, this team looks better defensively than the Dream Team, which was the discussion there. If they won all that with that defense, and made it work, then so would this lot.
No, because the passing game in Cruyff's tactics IS the defending (like he says in the video you posted, "I'm much more defensive than you think"). Same with Guardiola. You can't put Picchi instead of Koeman and say that it's an upgrade defensively - because it destroys the whole system on which Dream Team's defending was based on.

Alright, this discussion is going places that I don't want to go - and it isn't relevant to Oaencha's team anyway, so I rest my case.
 
It's more interesting to speak about your offensive strategy here
 
No, because the passing game in Cruyff's tactics IS the defending
What? I've never heard that about the dream team. They aren't Pep's Barca who depended on keeping possession as a defensive tactic.

The bigger point was that there is a very successful precedent on having a similar defensive shape with similar players in similar roles.
 
Good effort by both sides.

Maybe @Oaencha can explain the Inzaghi choice as that seems an odd choice to get the most out Netzer?
 
@Joga Bonito

More than 15 000 views for your Netzer compilation: a deserved recognition :)
I haven't used it in the International Peak Draft because it wasn't (enough) focused on Germany 1972 :-(
 
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Also if the star players werent revealed I definitely would have guessed Deyna to be harms and joga star man as the side just feels more built arou Deyna than anything
 
Also if the star players werent revealed I definitely would have guessed Deyna to be harms and joga star man as the side just feels more built arou Deyna than anything

You say that because Deyna is in the middle of the picture
 
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Also if the star players werent revealed I definitely would have guessed Deyna to be harms and joga star man as the side just feels more built arou Deyna than anything
The number 10 was the first player on our minds, especially after you blocked Bochini who we wanted to use there - because Elkjaer's movement requires top notch service, and only few in the pool had the tools to provide it. Attacking box-to-box, capable of bursting forward into the space that was opened by Elkjaer's movement - second. Again, if we continue with the direct comparisons, that would be Laudrup and Lerby (or Briegel).

Without that playmaker Elkjaer would've lost a lot, much more that he would've gained by adding a less notable player in the hole. Anyway, we've built the side that, in our opinion, maximizes the influence that Elkjaer can impose on the game and the side effects (that this side is good enough on its own and it well-suited not only for him, but also for all other players) aren't important. If anything, it's more like punishing for building a side that is too good for him, which is absurd.
 
nothing wrong with harms/joga team in my opinion, with strikers and wingers as central players there will always be a dominant creative figure in the team and it should be because that striker/winger(in this case Elkjaer) wouldnt be the same without that influence as harms said.
The main objective was that you guys as managers get the best out of central players and that they have the main role in the team not support one as its often the case in drafts with that level of players.
Having the main role doesnt necessarily means there wont be another player in the main role as well. Football is way to complex to just have one guy dictating the game in every bloody segment of the game. Were Kaka or Xavi support players just because they had Pirlo and Messi in their team? Of course not. Both had main, crucial roles in the team.
 
@Oaencha

I like the idea a lot. My main concern is Reuter as he's really an attacking full-back. I'd prefer someone more similar to Ivanovic for balance. The idea of having three playmakers is quite a good one although a less dominant DLP such as Carrick would have prevented an potential overlap between Guardiola and Netzer - the latter dropped very deep on occasions.

1. Reuter was a versatile defender who was also capable to play as a RCB with his NT
2. I don't believe in a clash of roles between Guardiola and Netzer: Guardiola was a collective player capable to play simply and efficiently
3. If he drops (and he likes to do it on occasions), Kanté & Verratti are not really the players who will take over offensively. Ideally, 4 players should be able to exploit offensively the passing skills of Netzer
 
The number 10 was the first player on our minds, especially after you blocked Bochini who we wanted to use there - because Elkjaer's movement requires top notch service, and only few in the pool had the tools to provide it. Attacking box-to-box, capable of bursting forward into the space that was opened by Elkjaer's movement - second. Again, if we continue with the direct comparisons, that would be Laudrup and Lerby (or Briegel).

Without that playmaker Elkjaer would've lost a lot, much more that he would've gained by adding a less notable player in the hole. Anyway, we've built the side that, in our opinion, maximizes the influence that Elkjaer can impose on the game and the side effects (that this side is good enough on its own and it well-suited not only for him, but also for all other players) aren't important. If anything, it's more like punishing for building a side that is too good for him, which is absurd.

I will try to explain why your tactic just feels a little 'off' to me. With Oaencha what feels off is clear, its just the Inzaghi-Netzer pairing seems off. But with your tactic its more subtle (and its not something basic like "Deyna is central" or " Elkjaer not in the main role".

Perhaps its because I was expecting Verona to be the basis for Elkjaer rather than Denmark, but Elkjaer just feels a bit incidental to the side. Like you could replace him with other players with other traits and the tactic would work just as well. Perhaps that is not the "correct" interpretation of the rules by the draft master but it just doesn't feel like Elkjaer is very important to your side. Of course, you could be right and you could be maximizing his ability better than the opponent, I haven't decided where to vote yet.
 
nothing wrong with harms/joga team in my opinion, with strikers and wingers as central players there will always be a dominant creative figure in the team and it should be because that striker/winger(in this case Elkjaer) wouldnt be the same without that influence as harms said.
The main objective was that you guys as managers get the best out of central players and that they have the main role in the team not support one as its often the case in drafts with that level of players.
Having the main role doesnt necessarily means there wont be another player in the main role as well. Football is way to complex to just have one guy dictating the game in every bloody segment of the game. Were Kaka or Xavi support players just because they had Pirlo and Messi in their team? Of course not. Both had main, crucial roles in the team.
Looking at the teams we have seen so far, and also what I already hinted at regarding our game tomorrow, it is pretty clear all the managers were not at the same page regarding this and we simply went with our own interpretations. Many have already created new setups different from what the player played in or was supposedly best in to make them a 'central player'. When the idea of this draft was first floated around, it was said the team will be 'built around' this assigned player and that means something very specific.

I obviously have nothing against either approaches as there wasnt any clear cut instruction on how this was going to be judged so as long as I know clearly what the manager followed, I will judge them based on that. But in the end it has turned out to be a lot different than what I was expecting based on the initial discussions and premise that was pitched in the next draft idea thread. Goes back to the discussion we had in our convo that players who had their most noticeable spells as a support player and not the absolute central figure of the team should never have been the ones assigned in the first place. Has nothing to do with the quality but if you want someone to build a team around a player, then he needs to have that done with him before in some capacity. It becomes highly confusing and different from the host idea otherwise.
 
@Joga Bonito

More than 15 000 views for your Netzer compilation: a deserved recognition :)
I haven't used it in the International Peak Draft because it wasn't (enough) focused on Germany 1972 :-(

Cheers and no issues.

The idea of having three playmakers is quite a good one although a less dominant DLP such as Carrick would have prevented an potential overlap between Guardiola and Netzer - the latter dropped very deep on occasions.

3. If he drops (and he likes to do it on occasions), Kanté & Verratti are not really the players who will take over offensively. Ideally, 4 players should be able to exploit offensively the passing skills of Netzer

Imo the midfield could use with an injection of directness.

Netzer always played with direct and dynamic midfielders (Bonhof, Hoeness, young Stielike, Wimmer or even the relatively creative Danner). That's not to say he can't play with fellow creative midfielders (I've even argued that Overath and him could have worked in other circumstances and believe that the likes of Schuster, Falcao etc would have worked a treat alongside him). So it's interesting seeing him with a dynamic but limited DM in Kante, Guardiola who is more of a deep lying dispatcher and a great and a rapid long range passer, and Verratti as skilful as he was isn't a ball carrier.

Even Beckenbauer with whom he forged a great duo was really direct and a great ball carrier. Netzer at his peak was at the helm of some really direct and dynamic sides and the versatile midfielders played a signifcant role in that. So a direct midfielder or two could have been great imo.

Perhaps its because I was expecting Verona to be the basis for Elkjaer rather than Denmark, but Elkjaer just feels a bit incidental to the side. Like you could replace him with other players with other traits and the tactic would work just as well. Perhaps that is not the "correct" interpretation of the rules by the draft master but it just doesn't feel like Elkjaer is very important to your side. Of course, you could be right and you could be maximizing his ability better than the opponent, I haven't decided where to vote yet.

Ok we'll explain our rationale behind our picks in a moment so that you guys will have a clearer idea of what we've been trying to execute here.
 
I think there is a false debate. The questions are:

1. What are the main strengths of the central player?

2. Why the chosen team will make the central player better than ever? The answer 'Because a similar tactical system worked in the past' is just an answer among others. For instance, I've written I was inspired by United 93/94 but I could have chosen France 90 or France 93....or AC Milan 90.

Anyway, good luck
 
Rationale

First thing we recognized was Elkjaer's all round game and the multi faceted threat that he posed, and how best to fully utilise it.

1) Elkjaer was very much a marauding, ravenous and an explosive forward who played various roles within a match in itself - functioning as the battering ram in the box, holding up the ball and being a pest in general, whilst frequently dropping deep and onto the flanks, creating openings in the process, before making his trademark runs from deep. He had a variety of finishes and moves in his arsenal and our opinion required a varied service and personnel to fully take advantage of the skillset that he possessed.

2) A phenomenal threat from counter attacks too or making runs from deep.


3) During possession he frequently linked up with players, looking to play those one-twos, those quirky one touch passes or went on one of his crazy runs with all those eccentric Elkjaer turns or just blasting forward with defenders bouncing off him


@Chesterlestreet should like this style of presentation





1.00 (Makes a cracking run from deep and should have won a peno)

1.28 (Makes yet another incisve run from deep but finish lets him down)

2.40 (A great run off the ball during possession, should have won a peno again)

8.15 (Drops deep and plays off of Bastrup to take a shot from a deeper position)






@antohan won't like this though


0.18 Makes a great run off the ball off the shoulder of the last defender and scores a poacher-esque goal

2.05 (Positions himself perfectly in the pen box and scores a target man-esque goal from the cross)

2.25 (Very nearly scores a poacher's goal from the rebound)

2.43 (Drags defender out wide and makes a great run down the flanks, opening up space for runners, before putting in a great cross which results in a goal for Lerby (Robson))

7.40 (scores a poachers goal after a great run by Laudrup)

8.20 (burst forward from a deep position to almost score a target man-esque header after a nice cross)

9.22 (scores a fantastic counter-attacking goal that CR7 would be proud from the half line)

10.15 (drops to the right, links up brilliantly, goes past the left back before putting in a pearler of a cross for the sixth goal of the game)


As you can see he takes up a variety of positions, very much being an ubiquitous presence and offers a varied threat - being the focal point, target man inside the box, dropping deep or wide and creating openings, being a destructive force capable of tearing apart defenses with his sheer movement and dribbling or being a more subtle creative or facilitative presence capable of being a provider (via his movement of crossing/link-up play).


Team's Playing Style - Straight off the bat, this was fairly simple, a direct and an explosive style with plenty of dynamism to boot. Plenty of runners, players to link-up with and of course some great wing threat too.

The formation - A 4-3-3 with two wing forwards or creative wide players seemed a bit too reductionist and we didn't want to make Elkjaer too Benzema-ish playing a role too centred towards facilitating other dominant goalscorer(s).

A 3-5-2 made a lot of sense as it would give Elkjaer the room to make those runs and also feed off others if necessary, when he drops deep. Also capitalise on his tendency to drop onto the wings and make those fantastic runs inward. Also fully exploit and take advantage of link-up play.



Will expand on the the playing personnel in the next post
 
I suppose the danger is that Elkjaer gets positively overshadowed. You can't artificially force him into a pure main man role, because that simply isn't his game. But if the idea is to showcase him, you can't marginalize him either (in a normal draft match, that wouldn't have been a problem, as he'd still make plenty of sense as a sheer support player).

Very difficult balance to get right. My initial impression is - perhaps - that two out of Deyna, Robbo and Streltsov would've been fine, but all three may be pushing it. They're very bright, to put it like that. All three could easily steal the show by - let's say - transcending their basic roles. Deyna is a playmaker - but he's also capable of spectacular long range finishes. Robbo is capable of running the match, and decide it directly. Streltsov is a huge X-factor who might enter genius mode and grab the headlines, rather than simply functioning nicely as a second striker. And so forth. All hypothetical, of course, but that's the territory.
 
1. Reuter was a versatile defender who was also capable to play as a RCB with his NT
2. I don't believe in a clash of roles between Guardiola and Netzer: Guardiola was a collective player capable to play simply and efficiently
3. If he drops (and he likes to do it on occasions), Kanté & Verratti are not really the players who will take over offensively. Ideally, 4 players should be able to exploit offensively the passing skills of Netzer

1. Didn't know that about Reuter

2. I view Netzer similarly to Platini and would prefer him to have creative control centrally.