Harms/Joga vs Oaencha - Tactical Draft

Who created a better environment for their star player to shine?


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Šjor Bepo

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Team Harms/Joga

Philosophy/Ideology of tactical set-up

The side is built around "the crazy man from Lokeren", Preben Elkjaer Larsen, and is mainly inspired by the legendary Danish Dynamite (Denmark's national side in the 80's) - while also keeping in mind the Italian Champions of 1985, Hellas Verona. And despite Verona achieving arguably the greatest underdog accomplishment in history (winning the league where the likes of Platini, Zico, Falcao and Maradona played for different competitive sides), you can already see the pattern - both teams never had a period of prolonged success because both were too romantic and, you can even say, a little naive. Elkjaer Larsen was the epitome of both sides - batshit crazy, energetic, direct and fearless, always running forward with the ball regardless of the amount and quality of defenders he faced; the style that will later be associated with the young Fenomeno.

We tried to fill our team with the players who were all incredibly direct (and sometimes even frustratingly so) and, which was quite probably as much important, who shared the same mentality and perception of the game itself. At the same time, the attack is as well-rounded as it can be: Elkjaer is the complete package; Streltsov provides (apart from the obvious goalscoring threat) incredible link-up play, bustling physicality and razor-sharp off the ball movement; Deyna is the prime playmaker of this side whose vision and ingenuity ensures that Elkjaer's ceaseless movement and shrewd runs off the ball will be rewarded; Kaltz (especially) and Demyanenko deliver mouth-watering service from the flanks and a supplementary goal-threat; Robson is the prototype of the all-encompassing goalscoring box-to-box and Bonhof too a complete specimen whose creative faculties matched his destructive ones and tactical acumen.

Style
We won't try to dominate the possession - in fact, our side will be morbidly direct***. The 3-5-2/5-3-2 is naturally a counter-attacking formation and we won't be changing that - because if there is a one thing Preben needs most, it's the liberty and free space to execute his incessant off the ball runs. Blankenburg-Bonhof-Robson and Deyna are all very capable of launching the counter with an accurate ball forward; in Kaltz and Streltsov we have two absolutely unique players with special and quirky deliveries - the German with his bananaflankens and the Russian Pele with his distinctive flick-ons and back-heels; Demyanenko, on the other flank provides a varied threat and his ability to stretch play with his motoring runs would prove to be a vital facet of our play here

***Whilst we have an extremely direct side, the likes of Robson and Deyna possess cool calm heads and are very much capable of providing the direction, composure and most importantly the leaderships qualities to go with the explosiveness. Vital qualities which shouldn't go under the radar.

Central player

If Laudrup characterized the genius at the heart of the Danish Dynamites, Lerby the sheer drive, then Elkjaer was the epitome of the sheer explosiveness and verticality behind his sides. Elkjaer on his trademark barnstorming rampages, like a man possessed was always quite the sight to behold. A potent blend of explosiveness, nifty footwork, pace and sheer physicality made Elkjaer a unique and at times unstoppable tour de force, capable of wreaking havoc on even the most sturdiest and organised defenses (just ask the peak eighties Serie A defenses).

He was determination incarnate, and his seemingly endless lung capacity is even more amazing given that he was a chain smoker. Often he would go on me-against-the-world runs, culminating most notably in famous strikes against Belgium and USSR. He would simply run through defenders (see his goal against Scotland in 1986) and if a brick wall got in the way, well, he'd take his chances. In short, nothing was going to stop him scoring, and it was fitting that, in the 1984-85 season in which he inspired little Verona to the Serie A title, he scored a superb solo goal against the reigning champions Juventus with no boot on his right foot, having lost it during a surge down the left. He nagged away at defenders constantly, inverting the 80s relationship between defender and attacker, and must have been a nightmare to play against.

Yet there was so much more to Elkjær than raw desire. He had wonderful balance and sublime skill: one ninja-like turn on Russell Osman during the 2-2 draw in 1982 boggles the mind almost as much as the famous Dennis Bergkamp goal at Newcastle; he developed the Elkjær turn, a spin-off of the Cruyff turn, when he was on holiday in Barbados and saw kids playing with coconuts on the beach. He was an incredibly aggressive finisher with both feet, from short – and long range; and if he was occasionally iffy in the air, his overall record – 38 in 69 games – brooks no argument. Truly, there have been very few forwards in the game's history with such a complete range of skills. He came third in the Ballon d'Or in 1984, second in 1985 and fourth in 1986. He also won the Bronze Ball at Mexico 86, the only instance of a player knocked out in the last 16 winning this award.



Defense

As always it very much starts from the back. 2 buccaneering wing backs, 2 physical all-rounders as center backs and an outstanding libero. There are very few phenomenons in football which gives rise to an indescribable feeling when you first witness it. Blankenberg and Hulshoff, the CB pairing, playing like #10s for Ajax is definitely one of them. Very few encapsulated the adventurous nature and the free-spirited essence of the libero like Blankenberg did (so much so that Cruyff invited him to play for the Dutch).

Morten Olsen very much played a key role for Denmark and those long sweeping balls from the back which accurately found Elkjaer in the midst of his barnstorming runs or allowing him to exploit his physicality against deep lying defenses with his link-up and hold-up play, were very much a frequent feature of the Danish Dynamites.In Blankenberg we have an accolmplished passer of the ball and an adventurous libero in every sesne of the word, who'd be a critical facet of our set-up here.



Schwarzenbeck made it his life's work to cover for a similar player, Vierchowod, with his pace and aggressiveness, is exactly what we need in this covering role. Demyanenko was the captain of Lobanovsky's spirited Dynamo and a rampaging presence who singlehandedly manned the flanks for club and country, with Kaltz is one of the greatest wingbacks ever and his bananaflanken-fuelled partnership with Hrubesh is the stuff of legends.

Midfield

Our multi-faceted and aggressive midfield is inspired by the Danish Dynamites with Elkjaer in mind. Instead of Laudrup we have Deyna, who shares the same elegance, vision and ubiquity - yet at the same time you can't blame him for the welcome injection of graft and goalscoring prowess that he brings to the table. With the link-up play and roaming nature of Elkjaer and Streltsov, this is an aspect we'd like to highlight.

Right at the heart of everything we have Bryan Robson, the epitome of a talismanic attacking box-to-box (Stevie who?), flying into crunching tackles and scoring screamers, whilst critically allying it with tactical acumen and awareness, with the craft to be at the fore of the supplyline for the forward line, and the dynamism to dovetail with our incredibly dynamic attacking unit. In lieu with Bonhof, one could hardly ask for a more dynamic or solid midfield base. Bonhof's defensive expertise and versatility, is well known, having played in every role in defence and midfield and even being a dedicated man-marker of Gerd Müller when Borussia faced Bayern; yet he also offers something else - an understanding of our a gung ho, idealistically direct system (I also see similarities with Mönchengladbach's side of the 70's), and a perfect set of skills to glue everything together. Both are very much capable of unleashing a fiercesome thunderbastard from 35 yards (poor Clemence should know a thing or two about that), executing a crunching tackle, foraging forward unpredictably or onto the flanks, pinging a lovely lofted ball for an assist - Robson's lovely left peg is testament to this Bonhof's vital assists speak for themselves - Gerd Muller's winning goal in the 1974 World Cup final as well as 4 assists in the semi-final and final of the 1976 European Championship.

Attack

Naturally it's built around Elkjaer, and he has the spatial freedom and tactical liberty to roam around, receiving a steady stream, and most importantly, a varied supplyline, whilst doing his thing - probing and opening up the gaps for his teammates (like he did for Briegel, Laudrup, Lerby et cetera). Streltsov combines outstanding physicality with his unique understanding of the game and willingness to bring others in play. It's really his link up play that made him that stand out, even though he was a goalscoring sensation in his early years. He also naturally drifts to the left, so they won't be bothering each other much - and Elkjaer will cherish all these smart flicks, one-twos and cheeky backheels.

Player Roles

H. Schumacher - Goalkeeper
H. Blankenburg - Libero
P. Vierchowod - Stopper (right)
H.-G. Schwarzenbeck - Stopper (left)
M. Kaltz - Right wingback with full creative freedom
A. Demyanenko - Left wingback
R. Bonhof - Defensive minded midfielder
B. Robson - Attacking box-to-box (more videos on the same channel)
K. Deyna - Attacking playmaker
E. Streltsov - "Target" striker (more videos here)
P. Elkær Larsen - Free-roaming forward


Specific Tactical Manoeuvres

Some of the examples. Of course we are not limited to that - and all the situations can be mirrored (Demyanenko instead of Kaltz, Bonhof instead of Robson etc)

- Strikers lure away defenders, Robson runs to the free space (and scores)
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- Overcrowding the opposition's box before the cross (in dynamic)
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- Lots of options to start a counter with the long ball to one of our strikers, sorry for the amount of arrows, but you can also add Demyanenko and Bonhof to it :lol:
For example - Elkjær against Scirea's Juve, Streltsov against West Germany in 1956
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- Streltsov flicks the long ball towards already running Elkjaer with his first touch
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Team Oeancha

Formation
Possession: 3-6-1
Defending: 6-3-1
Attacking: 3-4-3


Style
Free flowing, creative, attacking football. Sit deep and compact when defending, ready to spring a fast counter attack.

Ideology
The team is set up to be extremely versatile. Both sides of the pitch are packed with pace. Alaba, Reuter, Giggs and Bene are seriously fast players and all four have free reign to attack down the wings. Rosato, Guardiola and Kante will stay back while the team is attacking and create a solid core in the event of losing possession. Verratti can provide extra defensive support or push forward if Netzer has no space. Netzer has a completely free role. His main objective is to push the ball forward and create opportunities for Inzaghi, Giggs and Bene. However, he also has the freedom to take on players and shoot if he wants. Inzaghi’s sole job is to stay in the box and convert easy chances.

Player Roles
*Detailed instructions in Defending / Attacking
*More information about Preud’homme, Rosato and Bene at the end of post


Michel Preud’homme: Goalkeeper

Excellent reflexes, handling and technique. First point of distribution.

Stefan Reuter: Wing Back / Full Back
Ridiculously fast with a lethal long shot. Free reign to get forward while attacking. Reverting to full back while defending.

David Alaba: Wing Back / Full Back
Fast, versatile and intelligent. Free reign to get forward while attacking. Reverting to full back while defending.

Roberto Rosato: Centre Back / Stopper
A strong, aggressive, ‘You shall not pass’ defender who throws his body into tackles. Despite his lack of height he is a menace in the air. He will be the last line of defence.

Pep Guardiola: Deep Playmaker / Ball Winner
Fantastic passing and tackling skills. His positioning and awareness make him ideal to organise the defence. He will just be on defensive duties.

N’Golo Kante: Ball Winner
Limitless energy. He will chase down opposition players and win possession back as quickly as possible. He will primarily be on defensive duty but can push forward if necessary.

Marco Verratti: Playmaker / Ball Winner
Calm, collected and an expert in accurate passing. He will track back when defending and support Netzer as a second advanced playmaker while attacking.

Günter Netzer: Advanced Playmaker / Central Player

Phenomenal passing range and composure. The main playmaker who will focus on getting the ball forward, creating chances and shooting from distance.

Ferenc Bene: Winger / Wide Forward
A dynamic, lightning-quick dribbler with an incredible scoring record. He will attack the right wing, crossing low into the box or cutting inside to shoot.

Ryan Giggs: Winger / Wide Forward
No introduction needed as we all know how good Giggs is. He will attack the left wing, crossing low into the box or cutting inside to shoot.

Filippo Inzaghi: Poacher
Not pretty to watch but he knows how to score. He will be stationed in the penalty area waiting for the right time to pounce.

Central Player - Günter Netzer
A truly gifted player with a phenomenal passing range, elegant technique and lethal finishing abilities; not to mention being a set piece and crossing specialist. He was an undisputed leader and displayed an aura of subtle arrogance.

Excerpt
‘Deployed mainly as an attacking midfielder, he spent the majority of his career at Borussia Mönchengladbach, scoring 108 goals in 297 games. The most famous being in the 1973 DFB-Pokal final against FC Köln. He started as a sub and went onto the pitch during extra time, on his own authority, simply telling the coach "I'll go and play now" whilst removing his tracksuit. He then went on to score the winning goal with only his second contact three minutes later. In 1973 Real Madrid needed to respond to Barcelona signing Johan Cruyff and convinced Netzer to come to the Santiago Bernabéu. He spent three years with Real Madrid winning two La Ligas and two Copa Del Reys’.

I am not trying to re-create any of the past formations Netzer’s played in. I have built a squad which compliments his skill set and gives him absolute freedom; much like the freedom he was given by manager Hennes Weisweiler at Borussia Mönchengladbach. Guardiola, Kante and Verratti will all provide him cover so he has no defensive duties at all. He just has to focus on pushing forward and utilising his fantastic passing range. If Netzer gets man-marked then Verratti will push further forward and become a second attacking playmaker.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Günter_Netzer



Defending
Despite the attacking nature of the team they are rock solid when defending.

Preud’homme is more than equipped to deal with shots and crosses at any distance. His presence and reliability will give the team confidence.

Guardiola, Kante and Verratti will drop deep, providing Rosato with support. All three are fantastic tacklers and they will create a wall in front of the penalty area. Kante will press the opposition hard and attempt to win the ball back as quickly as possible. Guardiola and Verratti will stay composed and wait for the right time to tackle. If the opposition manage to break through, Rosato will charge in and clear the ball by any means necessary.

Reuter and Alaba will revert to full backs and block any attacks down the wings.

Inzaghi will stay forward, while Netzer, Giggs and Bene will drop to the halfway line ready for the counter attack. None of these four have any defensive responsibilities.

Attacking
One of the main strengths of the team is the myriad of options going forward.

Netzer has support from every position on the pitch and wherever he passes there will be a player who can provide an attacking threat. He can play the ball out wide to Giggs and Alaba on the left or Bene and Reuter on the right. He can cut out the middle man and just play the ball through the centre to Inzaghi. Alternatively, he can just take the shot on himself. He scored countless goals from outside the area and has free reign to shoot if he has space. If he is heavily marked he can also play the ball back to Verratti who can continue the attack himself.

Rosato, Guardiola and Kante will stay back and cover in case possession breaks down.

There are three playmakers in the team; Netzer (advanced), Verratti (defensive or advanced) and Guardiola (defensive). All three have incredible passing skills and vision. They have the option of passing to each other through the middle or passing down the wings to Giggs and Alaba or Bene and Reuter.

Alaba and Reuter are both blessed with pace and have free reign to get forward. They have the option of either passing through the middle to Verratti and Netzer, passing down the wings to Giggs and Bene or overlapping them and crossing low into the box for Inzaghi. Reuter has a history of scoring screamers and is allowed to shoot from distance if he sees the right opportunity.

Giggs and Bene are both dynamic, lightning quick dribblers who can easily beat their man. Both are free to either speed down the wings and cross low into Inzaghi, wait for Alaba and Reuter to overlap or cut inside and take shots themselves.

Inzaghi will do what Inzaghi does best; hang around in the area looking for tap-ins, while creating space for Giggs and Bene.

Lesser Known Players
For those not familiar with Preud’homme, Rosato and Bene

Michel Preud’homme (Career 1977-1999)
A world-class, elegant, efficient, and consistent goalkeeper, regarded as one of the greatest goalkeepers of all time. He was the first winner of the Yashin Award as the best goalkeeper at the 1994 World Cup. Preud'homme was mainly known for his excellent shot-stopping abilities, quick reflexes, agility, strength, tenacity, handling, and his ability to come off his line to collect crosses, as well as his tendency to produce spectacular and decisive saves. After his professional football career, Michel Preud'homme stayed at Benfica to become technical director. In September 2000, he suggested to the club that they should attract José Mourinho to become the head coach. At that time, Mourinho was just an interpreter at Barcelona. Preud'homme met Mourinho when he once visited Barcelona.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Preud'homme

Roberto Rosato (Career 1960-1079)
A powerful, hard-tackling, man-marking centre back often regarded as one of the greatest and most complete Italian defenders of all time. In addition to his tough, determined, physical, and aggressive style of play, he was also extremely composed and elegant on the ball, due to his notable technical ability and balance; he was also known for his commanding influence on the pitch. Rosato is mostly remembered for his highly successful time with Milan, where he won a host of domestic and international trophies (1 Serie A title, 3 Coppa Italia titles, 1 European Cup, 2 European Super Cups, and 1 Intercontinental Cup), forming a formidable back-line alongside Cudicini, Schneliinger, Anguilletti, and Trapattoni.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Rosato

Ferenc Bene (Career 1961-1979)

A vastly underrated player who spent his entire career playing for Újpesti Dózsa. Predominantly a striker, he scored an incredible 303 goals in 417 games. He was pushed out wide right while playing for the Hungarian national team to supplement Flórián Albert. However, he made the position his own and scored an impressive 36 goals in 76 games. Putting that into context the legendary Flórián Albert scored 31 goals in 75 games. He was best known for his performances with Hungary at the 1966 World Cup. A crucial member of ‘The Mighty Magyars’, he tormented defenders and ended up as Hungary’s top scorer at the tournament.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferenc_Bene
 
  • Draft matches would be decided based on who has crafted/built the more coherent and cohesive tactical set-up around his main star as opposed to who might win in a fantasy encounter. Hopefully, this paves way for interesting discussions on the set-ups themselves - delving deeper into the creation/evolution etc of said set-up - and the personnel fit.
  • Voters are asked to consider the XIs featured as 2 separate teams not like a classic game of football, and to consider to what extent the manager has succeeded in building around his central figure. This is not a fantasy match but a comparison of 2 tactical attempts.
  • Teams will be built and judged for best tactical fits rather then the quality of the team. First, team has to be perfectly built around the central figure, if both teams are very close then you look at the other specific pairings, good fits for the team etc. if the level is still close then you watch at quality of the individual players except of the central player.

good luck @harms @Joga Bonito @Oaencha
 
As if this game wasn't @Joga Bonito's worst nightmare already, his own Netzer's compilation is getting used against him :lol:

Cheers and good luck, @Oaencha. That's an interesting formation, will have to think it over; I like that you went with an unorthodox idea, should motivate the discussion, at least
 
So you just copied my EE draft setup to use Streltsov.
Robson has a massive neck.
Deyna looks like an existentialist hippie.
 
As if this game wasn't @Joga Bonito's worst nightmare already, his own Netzer's compilation is getting used against him :lol:

Cheers and good luck, @Oaencha. That's an interesting formation, will have to think it over; I like that you went with an unorthodox idea, should motivate the discussion, at least
I didn't realise it is Joga Bonito's video! The Irony! :lol:

Thanks, I thought I would try something different. I have a feeling some posters won't like it but the formation is more balanced than it looks and as you said, it should spark some debate.
 
We've linked some of the videos in the player roles section, but I'll repeat them here for those who just glance through the OP. Not for the sake of a win, but as we want to highlight some of our players who really shouldn't be taking part in this draft - but rather belong in the blocked list :rolleyes:
Spoilered, of course.

Bryan Robson. Quite often his defensive awareness and tactical intelligence gets overlooked - mostly because first and foremost he gets compared to Keane, and as it's impossible to say that one was superior to the other, Robson's attacking game is, paradoxically, diminishes his all-roundness and defensive competence in public perception. Joga made a few all-touch compilations for this draft. I'll put one of them here and will link others below - here Robson is almost single-handedly tries to keep up with the famous "carré magique" - French four-man midfield unit consisting of Platini, Tigana, Giresse and Fernandez


Eduard Streltsov. Trying to raise awareness of his greatness, to sell him, if you will, has been a long-term project of mine, as many here already know. I won't bore you with his story - but for this draft I've made match compilations of the only three full games that are available of him. They all are from 1967 - after he served his 5-year long prison sentence and the additional 2 years of not being allowed to play competitive football. It's a pretty unique scenario - to return after a 7 year break and still to shine - not only domestically (Streltsov was voted Soviet player of the year in 1967 and 1968), but also internationally, as you will see in the videos. It's also pretty interesting how his performance is always getting better as the game goes forward, and most of his goals or assists came in the second half, closer to the end of a game.


Other compilations:
Against France (friendly)
Against Austria (second game)

Bonus:
Backheel nutmeg assist in the Cup final - something that we expect him to do here, with Elkjaer, Deyna and Robson around


Manfred Kaltz. Not the most popular name for some reason (probably because he spent all his career playing for Hamburg), but he is, without any doubt, one of the best and most productive attacking fullbacks of all time. I'm not exaggerating - check out his magnificent performance against Real Madrid in the European Cup semi-final, for example.


Horst Blankenburg. We wrote a bit about him in the OP. Just to highlight his quality, this is the kind of the performances that saw him being called up for the World XI, despite never getting a cup for his home country


Kazimierz Deyna. Another somehow underrated player, he was a player of enormous gravitas, competing with Cruyff and Beckenbauer for the title of the real star of 1974 World Cup. He also stands second in the all-time list of players with most chances created in a single World Cup - on par with Xavi and ahead of Pele, with only Cruyff being superior in that aspect (opta stats - Cruyff is on 36, Deyna and Xavi on 30 and Pele is on 28). Breitner called that Poland the best side of 1974 World Cup, and while those words should be taken with a pinch of salt (German-Dutch rivalry and all that), he definitely has a point.
 
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A bit Downcast-ish, but here we go. The example of our counter-attacking goal. Elkjaer passes to Deyna/Robson, they pass it to Demyanenko, who kicks the ball forward ("Deyna's" and "Demyanenko's" passes in this combination are pretty simple, so I won't post the real analogies). Streltsov, moving out wide, puts a cross with his left (it was one of his trademark moves), Elkjaer finishes it.

The goal I'm basing it on:


Streltsov showing that he is well-capable of fulfilling the role we gave him in this combination:


 
All of my players except Bene, Rosato and maybe Preud'homme are well known so I won't link any videos. If anyone has any questions about my formation or tactics, please ask.
 
All of my players except Bene, Rosato and maybe Preud'homme are well known so I won't link any videos. If anyone has any questions about my formation or tactics, please ask.
I'm quite interesting as of why you chose Guardiola for that role. Not sure that I buy him as a defence-first player, and him as a secondary playmaker with someone more defensively astute in place of Verratti would've made more sense to me.

Bene is a great choice by the way, while I don't think that your formation is ideal (Verratti/Guardiola and Reuter are the ones I'm not really seeing/rating in that system), he is an inspirational pick to partner Netzer with.

Preud'homme is well-known though, and is without a shed of doubt one of the stand out keepers in the draft.
 
I'm quite interesting as of why you chose Guardiola for that role.
I like it. It's the same role that Cruyff gave him in the legendary dream team and they clearly didn't have much of an issue against most teams. With Kante and Verratti in midfield, it will work well.
 
I'm quite interesting as of why you chose Guardiola for that role. Not sure that I buy him as a defence-first player, and him as a secondary playmaker with someone more defensively astute in place of Verratti would've made more sense to me.

Bene is a great choice by the way, while I don't think that your formation is ideal (Verratti/Guardiola and Reuter are the ones I'm not really seeing/rating in that system), he is an inspirational pick to partner Netzer with.

Preud'homme is well-known though, and is without a shed of doubt one of the stand out keepers in the draft.
I chose Guardiola because of his tackling and passing skills but also his positioning and sense of awareness. Rosato was known to lose his head at times, so Guardiola is there to calm him and organise the defence.

I chose Verratti because of his versatility. He can support Netzer as an advanced playmaker and also support the defence as a defensive playmaker. Not to mention he has an incredible pass completion average and is no fool when it comes to tackling.

I chose Reuter because of his speed and attacking skills. He is also very reliable at defending.

I wanted three playmakers in the team to ensure the passing is spot on and the counter attacks could start from anywhere on the pitch.
 
Nice to see @Oaencha go with a formation I've tried to work myself previously.

If I was judging this as a normal match Harms wins due to his formation being one of the few to field 2 strikers. It would cause nightmares for that defence.

However, as getting the best out of a star man I really like how he's set up. Plenty of room whilst still having many link up options.

Not going to vote yet as I'll wait to see some more of the discussions going on.
 
Also, just to clarify what the 'getting the best of your star player' meant, I see Elkjaer as the assigned player here however given the selections, there are others like Streltsov, Deyna or Robbo who are likely to steal the show here. I understand that Elkjaer played with other stars like Laudrup but when me and Gio got our player, who was similarly a secondary in his team, we thought that it would be against the spirit of the whole 'building a team around the assigned player' if we simply picked stars in the other position even if he was known to have that environment. Now, I understand that this is something down to interpretation of everyone and while the team here looks great overall, I can't see Elkjaer being a central figure in this line up, with the names mentioned around him, which we thought was something important considering the theme.
 
Nice to see @Oaencha go with a formation I've tried to work myself previously.

If I was judging this as a normal match Harms wins due to his formation being one of the few to field 2 strikers. It would cause nightmares for that defence.

However, as getting the best out of a star man I really like how he's set up. Plenty of room whilst still having many link up options.

Not going to vote yet as I'll wait to see some more of the discussions going on.
Thank you for the imput. The opposition's attack is good granted but when my team defends there are essentially six players at the back. Imo they can deal with the attack. To quote myself:

Guardiola, Kante and Verratti will drop deep, providing Rosato with support. All three are fantastic tacklers and they will create a wall in front of the penalty area. Kante will press the opposition hard and attempt to win the ball back as quickly as possible. Guardiola and Verratti will stay composed and wait for the right time to tackle. If the opposition manage to break through, Rosato will charge in and clear the ball by any means necessary. Reuter and Alaba will revert to full backs and block any attacks down the wings.
 
Also, just to clarify what the 'getting the best of your star player' meant, I see Elkjaer as the assigned player here however given the selections, there are others like Streltsov, Deyna or Robbo who are likely to steal the show here. I understand that Elkjaer played with other stars like Laudrup but when me and Gio got our player, who was similarly a secondary in his team, we thought that it would be against the spirit of the whole 'building a team around the assigned player' if we simply picked stars in the other position even if he was known to have that environment. Now, I understand that this is something down to interpretation of everyone and while the team here looks great overall, I can't see Elkjaer being a central figure in this line up, with the names mentioned around him, which we thought was something important considering the theme.

Your post is strange.

12. Moby/Gio (A. Giresse)
1. V. Voronin 2. M. Tardelli 3. Blanc 4. KH Forster 5. J Rep 6. JA Camacho 7. Eder 8. D McGrain 9. S. Aguero 10. F. Toldo 11. Kily Gonzalez
 
Also, just to clarify what the 'getting the best of your star player' meant, I see Elkjaer as the assigned player here however given the selections, there are others like Streltsov, Deyna or Robbo who are likely to steal the show here. I understand that Elkjaer played with other stars like Laudrup but when me and Gio got our player, who was similarly a secondary in his team, we thought that it would be against the spirit of the whole 'building a team around the assigned player' if we simply picked stars in the other position even if he was known to have that environment. Now, I understand that this is something down to interpretation of everyone and while the team here looks great overall, I can't see Elkjaer being a central figure in this line up, with the names mentioned around him, which we thought was something important considering the theme.
So the choice is to pick players who are definitely worse than Elkjaer? We picked players with the same view of the game, and we created the system to maximize Elkjaer's influence - not only in the goalscoring aspect (although Deyna, Kaltz, Streltsov etc. will make sure that he'll get enough service to score), but also his all-roundness - and, for example, to recreate his partnerships with Briegel/Lerby by putting Robson here.

Did Briegel or Lerby, or Laudrup stole the show when they played with him? Or did they, and especially Briegel's goalscoring exploits, only highlighted Elkjaer's greatness?

I understand that people can see it differently but it's a strange criticism.

Edit: surprisingly, I agree with Downcast too - Voronin is especially likely to steal the show from Giresse, for example, with his all-round influence and tight grip on the game
 
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Also, just to clarify what the 'getting the best of your star player' meant, I see Elkjaer as the assigned player here however given the selections, there are others like Streltsov, Deyna or Robbo who are likely to steal the show here. I understand that Elkjaer played with other stars like Laudrup but when me and Gio got our player, who was similarly a secondary in his team, we thought that it would be against the spirit of the whole 'building a team around the assigned player' if we simply picked stars in the other position even if he was known to have that environment. Now, I understand that this is something down to interpretation of everyone and while the team here looks great overall, I can't see Elkjaer being a central figure in this line up, with the names mentioned around him, which we thought was something important considering the theme.

There's a fine line between building around and getting the best out of. Actually, it isn't fine, it's pretty significant. Harms' side definitely gets the best out of Preben with plenty of room to roam and scope for counterattacking or dominating games.

It is fair to say that the side would suffer more from losing other players though. Mind you, unless Rosato is Superman, the other side is never going to work, and if he is indeed Superman then the same thing holds there.
 
So the choice is to pick players who are definitely worse than Elkjaer? We picked players with the same view of the game, and we created the system to maximize Elkjaer's influence - not only in the goalscoring aspect (although Deyna, Kaltz, Streltsov etc. will make sure that he'll get enough service to score), but also his all-roundness - and, for example, to recreate his partnerships with Briegel/Lorby by putting Robson here.

Did Briegel or Lorby, or Laudrup stole the show when they played with him? Or did they, and especially Briegel's goalscoring exploits, only highlighted Elkjaer's greatness?

I understand that people can see it differently but it's a strange criticism.

Edit: surprisingly, I agree with Downcast too - Voronin is especially likely to steal the show from Giresse, for example, with his all-round influence and tight grip on the game

You are getting perilously close to losing my vote there.
 
Also, just to clarify what the 'getting the best of your star player' meant, I see Elkjaer as the assigned player here however given the selections, there are others like Streltsov, Deyna or Robbo who are likely to steal the show here. I understand that Elkjaer played with other stars like Laudrup but when me and Gio got our player, who was similarly a secondary in his team, we thought that it would be against the spirit of the whole 'building a team around the assigned player' if we simply picked stars in the other position even if he was known to have that environment. Now, I understand that this is something down to interpretation of everyone and while the team here looks great overall, I can't see Elkjaer being a central figure in this line up, with the names mentioned around him, which we thought was something important considering the theme.

Well when the central player that you've been assigned based a signifcant portion of his game around others with his link up play, movement off the ball and team ethic being the forefront of his play, it only makes sense to accommodate him accordingly (just as Lerby was a great and direct presence in midfield and Laudrup the facilitative playmaking presence who dovetailed fantastically with Elkjaer and allowed him to exploit his directness and Elkjaer in turn creating space for them and linking up exceptionally well).

It was very much a two way street and of course we could have gone with a 4-3-3 with two purely service oriented wide players or a 4-5-1 with a jam packed midfield, with Elkjaer as the pure battering ram or the lone ball carrying forward, with all the onus but that wouldn't be faithful to his game, nor would it by any means get the best out of him and allow us to see prime Elkjaer (unlike an individualist or prime playmaker like Rivera or Mazzola etc who had the vast majority of the attacking onus thrust upon them).

If anything gaining a player as selfless and complete as Elkjaer who had various facets to his game, equal parts talismanic influence and equal parts accomodative and supportive in nature, and just focusing on one of those parts and neglecting the other would go against the theme of the draft. It wouldn't be any different to getting Hassler or Giresse and building the entire side around them like they are Maradona. Completely goes against the very point of their playing style and at worst, misrepresents it
 
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You are getting perilously close to losing my vote there.
:lol: The letter ø stuck in my mind, but it was from Søren, fecking hell! Shame on me, I'm usually obsessively precise.
 
Streltsov combines outstanding physicality with his unique understanding of the game and willingness to bring others in play. It's really his link up play that made him that stand out, even though he was a goalscoring sensation in his early years.

You're using the 20yo younger version of Streltsov here? Probably a better tactical fit with Elkjaer, but not really his 'peak' later year incarnation.
 
Something about Oaencha's team doen't feel right. Bene was best paired with a crative forward like Albert whereas Inzaghi is total a opposite. Defensively suspect too. But if you consider the build around Netzer as a standalone, I like it.
 
Something about Oaencha's team doen't feel right. Bene was best paired with a crative forward like Albert whereas Inzaghi is total a opposite. Defensively suspect too. But if you consider the build around Netzer as a standalone, I like it.
That's a very fair point but he played as a forward / winger for Újpesti Dózsa. He was very much the main man and didn't need a creative forward. Also, my team is not short of creative players to help him.

Ultimately, as you said the team is built around Netzer's skillset.
 
I understand that people can see it differently but it's a strange criticism.
It's not a criticism, I'm merely asking how others saw it, to get a better understanding of why they went with the choices they did.

There's a fine line between building around and getting the best out of.
Precisely. As far as I'm concerned, 'building a team around someone' especially when they are an attacking player, would mean the majority of the game will flow through them or would have them as a central figure. Say, if that is a striker, then it would be in a system where they are clearly the primary goalscorer and the rest are there to provide the platform or the service to get them on the scoresheet, if then you have a system where there are better goalscorers who in an ideal situation would be the ones getting more goals or at the end of the chances then that concept goes out of the window, does it not? It could still be the 'best environment' for the said player if he has other aspects which would be used and there is no doubt that Elkjaer would be great in this team but if this was a real game, I struggle to see a large percentage of iterations where Elkjaer would be the man of the match, or at least the attacker who clearly gets the limelight or something like that. I say this as I consider Streltsov a superior to Elkjaer in their primary aspects, when I played him I picked someone as selfless as Klose next to him because he's the sort of player who would love to shine in a game while the rest work towards making that happen. In a way, he's being what the assigned player would be if we were to go with these guidelines.
 
A few people have mentioned that my team is defensively suspect. When defending the team will look like this. Six players who are all good at tackling.

-------------- Preud'homme -------------

Reuter ---------- Rosato ---------- Alaba

---- Kante ----- Guardiola --- Verratti
 
Well when the central player that you've been assigned based a signifcant portion of his game around others with his link up play, movement off the ball and team ethic being the forefront of his play, it only makes sense to accommodate him accordingly
That was a big dilemma we had, honestly, simply as Giresse is also someone who excelled in an environment around other superstars like Platini and Tigana and provided a lot of what a supporting player would, not a central player, which is the root of the conflict. Similarly here, there were probably two paths for you, to either surround Elkjaer with similar quality as he was in his prime and use his qualities that provided them the balance or have Elkjaer on his own as the star man and get the supporting cast who in terms of style would be willing to take a back seat and let him excel. If we look at the other efforts so far, both of these have been done, some have recreated the environment the player was in, and some have created a new one with the player as the central figure, so it's basically been down to preference/interpretation etc.
 
It wouldn't be any different to getting Hassler or Giresse and building the entire side around them like they are Maradona.
That's what we have gone for. :lol:

For us the objective was to get him as the clear cut alpha in the team, the one who would be in charge of the attack, more than replicating his role in the sides he played for. Though of course that would be discussed more tomorrow in our game.
 
You're using the 20yo younger version of Streltsov here? Probably a better tactical fit with Elkjaer, but not really his 'peak' later year incarnation.
Actually no. While I don't agree with Aldo's criticism, he would have a point if we were to field young Streltsov - who was more akin to Elkjaer himself; as a team it would've worked even better, probably, but there would be (albeit minor) overlap with two free-roaming forwards. Streltsov of late, who you can see in my compilations, was more of a reference point with Elkjaer buzzing around (that's why one of the tactical maneuvers is Streltsov receiving a long ball and flicking it to the accelerating Elkjaer). Although he was still mobile enough to make those runs on the left wing from time to time, or to get to the end of Elkjaer's/Kaltz/etc. balls from the right.

And as far as his peak goes, it was still in his youth, up until 1958. 18 goals in 21 games for the national team (including a debut hat-trick against Sweden, WC finalists 3 years later; goals against West Germany, Hungary, equalizer against Bulgaria, who haven't lost a game in 3 years, in the Olympic semi-finals, where 2 Soviet players were injured) etc. Made it to both Ballon D'Or lists before the imprisonment - 13th in 1956 (19 years old), 7th in 1957; would've won Soviet footballer of the year at least once if the award existed.
 
and there is no doubt that Elkjaer would be great in this team

Cheers

, I struggle to see a large percentage of iterations where Elkjaer would be the man of the match, or at least the attacker who clearly gets the limelight or something like that. I say this as I consider Streltsov a superior to Elkjaer in their primary aspects, when I played him I picked someone as selfless as Klose next to him because he's the sort of player who would love to shine in a game while the rest work towards making that happen. In a way, he's being what the assigned player would be if we were to go with these guidelines.

Get where you are coming from and I shared the same concerns initially with all the Russian Pele monikers and what not. I felt Streltsov might have been too individualistic before harms set me straight. The best thing about Streltsov was his link up play and all those nifty feet touch passes and ability to set up others.

We were considering Forlan, Ceulemans and Streltsov for that role basically. Whilst Forlan would have been nice, there were some overlaps and Ceulemans was a bit more midfielderish and we didn't need that with our midfield cast. Streltsov brings the goalscoring threat and also the link up play needed for Elkjaer to fully utilise and exploit his elusive runs off the ball and his dribbles on it. Whilst Streltsov too can capitalise on Elkjaer's interplay and the space created by the Dane. Got to be a better experience than playing with Byshovets for starters :lol:, all those sad smileys by harms :lol:
.

Watching Streltsov play, his facilitative link up play, physicality and intelligent and subtle movement off the ball really caught my eye (Enigma made a comparison to Bergkamp which speaks volumes).

Do make sure to watch those videos on Streltsov that harms made or tag harms if you'd like any more clarifications (or be corrected like me) regarding Streltsov and his playing style.
 
That's what we have gone for. :lol:

For us the objective was to get him as the clear cut alpha in the team, the one who would be in charge of the attack, more than replicating his role in the sides he played for. Though of course that would be discussed more tomorrow in our game.

Fair enough it's subjective but am looking forward to your match up.
 
Precisely. As far as I'm concerned, 'building a team around someone' especially when they are an attacking player, would mean the majority of the game will flow through them or would have them as a central figure. Say, if that is a striker, then it would be in a system where they are clearly the primary goalscorer and the rest are there to provide the platform or the service to get them on the scoresheet, if then you have a system where there are better goalscorers who in an ideal situation would be the ones getting more goals or at the end of the chances then that concept goes out of the window, does it not? It could still be the 'best environment' for the said player if he has other aspects which would be used and there is no doubt that Elkjaer would be great in this team but if this was a real game, I struggle to see a large percentage of iterations where Elkjaer would be the man of the match, or at least the attacker who clearly gets the limelight or something like that. I say this as I consider Streltsov a superior to Elkjaer in their primary aspects, when I played him I picked someone as selfless as Klose next to him because he's the sort of player who would love to shine in a game while the rest work towards making that happen. In a way, he's being what the assigned player would be if we were to go with these guidelines.
Well, the point of the team-building is to highlight their specific qualities, no? Or would you make Cantona and Raul the focal point of every attack - because as strikers they should score more, by your logic. The beauty of Elkjaer is in his all-round game, not only goalscoring, but also those devastating runs, on and off the ball, amazing workrate, the love of one-twos and cheeky turns and tricks. We provide him the perfect platform to shine and showcase all those qualities - and not only his goalscoring, which was, quite frankly, not his strongest suit. In 1985, when Verona won the championship, he (the undisputed star of that team) was outscored not only by Galderisi, his striking partner, but also by Briegel. Granted, Briegel was playing in midfield and not as a fullback, but are you saying that in Verona Elkjaer wasn't at his best?

And Elkjaer is, actually, our main goalscorer - but we don't rely on him - like in all his teams, he has enough secondary goalthreats (Streltsov, Deyna, Robson), to not be overly concerned about it. I'd even argue that putting him as a sole forward with all focus being on him, scoring, would very much limit him and his game.

Regarding Streltsov - I specifically highlighted it in my compilation against France, but he was never concerned about being the main man. In fact, playing with Byshovets - incredibly talented, but rather selfish player with real issues on decision-making, he allowed him to shine while making himself a figure of distraction for the defenders, dropping back and creating chances for him and Chislenko.

The last thing is - do you not pick players who are equally/comparably talented as your central man, because you're afraid that they'll outshine him? When there is no style or responsibility overlap, but they have it in them to steal the show against any opposition? I don't think that it's right. And it also depends on how high do you rate your star player in the first place.

I think that Streltsov was more talented, but when we compare their careers overall, I don't think that there is any gap between them - more so, as Streltsov never participated on the international stage (:(:(:(), Elkjaer, who played fantastically in 1984 and 1986, plus with his Verona exploits, should be probably rated a bit higher. Streltsov is a strange case, of course, who knows how high his real ceiling was, I don't even dare to imagine. Same with Deyna and Robson - they are comparable in their overall stance but if you thing that changing Deyna to Mata and Robson to Fellaini (exaggerating, but) would make Elkjaer shine brighter, I simply don't agree with you.
 
@Oaencha

I like the idea a lot. My main concern is Reuter as he's really an attacking full-back. I'd prefer someone more similar to Ivanovic for balance. The idea of having three playmakers is quite a good one although a less dominant DLP such as Carrick would have prevented an potential overlap between Guardiola and Netzer - the latter dropped very deep on occasions.
 
Netzer in a Pirlo-esque role would have been another interesting innovation.