Hargreaves vs. Carrick, Feadingseagulls vs. Noodle, Chief (Bayern Fan!) vs. Logic
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Taken from a thread in the General...
Plechazunga said:
Don't normally do just laughing smilies, but there are exceptions...except now that I've written all this it's not just a laughing smilie...doh!
7. He runs around in circles like a headless chicken.
I think that's debatable.
Mods, which is the longest ever thread discussing a particular player in the Cafe?
I must've imagined that 3-0 defeat to Arsenal in 98, The 4-1 defeat to Middlesbrough in 2004, the 3-0 defeat to Chelsea in 2006, the 5-0 defeat to Newcastle in 1996 and the 6-3 defeat to Southampton the week after then.
We're always more likely to win at home, that's an unavoidable fact. Winning a gtame away from home without your best centre back is always going to be much more difficult a task than winning a game at home, even with the same or similair personnel.
We lost to Milan two years previous in just as convincing a fashion the difference being Milan took their foot off the pedal knowing that the game was comfortably won.
All Carrick's fault. Where was he for Southampton's 6th, eh?
I take it you mean Champions League? Otherwise this claim is even more ludicrous than your "Zidane won the UEFA Cup with Bordeaux" and "Vidic was the lynchpin for the Spartak Moscow" efforts
1996 Spurs 4 United 1, Newcastle 5 United 0, Southampton 6 United 3
1998 Arse 3 United 0
1999 Chelsea 3 United 0 and Chelsea 5 United 0
2000 Newcastle 3 United 0
2001 United 0 Chelsea 3
2004 City 4 United 1, Boro 4 United 1
2006 Chelsea 3 United 0
EDIT: Interestingly with the exception of Milan, we've lost by 3 clear goals since Carrick joined.
The attempt to suggest we would have gone through against Milan if Hargreaves had played instead of Carrick is ludicrous. It completely overlooks the fact that our defence was decemated by injuries, we had run out of strikers and our squad was too small to undertake a treble challenge.
There is no evidence whatsoever that playing Hargeaves protects our defence any more than playing Carrick. You only have to look at the goals against column for matches that Hargreaves has played in for us to tell you that.
None of those were European matches. God alone knows what made you think I was talking about other types of matches. Or made you think I was saying we can never lose away from home
Getting anything in game where your midfield is not functioning at all or up to the task at hand is impossible. Even if you had all your key players present. Especially against a side like Milan
Due to a shit error by one useless Roy Carroll, in eth first leg and the damaging loss of an on form Giggs in the first half of the second leg. At a time he was ripping them to shreds.
In which game?Obviously. I don't remember games like the Barcelona one being domestic fixtures at any point in time.
Of course it is. I've been saying if Hargreaves had played ALONGSIDE Carrick we would have won through to the final, all along!
Those matches tell you nothing. In those games our strikers were either shit or men like Carrick, who were the more creative players in the side, failed to create a thing all game. Tough away performance like at Arsenal and Liverpool tell you better what Hargreaves brings to the side. If we had him in Milan alongside Carrick that night, I believe we could have forced at worst a draw. Even despite conceding due to errors from Vidic and Heinze. Because our midfielders like Scholes and Carrick would have provided the creative platform for Ronaldo, Rooney and Giggs to perform.
there's so much to pick apart there. Some madman will eventually do it.
Oh yes..it was an 8 year old Carrick's fault?
Thus states the Chief...
Why do we even bother arguing with him anyway?
It was just a few months ago that 'Chief' suggested we cancel Saha's contract and let him walk away for free - The very day before we received a £7 million bid for him. If that doesn't show how out of touch with footballing reality he is, nothing does.
It was just a few months ago that 'Chief' suggested we cancel Saha's contract and let him walk away for free - The very day before we received a £7 million bid for him. If that doesn't show how out of touch with footballing reality he is, nothing does.
Oh FFS
- We had no right back
- We were missing our best defender
- Our second best defender was clearly not fit
- Our defensive united had never played together before
- Our captain was missing
- Along with three other key players
- It was pissing down, which made it nearly impossible to play our game
- The team had been fighting all season for the title and were knackered
- We played one of the, if not the hardest match of the season, just days before hand
- All this, while Milan had had a relatively easy season
- Milan had been able to rest many key players, while at the same time we were playing all ours
These were the main reasons we got hammered, not because we didn't have Hargreaves.
So Hargreaves would have been able to stop Gattuso and Kaka ?!?!
Kinell, he must be good, it's just a shame that he's not been able to neutralise the likes of Jenas and Convey this season.
Wouldn't count on Mods for that
You are wrong. We got hammered because our midfield couldn't neutralise Gattuso. Who didn't finish the first leg. A leg which we won with every single problem you mentioned above present. Stop pretending that isn't the case makes no sense what soever. If we had neutralised Gattuso we would have made the final. It's that simple.Oh FFS
These were the main reasons we got hammered, not because we didn't have Hargreaves.
- We had no right back
- We were missing our best defender
- Our second best defender was clearly not fit
- Our defensive united had never played together before
- Our captain was missing
- Along with three other key players
- It was pissing down, which made it nearly impossible to play our game
- The team had been fighting all season for the title and were knackered
- We played one of the, if not the hardest match of the season, just days before hand
- All this, while Milan had had a relatively easy season
- Milan had been able to rest many key players, while at the same time we were playing all ours
He did it in two legs for Bayern in the quarter finals. Surrounded by much inferior talent at Bayern Munich to what we have at United. If you think he couldn't do the same in a United shirt, alongside Carrick you are truly deluded.
You really are clueless. He played well both against Spurs, very time his met them and against Reading. Your constant trying to claim other wise just shows how petty you really are.
You are reaching new lows in pettiness
Gattuso wasn't the driving force, he was the destroyer and he stopped our attacks. Kaka and Seedorf were the ones running rampant and causing all sorts of problems to our defense. So unless Hargreaves can go up and injure him, I doubt he would be effective against Gattuso if he wouldn't even have many opportunities to clash with him.
You are a lousy liar. You took what I said out of context, now you are trying to use your out of context statement in a bid to look clever, when you're anything but, in a bogus attempt to make me look bad. You are truly pathetic. You're one person well known to be out of touch with reality. Don't make me start on you and your infamous views and spastic episodes. You didn't get the tag "mcfeckwit" from thin air.So those reasons didn't make any difference, even though we were playing one of the best teams in the world ?
Didn't see the match, can't comment.
You said he was great, Noddle said he was shit. Although I very much doubt he'd be able to stop both Gattuso and Kaka
I was at the Reading match, he wasn't good, he was average. I can't remember the amount of times Convey and Harper got past him, and both have been awful this season, juts ask any Reading fan.
And again, he was average against Spurs, both time. He had moments of good play, but he also switched off at times, and allowed runners to get past him, actually, that's something he does an awful lot.
1. Gattuso was the one who stopped our midfield from functioning or getting near Kaka and Seedor due to his physical domination of the midfield. As a result Kaka and Seedorf had the absolute freedom to operate in our last third, directed by Pirlo in the quarter back role from deep. Meanwhile Ambrosini and the two full backs pushed forward, with the fullbacks crossing from deep, and not retreating, helping to out number Fletcher and Carrick whenever they didn't have the ball, pinning them further back against our back four, devoid of space to operate, trying to track Kaka, Seedorf and a striker who were receiving passes galore from the two fullbacks, Pirlo and Ambrosini. All because Gattuso kept wining the ball from them around our 18 yard box. Which precipitated tremendous pressure on our already make shift defence.
2. Hargreaves dealt with the physical threat of Gattuso and the runs of Kaka very well in both legs in the quater fnal of Bayern vs Milan. What he did to them alongside Van Bommel, in the the second leg for example, he could definitely have done to them alongside Carrick. I see no reason why not. Surely you noticed we beat Milan properly in the first leg when Gattuso departed from the pitch, with only Dida keeping them in the tie. Why couldn't we have forced a draw with them at the San Siro, or better, if we had a player like Hargreaves to neiutralise his phyical presence in midfield? On top of that player having the speed and experience to deal with a fellow like Kaka?
Has there ever been so much analysis on one game.
Do you deny the fact those same circumstance existed before the first leg, which we won?So those reasons didn't make any difference, even though we were playing one of the best teams in the world ?
I it doesn't matter if you doubt. If you didn't watch both legs. Don't make a single pronouncement on the issue. I hope that's fair enough for you
I don't have to bother. I watched that game over 3 times. None of what you said occurred. He was not average in that game in any shape or form.
In his first season in the premiership that isn't surprising. But you to sit here and claim he would fail do it in Europe, against folk like Gattuso and Kaka, in a competition he has played in for ages, were he stopped men like Figo and Zidane at their peak, when still a mere youngster is laughbale in deed.
None of those were European matches. God alone knows what made you think I was talking about other types of matches. Or made you think I was saying we can never lose away from home
Perhaps because you never stated you were talking about European games exclusively. I wasn't aware the league didn't matter when debating that it's tougher to win away from home than it is to win at home.
Getting anything in game where your midfield is not functioning at all or up to the task at hand is impossible. Even if you had all your key players present. Especially against a side like Milan
Time and time again our defence has been a shambles in the abscence of Ferdinand. The Milan game was no different and that counts both legs.
Due to a shit error by one useless Roy Carroll, in eth first leg and the damaging loss of an on form Giggs in the first half of the second leg. At a time he was ripping them to shreds.
Then we lost last years Milan tie because of ridiculous errors on the part of Heinze and Evra coupled with the loss of by far our best defender for both legs.
The game two years ago when Milan exposed us for the team of boys we were at that time.
..
For God's sake man we were at home. Are you really so blinkered that you can't realise that where a game is played has a huge bearing on the result of the game?
I didn't need to. It was pretty obvious. If you had been paying attention you'd have realised I had been talking about European football before you posted I wasn't about to start including domestic football in such a discussion. So it's your fault you missed that. No one else's
It's you who was debating that. I wasn't. That is why I said "So?". You were stating the obvious, which has never been basis for debate.
So? We still beat Milan with that shambles at the back at OT. Only because Gattuso didn't finish the match. If someone capable of dealing with him, had been there in the second leg. Milan would not have kicked us out. I insist
Not by a long shot. In both legs pressure was invited on to our weak defence by our midfield that constantly failed to deal with the threat of Kaka or the physical prowess of Gattuso. It no surprise our makes shift defence crumbled under even the slightest pressure exerted by the likes of Kaka and Seedorf.
Vs Milan in 2005 however Roy Caroll's error was his alone. No one else was to blame. On top of it being impossible for us to legislate for Giggs untimely injury, at time when he had even hit the post and was about to put us back in that tie in the second leg. A blow we never recovered from. Since he had been giving Scholes and Keane the space to operate in.
FFS Of course it has a bearing. So the feck what?
What gives you the fecking idea we were incapable of getting a point at the San Siro, if we had had the right midfield equipment present, to neutralise he that destroyed us? I'm dying to know?
That would be the Tevez thread, although it was before he actually joined us.
God the chief is just hilarious.
You lot are a bunch of fecking girls.
what about your Beckham/Hargreaves thread which was oh, so clever.
didn't last long, that shite.
FFS Of course it has a bearing. So the feck what?
What gives you the fecking idea we were incapable of getting a point at the San Siro, if we had had the right midfield equipment present, to neutralise he that destroyed us? I'm dying to know?
What do you mean so the feck what? You really are a little 'special' aren't you? You stated that we had the same hinderence before the first leg that we did before the second, I stated that being at home was probably a pretty good reason why we won the first leg. Had it been at the San Siro we would probably have lost that too.
I never said we were incapable. I said we were heavily disadvantaged due to missing our key defender and I believe that with a first choice defence we would've won the tie as we wouldn't have squandered our early lead at Old Trafford and also wouldn't have lost the early goal in the second leg that demoralised our team.
You're right it was the midfields fault Evra and Heinze ran into each other. Thank God you're here. I don't know why I didn't see it sooner. Perhaps Michael Carrick distracted the pair of them by offering to show them his shiny marble collection.
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