Grenfell Tower Fire | 14th June 2017

DenisIrwin said:
No. They arrange with me for a council inspector to view my flat from time to time and ask if I have any problems - to which I reply "Hell No! And thanks so much for housing me after being street-homeless for 6 months!". I am genuinely hugely grateful to have somewhere to come home to. I've been in this flat for a year and a half now and still it feels so good to hear the lock engage when I come home and close the door behind me. My sanctuary. Feels so good!
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That's really heart warming mate. I never see mine, but to be fair that's the way I like it, I pay my rent on time, keep myself to myself and get left alone.
 
DenisIrwin said:
No. They arrange with me for a council inspector to view my flat from time to time and ask if I have any problems - to which I reply "Hell No! And thanks so much for housing me after being street-homeless for 6 months!". I am genuinely hugely grateful to have somewhere to come home to. I've been in this flat for a year and a half now and still it feels so good to hear the lock engage when I come home and close the door behind me. My sanctuary. Feels so good!
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That is what i love about social housing.
 
DenisIrwin said:
I'm in a council flat. It was clad recently. I'm grateful for the effect on my energy bills. Don't know if it's fire-resistant or not. Doesn't matter too much as my block is only two stories high and I could jump without a problem if push came to shove. I've got nothing at all of any value anyway since my previous landlord took it all.
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Hope you don't mind me asking. How is that allowed?
 
11101 said:
It wasnt. For years tenants in council housing were complaining about the state of the blocks they were living in. The current drive to upgrade them is down to that as much as environmental considerations. Some were just knocked down like the godawful Heygate Estate, but most were refurbished.

I used to work with a few London area Housing Associations around financing for new blocks and so forth. The appeasing rich neighbours is nothing to do with it.
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The Heygate estate, where every flat in a recent sale went to foreign investors and the number of social housing units promised has been slashed
 
Four ministers were warned about tower block fire risks

Four separate government ministers were warned that fire regulations were not keeping people safe, in letters that have subsequently been seen by the BBC.

In the leaked letters, experts warn that those living in tower blocks like Grenfell Tower were "at risk".

At least 79 people are dead or missing presumed dead after the fire at the London high-rise last week.

The department that received the letters said work to improve regulation and safety had already been under way.

The letters show experts have been worried about fire safety in tower blocks for years.

Following a fatal fire in Lakanal House in south London in 2009, a series of recommendations were made to keep people safe.

They were ignored. The government promised a review of fire regulations in 2013, but it still has not happened.

BBC One's Panorama has obtained a dozen letters sent by the All-Party Parliamentary Fire Safety and Rescue Group.

Informed by experts, it warned the government it "could not afford to wait for another tragedy".

Four ministers - all from the Department for Communities and Local Government - received letters but did not strengthen the regulations.

Ronnie King, a former chief fire officer who sits on the group, says the government has ignored repeated warnings about tower block safety.

"We have spent four years saying 'Listen, we have got the evidence, we've provided you with the evidence, there is clear public opinion towards this, you ought to move on this'," said Mr King.

After six people were killed at Lakanal House in 2009, the coroner made a series of safety recommendations for the government to consider.

The government department promised a review in 2013, but it was soon delayed.

In March 2014, the parliamentary group wrote: "Surely… when you already have credible evidence to justify updating… the guidance… which will lead to saving of lives, you don't need to wait another three years in addition to the two already spent since the research findings were updated, in order to take action?

"As there are estimated to be another 4,000 older tower blocks in the UK, without automatic sprinkler protection, can we really afford to wait for another tragedy to occur before we amend this weakness?"

After further correspondence, Liberal Democrat MP Steven Williams - who was then a minister in the department - replied: "I have neither seen nor heard anything that would suggest that consideration of these specific potential changes is urgent and I am not willing to disrupt the work of this department by asking that these matters are brought forward."

The group replied to say they "were at a loss to understand, how you had concluded that credible and independent evidence, which had life safety implications, was NOT considered to be urgent".

"As a consequence the group wishes to point out to you that should a major fire tragedy, with loss of life, occur between now and 2017 in, for example, a residential care facility or a purpose built block of flats, where the matters which had been raised here, were found to be contributory to the outcome, then the group would be bound to bring this to others' attention."

The letters were written before the refurbishment of Grenfell Tower.

One went to the-then Communities and Local Government Secretary Eric Pickles, who received a letter about fire regulations from the parliamentary group in February 2014.

He had also been asked to look at fire safety in February 2013 and March 2013 by two separate coroners, investigating two tower block fires.

In December 2015, the all-party group wrote to Conservative MP James Wharton, another minister in the department at the time, and warned about the risk of fires spreading on the outside of buildings with cladding.

"Today's buildings have a much higher content of readily available combustible material. Examples are timber and polystyrene mixes in structure, cladding and insulation.

"This fire hazard results in many fires because adequate recommendations to developers simply do not exist. There is little or no requirement to mitigate external fire spread."

The last of the four ministers in the department to receive a letter was Gavin Barwell, who has since moved on to become Theresa May's top aide. He received his letter from the parliamentary group in September last year.

In November, Mr Barwell replied to say his department had been looking at the regulations, and would make a statement "in due course".

In April this year, Mr Barwell wrote to say he did "acknowledge that producing a statement on building regulations has taken longer than I had envisaged".

The fire safety group pointed out that it had been "given a similar response by three successive ministers since 2010" and it "is now time to listen to what the Fire Sector is saying".

The government has said there is still no timetable for a review.

The Department for Communities and Local Government said that a police investigation into the Grenfell Fire is already under way "but it will be some time before it is fully understood how the fire started or why it took hold in the way it did."

In a statement, it added: "The government has acted to improve fire regulation and safety, including the recommendations made by the Coroner following the Lakanal House Fire.

"The final recommendation concerned simplification of fire safety guidance, and this work was under way, with a consultation due to be published this summer.

"Fire safety requirements are complex issues and our priority has been that we have high standards. A great deal of work has been completed, including commissioning and undertaking research to support the planned consultation. Clearly, in light of this tragic event, we need to reflect on whether this consultation is the correct next step to take. We will confirm our approach shortly."

In a separate development, Panorama has discovered that firefighters put out the first fire at Grenfell Tower.

They were called to a fridge fire, and within minutes told residents the fire was out in the flat.

The crew was leaving the building when firefighters outside spotted flames rising up the side of the building.

The Fire Brigades Union say firefighters were left facing an unprecedented fire, and officers broke their own safety protocol to rescue people.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40330789
 
In a separate development, Panorama has discovered that firefighters put out the first fire at Grenfell Tower.

They were called to a fridge fire, and within minutes told residents the fire was out in the flat.

The crew was leaving the building when firefighters outside spotted flames rising up the side of the building.

The Fire Brigades Union say firefighters were left facing an unprecedented fire, and officers broke their own safety protocol to rescue people
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So we're back to the cladding, and whether the ''stay put' advice needs to be refined in some way. For as the report says, we've got 4,000 susceptible high-rises in this country right now, and they can't all be made safe overnight (even were the decision made tomorrow).
 
I just can't see how the death toll is not expected to raise significantly. Am I missing something? I've read estimates of between 400-600 occupants potentially living in the building. Where are they all?
 
Carlsen19 said:
I just can't see how the death toll is not expected to raise significantly. Am I missing something? I've read estimates of between 400-600 occupants potentially living in the building. Where are they all?
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I don't think those estimates are reliable to be honest.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
In March 2014, the parliamentary group wrote: "Surely… when you already have credible evidence to justify updating… the guidance… which will lead to saving of lives, you don't need to wait another three years in addition to the two already spent since the research findings were updated, in order to take action?

"As there are estimated to be another 4,000 older tower blocks in the UK, without automatic sprinkler protection, can we really afford to wait for another tragedy to occur before we amend this weakness?"

After further correspondence, Liberal Democrat MP Steven Williams - who was then a minister in the department - replied: "I have neither seen nor heard anything that would suggest that consideration of these specific potential changes is urgent and I am not willing to disrupt the work of this department by asking that these matters are brought forward."

The group replied to say they "were at a loss to understand, how you had concluded that credible and independent evidence, which had life safety implications, was NOT considered to be urgent".

"As a consequence the group wishes to point out to you that should a major fire tragedy, with loss of life, occur between now and 2017 in, for example, a residential care facility or a purpose built block of flats, where the matters which had been raised here, were found to be contributory to the outcome, then the group would be bound to bring this to others' attention."

The letters were written before the refurbishment of Grenfell Tower.
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This prick was my Bristol West MP before we bucked the trend in 2015 and voted him out with a 18.7% swing to Labour. Happy to report his vote has fallen from 26,593 (48.0%) in 2010 to 5,201 (7.3%) in 2017.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Because, quite simply, Corbyn's allusion to compulsory purchase orders misrepresented both their use and necessity in this situation. John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, admitted that such a course would have required an emergency session of parliament so as to allow for the passing of new laws.
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What would you do with the survivors?
 
Adisa said:
Hope you don't mind me asking. How is that allowed?
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It wasn't. Long story. He illegally evicted me and illegally took all my stuff. Because I owed him rent it is considered a "civil matter" so the police were no help. Lawyers I approached were unwilling to take my case due to the landlord being in a position to counter-claim over rent arrears and I can't get legal aid. No idea what has become of my stuff in the 2 years since I last saw it. Let's not take up any more of this thread with my woes though.
 
DenisIrwin said:
It wasn't. Long story. He illegally evicted me and illegally took all my stuff. Because I owed him rent it is considered a "civil matter" so the police were no help. Lawyers I approached were unwilling to take my case due to the landlord being in a position to counter-claim over rent arrears and I can't get legal aid. No idea what has become of my stuff in the 2 years since I last saw it. Let's not take up any more of this thread with my woes though.
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That's terrible. Anyway, I am glad you've got your own place now.
 
Carlsen19 said:
I just can't see how the death toll is not expected to raise significantly. Am I missing something? I've read estimates of between 400-600 occupants potentially living in the building. Where are they all?
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Unless they committed the crime and legged it, the likelihood is the news are misrepresenting the facts or in other words covering up the truth.
 
did anyone see the interview story about some people having gone back to the block - like, to live in it, in the few undamaged flats

must have been an apparent survivor I saw being spoken to - he said he had nowhere else to go

if there's been 140 families put into temporary housing - that's a reasonable number of people having got out but is still 100 flats short was my thinking
 
montpelier said:
did anyone see the interview story about some people having gone back to the block - like, to live in it, in the few undamaged flats

must have been an apparent survivor I saw being spoken to - he said he had nowhere else to go

if there's been 140 families put into temporary housing - that's a reasonable number of people having got out but is still 100 flats short was my thinking
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127 flats according to the BBC so i think you are over estimating. 6 flats on a normal floor.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40301289
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
So we're back to the cladding, and whether the ''stay put' advice needs to be refined in some way. For as the report says, we've got 4,000 susceptible high-rises in this country right now, and they can't all be made safe overnight (even were the decision made tomorrow).
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So do you think the removal of flamable cladding should be fast tracked or not? Nevermind other safety measures.

And no it obviously can't be 'done over night', but should be fast tracked or not? IE funds being allocated as soon as possible then going out to tender with appropriate safety standards and completion dates.

I think we both know this won't happen under the current government.
 
In the Mail there's a story quoting a guy who says a fireman he knows who was there told him that they found 42 bodies in one room.

Doesn't bear thinking about if true.
 
Dans said:
In the Mail there's a story quoting a guy who says a fireman he knows who was there told him that they found 42 bodies in one room.

Doesn't bear thinking about if true.
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Its nonsense.

He first claims he got told by a firefighter friend there were 42 bodies in a room. He then goes on to say he personally knows 42 families who are all Moroccan and all 42 families have died.

Is it just a coincidence that both figures happen to contain the number 42?
 
montpelier said:
my figures are nonsense then, I don't know where I got 140 rehoused families - I was only trying to make some sense of the alleged 600 residents when I remembered hearing it

good link, thanks - hadn't seen that
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It is entirely possible that 140 families have been rehoused, everyone in the surrounding low rise block that connects to the tower have been evacuated as well, because all their water comes from a tank underneath the tower itself. Not sure how many flats that effects, but its possible enough to make up the difference.

When talking of numbers, there is an interview with a guy who got out from the 15th floor. He talks of having to walk over bodies a lot of the way down.


 
Fergies Gum said:
Its nonsense.

He first claims he got told by a firefighter friend there were 42 bodies in a room. He then goes on to say he personally knows 42 families who are all Moroccan and all 42 families have died.

Is it just a coincidence that both figures happen to contain the number 42?
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I've seen the same video clip. The other strange thing he says is that there were "about 42" bodies. Which is a weird turn of phrase. There's been loads of rumours running wild in the area all week. So Chinese Whispers is in full effect.

But it's still possible that there really was a fireman who told someone about a very large number of bodies in a single room. It's also plausible. Lots of flats will have been overcrowded to begin with and people may well have piled into the flats of friends/neighbours in a desperate attempt to follow "stay put" advice after their own flat got too hot/smoky to stay inside.
 
'Over 170 years later, Britain remains a country that murders its poor. When four separate government ministers are warned that Grenfell and other high rises are a serious fire risk, then an inferno isn’t unfortunate. It is inevitable. Those dozens of Grenfell residents didn’t die: they were killed. What happened last week wasn’t a “terrible tragedy” or some other studio-sofa platitude: it was social murder.'

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/20/engels-britain-murders-poor-grenfell-tower
 
SteveJ said:
'Over 170 years later, Britain remains a country that murders its poor. When four separate government ministers are warned that Grenfell and other high rises are a serious fire risk, then an inferno isn’t unfortunate. It is inevitable. Those dozens of Grenfell residents didn’t die: they were killed. What happened last week wasn’t a “terrible tragedy” or some other studio-sofa platitude: it was social murder.'

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/20/engels-britain-murders-poor-grenfell-tower
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Seen this article and I agree with a lot of it. But, if it's murder, what's the motive?
 
Silva said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/19/world/europe/uk-grenfell-tower-london-fire.html

The New York Times has interviewed British fire safety experts who claim the cladding complied with regulation, even on such a tall building, meaning the politicians who claimed it was applied illegally were lying.
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Sky news asked the question at a trade event called Firex yesterday.

The answer that came back was that the use of the material isn't banned but it is only allowed subject to review of its safety in a particular design. In other words the rules offered an escape clause that allows the blame to get thrown around between budget managers, designers, contractors, individual installers, and the inspection system.
 
langster said:
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It pisses me off that everyone feels the need to say 'We're not blaming anyone'. Why aren't we blaming people? Some people made the conscious decision not to act and now lots of people have burned to death. Blame is well deserved.
 
SteveJ said:
'Over 170 years later, Britain remains a country that murders its poor. When four separate government ministers are warned that Grenfell and other high rises are a serious fire risk, then an inferno isn’t unfortunate. It is inevitable. Those dozens of Grenfell residents didn’t die: they were killed. What happened last week wasn’t a “terrible tragedy” or some other studio-sofa platitude: it was social murder.'

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/20/engels-britain-murders-poor-grenfell-tower
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Sensationalism at its finest
 
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