Because as long as they've met the shitty UK safety regulations they've done nothing wrong. This is what you get after decades of Tory Governments who choose the interests of the contractors over the civilians they govern.
Grenfell Tower Fire | 14th June 2017
- Thread starter Cheesy
- Start date
Because as long as they've met the shitty UK safety regulations they've done nothing wrong. This is what you get after decades of Tory Governments who choose the interests of the contractors over the civilians they govern.
You've got me intrigued now (partly because my house is externally insulated!)
Buzzfeed have an article on the cladding. They say it was ACM panels i.e. Aluminium panels with a polyethylene core. Which has a bad reputation for tower block fires. Apparently the orginally submitted plans was for a more fire resistant/expensive version.
Oh joy, 3-4 years they did the downstairs extension roof here, looking almost exactly like this, before they covered it over with a some thin layers of that rolled 'felt stuff'. It's legal I presume... (he asks anybody who might know)
Polyethylene and polystyrene are more ot less the same. Ones hard the other a foam. They're both the same family and have identical fire characteristics
Ok, makes sense. Beggars belief that this cladding could still pass building regs if it's so inflammable.
I read this yesterday on a construction industry web site:
Also:
http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2017/06/14/blaze-engulfs-refurbished-london-tower-block/
Interesting. That void must be what people have been referring to when they talk about "wind tunnels". I guess those "intumescent strips" (strips designed to swell/seal the void when they get hot?) either weren't fitted properly, or omitted altogether.
Not quite Rams, PS does not have to be expanded, that's just a manufacturing process that I'm assuming you could also do with polyeth but just wouldn't bother because it's more expensive. There are significant differences to the burn rates though as well as the smoke type, soot and flame colour.
I'd have suspected that but the speed of the fire spread suggests PS rather than PE, PET or PP as does the absence of a blue tinge to the flames since all the latter three burn blue whilst PS burns yellow. The smoke didn't necessarily look dense enough to have been PS though as that produces a very thick acrid black smoke and drops streamers of soot like black snowflakes which I can't say I saw in any of the footage.
Oh joy, 3-4 years they did the downstairs extension roof here, looking almost exactly like this, before they covered it over with a some thin layers of that rolled 'felt stuff'. It's legal I presume... (he asks anybody who might know)
What was the name of the panels? Was it 'FM approved' do you recall?
The are both Polymers and have the same highly combustible characteristics! It's all plastic.
Many things are polymers, it just means a chain of multiple molecular units so the term can include DNA, cellulose and a million other non petro chemical things.
The ones we are talking about are all petrochemicals but they are all extracted at different levels of the cracking process which gives them very different physical properties like density, tensile strength, elongation, creep and particularly melting points, burning points, the ability to sustain fire and more subtle points like flame colour, dripping, smoke type, smell etc and also determines the cost.
Death toll is now 17.
I was thinking about this last night, and then landed on it just being a bit of a logistical nightmare. For one, if the building is on fire like it is last night, how would you get such equipment close enough to the building without it setting on fire itself? Then of course, the thing would have to be gigantic both in width and in height - so to 'inflate' it or set-it up on the spot when there's a fire raging would be a big time consumer, and i doubt there is actually space for such a thing in most instances anyway.
Finally, say if both the above issues were solved somehow, there's the fact that you'd be asking firefighters or whoever to ask people to jump out of a building which, although is an attempt to save their lives, could go wrong in a whole bunch of ways, and could then lead to instances where you're blaming the emergency services for deaths, even though they're just trying to save lives.
It's either EPS (expandable polystyrene) or polyurethane.
https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmenvtra/741/9072004.htm
Some might find it interesting, a committee talking about cladding on buildings back in 1999...
Some might find it interesting, a committee talking about cladding on buildings back in 1999...
Couldn't say - only saw the job progressing (eventually) out of the back window. I'm 4th floor, they're 2nd.
Why on earth would it be OK to use a flammable substance to basically connect multiple dwellings? That is insane. We just had some work done and for code every hole that was drilled for wiring etc had to be filled in with fireproof foam to prevent fire spreading.
Like other organic compounds, polystyrene is flammable. Polystyrene is classified according to DIN4102 as a "B3" product, meaning highly flammable or "Easily Ignited." As a consequence, although it is an efficient insulator at low temperatures, its use is prohibited in any exposed installations in building construction if the material is not flame-retardant.[citation needed] It must be concealed behind drywall, sheet metal, or concrete.[citation needed] Foamed polystyrene plastic materials have been accidentally ignited and caused huge fires and losses, for example at the Düsseldorf International Airport and the Channel tunnel (where polystyrene was inside a railcar that caught fire).[citation needed]
Is form used at least...
The boards containing a flame retardant when tested in a tunnel using test method UL 723 or ASTM E84 will have a flame spread index of less than 25 and a smoke-developed index of less than 450. ICC-ES requires the use of a 15-minute thermal barrier when EPS boards are used inside of a building.
Like other organic compounds, polystyrene is flammable. Polystyrene is classified according to DIN4102 as a "B3" product, meaning highly flammable or "Easily Ignited." As a consequence, although it is an efficient insulator at low temperatures, its use is prohibited in any exposed installations in building construction if the material is not flame-retardant.[citation needed] It must be concealed behind drywall, sheet metal, or concrete.[citation needed] Foamed polystyrene plastic materials have been accidentally ignited and caused huge fires and losses, for example at the Düsseldorf International Airport and the Channel tunnel (where polystyrene was inside a railcar that caught fire).[citation needed]
Is form used at least...
The boards containing a flame retardant when tested in a tunnel using test method UL 723 or ASTM E84 will have a flame spread index of less than 25 and a smoke-developed index of less than 450. ICC-ES requires the use of a 15-minute thermal barrier when EPS boards are used inside of a building.
Theresa Maybot visited the site this morning but didn't speak to a single resident
Heads should roll for this it's an absolute disgrace.
What will probably happen is nothing as usual.
What will probably happen is nothing as usual.
Theresa Maybot visited the site this morning but didn't speak to a single resident
Disgraceful. Incredible that someone who is so incompetent at/scared of any sort of challenging human interaction ended up leading the country. She's taken ivory tower politics to a whole new level.
Looks like there are a hell of a lot of buildings worldwide with this type of cladding
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...e-high-rise-blaze-also-used-in-grenfell-tower
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...e-high-rise-blaze-also-used-in-grenfell-tower
You, as a resident have to know about the existence of a TMO. Their management is usually elected by the residents. If so, there will have to be notes in the communal areas like for cleaning, social activities, meeting etc.
If you have any complaints about the TMO, just revert to the council directly.
That is quite interesting. Knowsley is Knowsley Heights Fire 1991 - didn't see much on that from a very quick google. But then got to a pdf which features this
(paragraph says that current measures are sufficient) then goes on...
You weren't telling people to 'stay put' back then though were you? (I don't actually know this). Combined with access routes during refurbishments being limited even more - if you're not really bothering about the possible need to evacuate because policy is different now.
TMOs are generally significantly smaller than Housing Associations so in theory give tennants more of a say in how things are done on their estate. That said, the small size might be a hindrance on the level of professionalism of management.
Don't think so. There're thousands of council tenants who sublet their flats. The first two flats I've rented when I came to London where from council tenants. We've had to move out from the second flat because the council found out that he is renting it, he is still there one year after.
Residents from the flats in the New Lodge area of Belfast are shittin themselves, because two of the 7 tower blocks were recently renovated and covered in the cladding. The Housing Executive is 'looking into it' and assures people that the cladding has met with all the relevant fire safety protocols, but one resident has told Beltel this morning that the layer underneath the cladding is plywood!
we're on the ALMO side from what I can tell now, council may still be the destination I think - as for them, but y'see how well that went,
again, it didn't go well for them did it? valid concerns just binned off because their 'input' was regarded as having no value - & probably 'unhelpful'
Don't you dare politicise her political visit.Theresa Maybot visited the site this morning but didn't speak to a single resident
(resident tories, am I doing it right?)
Not all heroes wear capes.
Just been emailed by a friend of mine who lives right beside Grenfell. They're currently putting up 15 kids/babies with their families (fair fecking play!). Apparently all the support centres are overrun with food/clothes but what these people will really need to get their lives back on track is money. This is the Justgiving page they said we should be using.
As you can see, there's been a phenomenal response already. When it wants to be, London is an incredible city. Obviously, the closer they can get to that target the better. So more donations needed.
As you can see, there's been a phenomenal response already. When it wants to be, London is an incredible city. Obviously, the closer they can get to that target the better. So more donations needed.
If this stuff really is used everywhere, how many vulnerable buildings are there?
Quite possibly the internal structure of the building and not having active fire supression was the final reason these people had no chance of escaping, but it really could be that there are hundred of similar buildings. Makes me sick
There are a few of these up and running so i understand, and i am trying to decide which one is best. Often with crowdfunding you are giving to an individual or something relatively specific, whereas in this instance there are 100s of likely recipients, with contrasting needs.
As for London, or Londoners rather, i think we are like most other people despite the reputation. Not always the most chatty during rush hour perhaps, but as compassionate as people elsewhere.
What risks are posed by such cladding with regard to fire safety? said:
Do you think it is right that should be allowed to be the case? said:
(they go on talking about firefighting)6. What is wrong with the Regulations? said:
8. You mentioned all these risks and as I understand your answer to Mr Donohoe you are not satisfied that the Regulations governing the fire safety of cladding is adequate? said:
9. Could you perhaps tell the Committee so we can get a feel of it just how rapidly does this fire spread? How many incidents are we talking about? Are we talking about a minimal risk or are we talking about something that does occur or may occur regularly? said:
11. What would you be recommending to us as to what should be done to minimise the risks you have indicated? said:
13. Are you happy with them? said:
14. In aircraft now because of the toxic fumes that killed so many people in Manchester within a very short period of time there are very strict Regulations on the internal as well as the external materials. Are you really saying to us that in buildings said:
15. Yet there is a wealth of evidence in aviation alone of the effect of toxic fumes. People started to die in Manchester within six seconds. said:
16. They do know the properties of the materials being used? said:
17. If that draft becomes a reality what does it mean in real terms? said:
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Plywood was used in the cladding for the Shepherd's Bush fire last year and, unsurprisingly, contributed to its spread once the foam covering had melted away.
Has to be BS surely?Theresa Maybot visited the site this morning but didn't speak to a single resident
Fears hundreds may be dead.
Feck off!
Feck off!
Nope, she turned up for a private photo op with the firefighters then buggered off.
Couldn't even muster the courage and dignity to speak to those affected.