Also what I've noticed here, people and media seem to think it was a much less serious than it was. News about it is buried somewhere behind numerous political events and some don't even report this anymore when terrorist attacks recently have got full coverage for several days after they happened. I hope not, but it's likely death toll will reach a very significant number here, seeing as many people have been unaccounted for for more than 24 hours already.
Grenfell Tower Fire | 14th June 2017
- Thread starter Cheesy
- Start date
Also what I've noticed here, people and media seem to think it was a much less serious than it was. News about it is buried somewhere behind numerous political events and some don't even report this anymore when terrorist attacks recently have got full coverage for several days after they happened. I hope not, but it's likely death toll will reach a very significant number here, seeing as many people have been unaccounted for for more than 24 hours already.
It's par for the course in Britain these days. If you ain't rich you don't matter. I moved into a brand new housing association apartment two years ago next month, the list of shoddy problems includes, repeated flooding toilet and waste coming up the plug hole, sewage eventually seeping up through the living room floor, mould in three rooms, poor ventilation unless you want a window open with a big enough gap for an adult to climb through, flooding, uneven floors, poorly fitted doors, poorly laid car park, poorly fitted kitchen, exterior doors so poorly fitted there wasn't even enough clearance to lay thin vinyl flooring. The front main fire door couldn't be closed for six months as it wouldn't open again! When I demanded an answer about if they just picked the cheapest firm regardless of quality and reputation or if their backhander was simply too big to ignore I was ignored. These days we just don't matter unless it's to line the pockets of the wealthy further. Sadly in this case it's lead to the wholesale destruction of innocent families, rip
Heard some expert on the radio yesterday saying that if sprinklers were installed this never would have happened. He also criticised the 'stay put' advice given to residents (it was implemented so that firefighters wouldn't be blocked from getting to a fire if people were running downstairs and UK building regs on PIR insulation as they only state that the front face have fire resistant properties. When it is used in cladding it is stood up on the thin bottom side this causes obvious problems.
It's par for the course in Britain these days. If you ain't rich you don't matter. I moved into a brand new housing association apartment two years ago next month, the list of shoddy problems includes, repeated flooding toilet and waste coming up the plug hole, sewage eventually seeping up through the living room floor, mould in three rooms, poor ventilation unless you want a window open with a big enough gap for an adult to climb through, flooding, uneven floors, poorly fitted doors, poorly laid car park, poorly fitted kitchen, exterior doors so poorly fitted there wasn't even enough clearance to lay thin vinyl flooring. The front main fire door couldn't be closed for six months as it wouldn't open again! When I demanded an answer about if they just picked the cheapest firm regardless of quality and reputation or if their backhander was simply too big to ignore I was ignored. These days we just don't matter unless it's to line the pockets of the wealthy further. Sadly in this case it's lead to the wholesale destruction of innocent families, rip
We had that one - caused by the Housing Association entirely - when I queried what they had done, they just blatantly lied to me about the Fire Safety issue.
What you describe is completely familiar except that we are an old block where they just keep finding work to do & then bollocks up & then not care.
My unit hasn't been built yet. Needless to say we will be seeking assurances about the cladding being used.
Tragic incident, thoughts go out to all those who lost a close one or still are missing, must be the worst feeling right now.
They tried to do us with some kind of the cladding thing too. The only responses we had were 'not sure the building is of the type' and 'this is a completely unnecessary & fecking stupid idea that will achieve next to nothing' but was apparently (serious here) regarded as a valuable weapon against global warming - reducing heating bills etc etc, 'essential thermal insulation'. But seems like lots of other even more unsuitable buildings got done with it, innit?
Before / after photo (just cropped out whose project this is down the corner)
Another point with pros & cons - but tall buildings used to fairly frequently have external staircase fire escapes as additional & alternative routes out of the place.
My speculation again - they went away as an idea (for admittedly obvious reasons) & this doomed to fail eventually stay put in your flat & wait for help to arrive policy got brought in.
Before / after photo (just cropped out whose project this is down the corner)
Another point with pros & cons - but tall buildings used to fairly frequently have external staircase fire escapes as additional & alternative routes out of the place.
My speculation again - they went away as an idea (for admittedly obvious reasons) & this doomed to fail eventually stay put in your flat & wait for help to arrive policy got brought in.
Statement this morning that no further survivors are expected
Its disgusting the way tenants are treated, Ive never caused a problem and pay may rent on time every time and we are made to feel like an inconvenience rather than a valued customer
Thats awful newsStatement this morning that no further survivors are expected
They will have to go from flat to flat, searching absolutely everywhere. What a terrible task.Thats awful news
I just hope it was the smoke, not the fire that got them. Still unpleasant but not as haunting.
That one on the right does look much nicer. I assume there is a way for the cladding to be done properly.They tried to do us with some kind of the cladding thing too. The only responses we had were 'not sure the building is of the type' and 'this is a completely unnecessary & fecking stupid idea that will achieve next to nothing' but was apparently (serious here) regarded as a valuable weapon against global warming - reducing heating bills etc etc, 'essential thermal insulation'. But seems like lots of other even more unsuitable buildings got done with it, innit?
Before / after photo (just cropped out whose project this is down the corner)
Another point with pros & cons - but tall buildings used to fairly frequently have external staircase fire escapes as additional & alternative routes out of the place.
My speculation again - they went away as an idea (for admittedly obvious reasons) & this doomed to fail eventually stay put in your flat & wait for help to arrive policy got brought in.
I cant even imagine how awful that is going to be. This whole event is a tragedy.They will have to go from flat to flat, searching absolutely everywhere. What a terrible task.
They tried to do us with some kind of the cladding thing too. The only responses we had were 'not sure the building is of the type' and 'this is a completely unnecessary & fecking stupid idea that will achieve next to nothing' but was apparently (serious here) regarded as a valuable weapon against global warming - reducing heating bills etc etc, 'essential thermal insulation'. But seems like lots of other even more unsuitable buildings got done with it, innit?
Before / after photo (just cropped out whose project this is down the corner)
Another point with pros & cons - but tall buildings used to fairly frequently have external staircase fire escapes as additional & alternative routes out of the place.
My speculation again - they went away as an idea (for admittedly obvious reasons) & this doomed to fail eventually stay put in your flat & wait for help to arrive policy got brought in.
I'm not an expert, and I know we have a couple on here who are so it's probably best left to them, but are those things necessarily untrue? Seems to me that cladding can have those benefits and as long as you don't literally make it out of fecking petrol or whatever they did in this case then it's not a safety risk?
I just hope it was the smoke, not the fire that got them. Still unpleasant but not as haunting.
Looking at how ablaze the building was I think that's unlikely for a fair few sadly.
Can't think of a worse job than going through that building now to account for people lost to the fire
it'll stick with those firefighters forever.Even if you avoid the smoke and flames the surrounding temperatures will be in the hundreds I imagine.
Looking at how ablaze the building was I think that's unlikely for a fair few sadly.
Can't think of a worse job than going through that building now to account for people lost to the fire
I feel sick just at the thought of it, looking at the list of missing there's so many kids & siblings, pregnant women, grandparents - just some of the most vulnerable in society, apparently the council housed a wheelchair bound man to the 17th floor ffs!
I can't imagine the horrors they'll see, smell, touch ugh.
Major tragedy for poor people under the conservatives watch? How long until a Tory MP blames the victims?
I feel sick just at the thought of it, looking at the list of missing there's so many kids & siblings, pregnant women, grandparents - just some of the most vulnerable in society, apparently the council housed a wheelchair bound man to the 17th floor ffs!
I can't imagine the horrors they'll see, smell, touch ugh.
You've got to be kidding me
Sadly not unusual
I'm so angry and upset that this has happened. I saw something that a parent was escaping with 6 of their kids and only came down with four of them. That just broke my heart.
The environmental benefits are true and would probably tick more green point boxes with planners making it easier to push the budget through for the works as something that will pay for itself in the long run. The problem comes in what they are made of and how they are fabricated. You want panels to be light weight for ease of installation, lack of stresses on the building and generally because insulation consists of lighter void rich materials as the air trapped inside is a poor conductor of heat. The insulation material can consist of expanded polystyrene, mineral materials like rock wool, polyurethane or polypropylene foam or even asbestos although nobody would dare nowadays. Obviously some of those are petrochemical byproducts and will sustain and even accelerate a fire, retardants can be used on them to make them less flammable but generally the approach is to seal them within the panels so the fire can't get at them in the first place.
That's all fine if you know where the fire is coming from and I would bet these panels had test reports showing that a blowtorch aimed at the centre of the panel for 30 minutes failed to create a sustained ignition. If however the insulation were not sealed on the other side a fire from a source inside the building might be carried within the insulation and spread far more rapidly than it ever could without the panels. It often comes down to detailing and fixing but unfortunately many contractors think they've ticked the fire safe box just by having a piece of paper saying it passed a test without necessarily understanding whether that test was in any way relevant to their application.
I wish I was
Yeah, there's so many heartbreaking stories but that was the one that got me the most, that trauma is unimaginable.
It's difficult to accommodate so that all people in wheelchairs live on ground level floors.
From what's been reported so far, it's partly about the materials and partly about the process.
The materials used whilst they have some surface fire protection are actually flammable. The process of adding skins can leave gaps that can behave like a wind tunnel in a fire, effectively trapping the fire in the insulation behind the new skin and giving it routes to travel.
If the theories about what made it spread are accurate then a lot of buildings will need to be looked at again.
I don't think you have to be an expert to take either side or offer a view. And there's some truth in what you're hinting at there.
But then I'd go straight to saying but... for the benefits of your £10 M, botch job, knowing it'll be a botch job, six months disruption, knowing you have no say / comeback. The units are small & heat-able anyway... theory & practice just seems miles apart. You could do better for less money, safer - but not as pretty.
They used feckin ppc cladding in the facade... that is absolutely disgusting. I cannot overstate how feckin irresponsible that is. The council have clearly chosen saving money over the safety people's lives. The people in charge should be brought to justice.
Many don't want to as they see that as discrimination, I personally find it hard to buy at times, the first time I encountered it was at Uni where one of the techs in the architecture department refused to accept an office on the ground floor insisting he should be on the 4th floor with all the other techs and that separating him was discrimination. They gave in to him and had to issue separate evacuation procedures where 2 of his colleagues would have to carry him down 4 flights of stairs with zero though of others trying to evacuate around him. If PC gone mad had been a phrase at the time we'd have used it.
The gaps are fine, as long as they sealed AND YOU DONT USE POLYSTYRENE AS INSULATION!!!!
As a mother myself, I can't imagine what people are going through. I broke down hearing that, you have the hope that you and your kids have made it out safely just to find out two of your kids are still stuck in the building. Life is so fecking cruelI wish I was
Yeah, there's so many heartbreaking stories but that was the one that got me the most, that trauma is unimaginable.
Excuse my ignorance but what is ppc cladding? Is it safe to use? Did it attribute to the spreading of the fire?
Yeah I've had a similar experience.
I work in the insurance industry as a property insurance broker and I can assure you that all builders and councils no God damn well what materials are used in the buildings they build and that Polystyrene is highly highly flammable. In other words, the council and contractors are already lying through their teeth in order to save their own backsides!
Yes. PPC is polystyrene. It's highly flammable and the insurance companies' worst nightmare!
Where did you find out about that? And what is ppc cladding?
Google gives the impression it's "Polyester Powder Coating", which would be just the very outer surface of the cladding. Is that known to be particularly flammable?
Jesus. I remember my nans house had polystyrene tiling on the living room ceiling and my dad who used to be a builder had removed it because of the fire safety aspect of the material. This was 20 years ago. Why the feck would anyone use polystyrene cladding
I can see it in the pictures. That bubbly burnt black stuff on the burnt out facade is polystyrene.
We used to set polystyrene on fire as kids and it was flammable. I wouldn't like stuff anywhere near my house.
My Nanna had it in her kitchen, yep the kitchen.