Boris was great to watch but big Pete is still the best for me.
Greatest mens tennis player of all time
- Thread starter Raoul
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Boris was great to watch but big Pete is still the best for me.
The Croat has a name and different nationality.
Had he accepted UK citizenship at the start of his career, quite sure that GOAT talk would have been settled long ago.
Many tennis fans cannot accept an Eastern European towering over "their" Western sport.
One argument for Federer is that he peaked in his mid/late 20's. The moment he was past his physical prime he had to contend with the other two GOATS in their physical prime. This could also explain Federer's comeback in his mid 30's, I guess?
But of course: Nadal and Djokovic deserve credit for having their breakthrough 1-2 years earlier than Federer and reaching a very high level quickly enough for Federer to be able to not hoard slams.
In a way, the 80s were a great era in tennis. No dominant champions and far more intrigue and competition. You never knew who was going to win which slam, which made things a hell of a lot more interesting. 17 year olds like Becker, Wilander, and Chang were showing up out of nowhere and winning slams. Fun times.
I've just retired from the tennis thread. Djokovic. The Serb* is the best.
*I hope he is.
good points fit after seeing all 3 over the last 15-20-ish years (since Fed came onto the scene) I don’t have the slightest doubt in my mind Djokovic is the best of the three.
a bit older but Lendl and Edberg were very good too. You know far more about tennis than I do, but like you I did enjoy that era. Even bought Lendl tennis shirts!
Nadal and Djokovic may have won a slam earlier in their careers than Federer did but I wouldn't go so far as to say they broke through earlier. Nadal, I think, beat Federer on Hard in Miami in 2005 but in my eyes, I don't think he really broke through on Hard/Grass until 2007/2008. Djokovic won the AO in 2008 but went off the boil for a while so hard to say he had made much of a break-through until 2011.
I tend to agree with you that a lot of Federer's prime came in the years before Nadal and Djokovic broke through, and Federer was not quite at his peak when Djokovic was at his peak (And to some extent when Nadal was at his peak, although the argument is not as strong here). But the main argument I would make is that traditionally, players fell off the cliff after hitting 30, and that you would naturally expect that the players most able to compete after the age of 30 would be those who are technically gifted than physically gifted.
Agreed that by all clear metrics Djokivic is the best.
But while the mind acknowledges that, the heart will always say Fed. His peak was - as a tennis player - exactly what tennis should look like. And he basically went to every major semi final for what felt like a decade. That's insane.
Finally, I hate Djokovics tactic with his toss. I refuse to believe it's anything other than gamesmanship and would drive me utterly insane as a returner.
But while the mind acknowledges that, the heart will always say Fed. His peak was - as a tennis player - exactly what tennis should look like. And he basically went to every major semi final for what felt like a decade. That's insane.
Finally, I hate Djokovics tactic with his toss. I refuse to believe it's anything other than gamesmanship and would drive me utterly insane as a returner.
I agree Federer is the best *tennis player of all time. Djokovic is the best player of all time.
not only that, but also the changes with the tournaments are rarely taken into consideration. for example, Australian Open was grass court tournament until the late 80's and in past it didn't have fixed timing like today, when it's always played in january. it was perfectly normal for AO to be played sometimes in december, sometimes in march, sometimes in august etc. there are clear differences between AO Djokovic is winning and the ones Laver was winning.
Forget that fact that no one overly cared about the AO until Federer really. It was either skipped relentlessly or the tune up slam. If Borg took all 4 seriously... even up to 26, he'd have more than 11. Same with Connors, in his true 5 year peak.... he skipped the AO/French 8 times between them - he reached the final in all but one occasion when he did show in that 5 year span.
The Croat really is a monster. Only player to have a positive score against The Serb.
There's a strong case for Djokovic now but I get people preferring Federer at their best there isn't much difference between the two. At this point I think Nadal has fallen behind them but still probably the best clay player and one of the best overall.
Am I missing a joke here?
Djokovic may be the best technical player ever. Nadal the best specialist by a huge margin. Federer the best in totality.
All I know is that they should rename FO to Rafa Nadal Open.
Of that era, my favourite was Stefan Edberg's serve-and-volley play.
Djok will end up with the most slams when it’s all said and done. However, he’s a dick so feck him.
Also, I think the Fed Nadal rivalry really took tennis to the next level both in terms of athleticism and viewership.
Also, I think the Fed Nadal rivalry really took tennis to the next level both in terms of athleticism and viewership.
Yeah, but it's a poor one. Stealing The Croat/The Serb confusion from previous posts to make it about aces record holder who also has 2-1 against Nole in career.
No way, Federer will go by way of Sampras. Phenomenal player, but Nadal overtook him some time back only to be usurped by Djokovic. Federer is #3 all time for me.
Agreed, and ultimately when there is some degree of debate, a lot of people are going to naturally gravitate towards the player they like the most or most enjoyed watching, which will likely be Fed. Djokovic could of course put all of these issues to bed this year if he wins the grand slam.
That's a good way to summarize it and it's a shame Federer isn't 5/4 years younger to keep competing with them.
casual tennis fan here,
Becker, Edberg, McEnroe, Sampras, Agassi, Djokovic, Federer and Nadal the best I've watched...
The best of the best? I'll go for Federer.
Made it look so easy.
Becker, Edberg, McEnroe, Sampras, Agassi, Djokovic, Federer and Nadal the best I've watched...
The best of the best? I'll go for Federer.
Made it look so easy.
Casual yet speaking like a true pro.
As I mentioned in another thread; Federer is the most artistic, Nadal the most athletic, Djokovic the most intelligent.
As for GOATs debates in any field, I find them more of a media thing or mererly a reflection of human passion for ranking, than being rigourous logic or science
1) You can't capture art with numbers; and art does matter, probably more than stats (e,g Maradona)
2) You can't compare different eras
3) Even for the stats part, you'd need a more complex objective model than the ridiculous single stat of winning Grand Slams in Tennis, or World Cups in football; why not the ATP finals for example, where you face the top 8, or the Champions league, or national league?!
As for GOATs debates in any field, I find them more of a media thing or mererly a reflection of human passion for ranking, than being rigourous logic or science
1) You can't capture art with numbers; and art does matter, probably more than stats (e,g Maradona)
2) You can't compare different eras
3) Even for the stats part, you'd need a more complex objective model than the ridiculous single stat of winning Grand Slams in Tennis, or World Cups in football; why not the ATP finals for example, where you face the top 8, or the Champions league, or national league?!
"It seems it's all about Grand Slam titles nowadays and I don't like that," Federer said in Halle.
“I just wanted to break Pete's record. I always said everything that comes after 15 titles was a bonus."
Not sure he had the same viewpoint when he was ahead in the Grand Slams tbh.
“I just wanted to break Pete's record. I always said everything that comes after 15 titles was a bonus."
Not sure he had the same viewpoint when he was ahead in the Grand Slams tbh.
Yeah, Feds not overly happy about it. It’s been obvious for a while, well since Novak did everything he could plus a bit more really.... he could hold off Nadal on the basis on Nadal’s legacy being heavily clay-centric.
He loved it at the top - something others didn’t - Borg, Mcenroe etc. Novak’s never truly had to deal with that fame, or Nadal(though bigger than Novak) really... because Fed as the celeb absolutely trumped them.
And now Nadal’s doing what his fanbase has been crushing Fed for doing with clay ... “listening to his body” and skipping the slam he has no chance at, wheres Novak gonna start skipping
He loved it at the top - something others didn’t - Borg, Mcenroe etc. Novak’s never truly had to deal with that fame, or Nadal(though bigger than Novak) really... because Fed as the celeb absolutely trumped them.
And now Nadal’s doing what his fanbase has been crushing Fed for doing with clay ... “listening to his body” and skipping the slam he has no chance at, wheres Novak gonna start skipping
The internet and social media are largely responsible for the stupefying of Tennis (and all sports as well) with their Messi v Ronaldo style debates, which have subsequently made their way into Tennis and made the sport appear all about slams and nothing else. So in a way, Fed would be spot on since there is progressively less attention payed to most of the other non-slam ATP events.
He's been skipping master events recently, think over the next 2-3 years he will start to skip a few more events and concentrate more on slams only. Actually think he alluded to that earlier this year?Yeah, Feds not overly happy about it. It’s been obvious for a while, well since Novak did everything he could plus a bit more really.... he could hold off Nadal on the basis on Nadal’s legacy being heavily clay-centric.
He loved it at the top - something others didn’t - Borg, Mcenroe etc. Novak’s never truly had to deal with that fame, or Nadal(though bigger than Novak) really... because Fed as the celeb absolutely trumped them.
And now Nadal’s doing what his fanbase has been crushing Fed for doing with clay ... “listening to his body” and skipping the slam he has no chance at, wheres Novak gonna start skipping
No one really cares about anyone skipping Masters events really. People skip them at their peak fitness forget mid 30’s.
My favrouite part is how upset Federer and his fans are about the whole situation. They never saw it coming 10 years ago
No idea that you're talking about. His retirement?My favrouite part is how upset Federer and his fans are about the whole situation. They never saw it coming 10 years ago
Each to their own but Nadal will always be number 3 for me
that’s no bad thing either, but Nadal’s slam haul for example is so lopsided with his FO wins, he’s never dominated the other 3 Grand Slams like Fed or Djokovic, but we will never in our lifetime see a better clay court player again, not imo atleast, I’d be shocked if we did
Federer will have his GS haul beaten by the other 2, and in truth Djokovic on paper will be viewed as the GOAT, his stats back it up
but there’s a reason most public polls still have Fed as number 1, at their best, Federer’s style wins by some distance, there’s nothing like peak Federer style, pure tennis porn
love the life out of Peak Djokovic and Nadal, spectacular to watch and jaw dropping
but Federer at peak Levels was god worthy, and I’m an atheist
Yes but none of those players were anywhere near as good as the big three
My favrouite part is how upset Federer and his fans are about the whole situation. They never saw it coming 10 years ago
I’m a Federer fan and I’m not upset about it.
The big three didn't exist then - a good thing that ultimately made the 80s more interesting.
It’s a made up narrative from none Fed fans
Yep.