Greatest individual player World Cup of all time?

[KeanoMagicHat]

Messi's 2022 World Cup has to be one of the best in history given his performances, statistics (he beat several records in the process) all the circumstances surrounding Argentina (trophyless for 36 years in the World Cup BEFORE Messi was even born) and the enormous pressure he was playing under (now or never to culminate his only missing trophy to become the GOAT, the lost 2014 World Cup final back of his mind etc.).

Talking about the records that Messi broke. Just a small overview of them:

https://www.si.com/fannation/soccer...-records-broken-by-lionel-messi-at-qatar-2022

https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/footba...t-lionel-messis-world-cup-records_502281.html

The list is endless.

All that while being freaking 35.5 years old and far from his physical prime. It is scary to think about how good he would have been in this World Cup had he had his old pace.

Numerous iconic moments as well in particular those insane 2 assists against the Netherlands and Croatia. Controlling games practically from the start to the beginning with few exceptions such as the first game against Saudi Arabia. Only player in World Cup history to score in the group stage, round of 16, quarterfinals, semifinals and final. If not for the missed PK against arguably one of the best goalkeepers this World Cup (Poland's goalkeeper, I won't bother correctly spelling his name) he would have scored in every single World Cup game.

I honestly doubt that we will ever see a better performance from a 35.5 year old player.

And for all the Maradona 1986 (failed to score in the final, the goal scored with his hand against England - Argentina could have easily have lost that game from what I saw on YouTube when I watched that game), it has been overblown a bit due to nostalgia and time. He was phenomenal but so was Kempes 8 years prior and Messi this time around. Which is why we saw tons of old Argentina fans (who saw all 3 wins in action and all 3 players) who were quick to proclaim Messi as the GOAT.

Messi is an alien basically. There are not enough superlatives to describe him and what he was done for football in the past 15 years.

A fitting photo for the occasion:



EDIT: Another crucial point. Football in 2022 and the teams that Argentina and Messi were competing against are/were far superior to the lot that Maradona was playing against in freaking 1986. Anyone that tries to argue otherwise is simply stuck in time and nostalgia. With VAR around in 1986, Maradona would never have won the World Cup to begin with and he would have received a red card against England before he scored his insane solo goal. BTW, Messi scored an almost carbon copy of that goal in 2008 against Getafe in a Copa del Rey semifinal game. One of the many uncanny similarities between Messi and Maradona. What a story.

I would add also his goal against Mexico in the group stages. Easy to forget that Argentina were in big trouble in the group, at 0-0 a late goal to Mexico and they were pretty much out. They had been playing shite all game and then Messi scores a brilliant goal from nowhere. It was only then that they settled down and started playing.

Having said that, there’s no need to downplay Maradona’s 1986 World Cup. It’s still better than what Messi did here. The difference is that it’s all Maradona can hang to for being better than Messi. Messi can now point to an almost as good World Cup, to go with a far superior club career.

 

[Oranges038]

He was good but he had one of the best goalkeepers of all time behind him, who made one of the best saves ever in the final otherwise he wouldn’t have been remembered the same way. Buffon was second to Cannavaro in the Ballon d’Or that year, so he was far from alone for Italy’s defensive record.

Yeap, Buffon was top class.

But there's a reason Cannavaro won player of the tournament and world player of the year. He was pure class.

 

[Doracle]

Maradona 86, Baggio 94 and Zidane 06 are the ones I consider the best. A real shame two of them ended as they did. Mbappe 22 a bit below those three.

 

[Oranges038]

If there was VAR in 1986, games would have been abandoned with all those players getting sent off with fouls on Maradona.

If there was proper drug testing in 1986 Maradona probably isn't on the pitch to get fouled.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

That's a good point.

Very different eras as well. Penalties are thrown around like confetti now compared to 86. Argentina very reliant on pens this tournament that they simply wouldn't have been awarded in 86.

I'm sure Pele probably deserves a mention here also as does Ronaldo in 98. Baggio 94.

Yeah it's hard to compare. Maradona in '86 is probably the highest a footballer has ever peaked, but it's hard to compare eras.

Pele's WC in '70 is actually pretty similar to Messi in some regard.

It was his swansong WC and he was excellent despite being a clearly diminished player relatively compared to 5-7 years ago. It's like Messi himself. He was a much better player 5-10 years ago, but everything came together for him at the WC finally.

I do think Pele was superb in '58 though and comparable to '70 as far as WC performances. This was Messi's best WC by far and he expelled a lot of naysayers with his performances.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

It's still Maradona and it's not even close.

I know this thread was made on back of messi's wonderful performances and I gotta say his ranks quite highly.

Top 5 perhaps?

Certainly can argue for it being top 5.

He was genuinely excellent and skeptics can point to the pens, but you still have to convert them.

 

[Josh 76]

If there was proper drug testing in 1986 Maradona probably isn't on the pitch to get fouled.

He wasn’t taking performance enhancing drugs, it was recreational drugs. Imagine what a player he would have been if he lived his life like Messi! There would only be a debate about the 2nd GOAT!

 

[harms]

I'm not sure about great team. Cruyff criticised the team and hoped they don't win the World Cup cos he wasn't sure they were a good team.

Cruyff: “I said at the start of the tournament that I did not like this Brazilian team, and I still say that. It would be really bad for football if Brazil won with such poor play, because this team is imitated throughout the world. I am not going to say that France will win, because Brazil are a strong team, but my hope is for the sake of football, because the play produced by Zagallo’s team is really poor.”

This has less to do with that team’s objective strength and more to do with what Cruyff saw as strengths and weaknesses in football teams. From Cruyff’s point of view it wasn’t a great team because it relied in individual skill way more than on any system. It’s the same as with Lobanovsky’s critique of Ronaldo which sounds insane when you look at it in isolation.

 

[Oranges038]

He wasn’t taking performance enhancing drugs, it was recreational drugs. Imagine what a player he would have been if he lived his life like Messi! There would only be a debate about the 2nd GOAT!

I don't disagree. He basically played most of his peak years with one good ankle and a drug problem.

But, cocaine was just his main recreational drug of choice. He became addicted to all sorts of painkillers and other stuff from after he got his ankle broke to get him through games.

 

[Joeyfromtheblock]

R9 in 2002 World Cup.

8 Goals in 7 Matches and i dont know if even 1 was a Penalty. He also had the injuries already and became a different Player but still performed.

We also don't know what happened before the 98 Final with Ronaldo. Maybe Food Poisoning or an Allergic reaction but he wasnt himself on the Pitch.

 

[Vialli_92]

For me:

1. Maradona 86: At his peak. Definition of unplayable.
2. Messi 22: At end of his career, provided the genius for an industrious Argentina side.
3. Baggio 94: Carried Italy only to fall at the final hurdle. Was not voted player of the tournament.
4. Ronaldo 02: Goals galore. Redemption for 98 and relief for return from a potentially career ending injury. Kahn was voted player of the tournament.
5. Rossi 82: Goals.

A very good list, I think Baggio and Messi can easily swap positions and can't disagree either way. It's a shame Baggio ended that way although he was totally unfit for that final. He should have never started with his injury.

 

[That_Bloke]

Schillachi always sticks in my head for world cup performances, probably because Italia 90 is the first one I remember. He was awesome in it. Turns out out he had done nothing before it and did nothing after but for that one world cup he was the man. Obviously not better than Maradona in 86, Pele in 70, Messi this world cup but still.

Toto Schillaaaachi!

To this day I still remember his goal against Uruguay and one of his shots hitting the crossbar against I don't know anymore.

Yeah, never heard of him again after the WC.

 

[Isafim]

I think that Eusébio's individual performance in the 1966 World Cup could be one of, if not the best in history. He scored 9 goals and 1 assist in 6 games. He had the highest sofascore score in the history of the cups since 66. He had a shooting average (on goal) of 11.0 (5.2). What do you think?

 

[That_Bloke]

Germany "stifled" Maradona by throwing every body they had at him, all the time, and cutting him down whenever he got a bit of space. He still consistently opened them up and was at the heart of the game in a way Messi wasn't yesterday. Messi does have the goals which Maradona didn't have vs 1 assist, but otherwise Messi was both freer than Diego and generally less involved. One key difference for Messi compared to past WC with Argentina was how much more of a forward he was this time - rather than constantly going to the ball he waited for it higher up

Matthäus did an outstanding job on Maradona in that horrible final but the latter already was on the downward path back then. A far cry from 1986. He also had massive problems with his ankle tbf.

 

[That_Bloke]

i remember Thuram had a great tournament, but wasnt Zidane the one who made the biggest mark from that french squad?

great post by the way.

Zidane didn't really do anything of note in the WC 1998 until the final where he scored his two and only goals, aside from stupidly getting himself sent off against Saudi Arabia in the group stage.

His best tournament was the Euro 2000 where he absolutely was head and shoulders above everyone. And the WC 2006, before getting sent off. Again.

 

[The Cat]

Maradona in '86 is unparalleled. This WC from Messi probably ranks in the top 5. Right around Pelé's 1970

That sounds about right.

 

[Passitlikescholes]

Firstly, at no point have I stated that Messi’s 22 is equal to Maradona’s 86. It isn't but is the next best thing since than. And it wasn't plain sailing. They started with a loss to Saudi Arabia, almost blew it vs Netherlands and France in the closing stages of the game only to come through. Messi provided some of the most memorable moments in the tournament. This was Messi’s world cup.

Maradona at Italia 90 was way below his best; the only good moment was the assist vs Brazil.

I never said you were equating it on the same level.

I said that excuses were being made for Messi and Maradona wasn't being provided the same benefit, ie you said Messi wasn't at his peak, so it isn't fair to compare 22 to 86 but forgetting the fact that Messi had an opportunity to stamp his peak in 10 and 14 but failed to do so.

Take the loss against Saudi Arabia, seriously Saudi Arabia??? That was hardship for Messi and Argentina? They blew that match themselves (they should have been up 4 or 5 nil at half time if not for the several offsides) against a team who finished bottom of the group.

Or whatabout the game vs Croatia, where that was more about the rest of his team rather than Messi.

Or what happens if Benzema, Pogba and Kante aren't ruled out with injury? Or that a virus had passed through the French squad

Theres even others, in this thread, claiming that today's teams are far superior to what Maradona played against in 86, completely ignoring that there are legendary names from that generation (platini, zico, francescoli, barnes, etc) and that they are legendary names because they were the best of that generation. The only real difference, to today, is the sports science in preparing players from a physical perspective, those players back then had immense talent, with the same training techniques of today, they'd still be great players.

Hence I think people are really downplaying how talented Diego actually was, that in an era where there are genuine legends of the game, his name stood out above them and other teams (in 86) knew this so much they targeted him every game and he still came out on top.

 

[tothetop96]

People are totally overrating Messi's performances. He was good to very good at a stretch. That's all. 3 goals from play and 3 assists in 7 matches.

I've noticed people for a while now have been overrating Messi and Ronaldo performances (not as much anymore I suppose), it's almost like they WANT to feel like they're witnessing something UNBELIEVABLE

Di Maria definitely played better in the final imo but no one is talking about how amazing he is because it doesn't feel like they're witnessing history when they see him.

 

[Hughes35]

Lets not pretend that Messi this tournament had one of the greatest ever please.

Yes, he had a good WC and was / is a great player. Widely agreed the GOAT, but that doesn't mean every good game he has is the greatest ever.

Messi wasn't even the best player at this WC, let alone in any world cup ever. He won the player the the tournament because he Messi, and they won the thing..... And that's why before the tournament started, I put a bet on him winning the award. If they won the WC, he was guaranteed the golden ball.

Mbappe was the best player at this world cup, lets not kid ourselves.

 

[the_cliff]

Lets not pretend that Messi this tournament had one of the greatest ever please.

Yes, he had a good WC and was / is a great player. Widely agreed the GOAT, but that doesn't mean every good game he has is the greatest ever.

Messi wasn't even the best player at this WC, let alone in any world cup ever. He won the player the the tournament because he Messi, and they won the thing..... And that's why before the tournament started, I put a bet on him winning the award. If they won the WC, he was guaranteed the golden ball.

Mbappe was the best player at this world cup, lets not kid ourselves.

Disagree completely. Argentina would be out of the group stages without him. France have one of the most stacked teams, even with all of their injuries. Mbappe was also poor against England and poor against Morocco. Messi was important and in the top 2 performers of the game in every match in this world cup.

 

[Shark]

People are totally overrating Messi's performances. He was good to very good at a stretch. That's all. 3 goals from play and 3 assists in 7 matches.

I've noticed people for a while now have been overrating Messi and Ronaldo performances (not as much anymore I suppose), it's almost like they WANT to feel like they're witnessing something UNBELIEVABLE

Di Maria definitely played better in the final imo but no one is talking about how amazing he is because it doesn't feel like they're witnessing history when they see him.

The difference is that Messi is the reason Argentina won the cup. Not only because of his ability but leadership.

 

[Doracle]

R9 in 2002 World Cup.

8 Goals in 7 Matches and i dont know if even 1 was a Penalty. He also had the injuries already and became a different Player but still performed.

We also don't know what happened before the 98 Final with Ronaldo. Maybe Food Poisoning or an Allergic reaction but he wasnt himself on the Pitch.

I was thinking of this one earlier. It feels a similar performance to Messi here, although Ronaldo’s was a bit better in my view (Ronaldo dominated the final whereas Di Maria was Argentina’s MOTM this time around). Very good and a key player for the eventual winners but not quite up there with the very best WC performances.

 

[Doracle]

The difference is that Messi is the reason Argentina won the cup. Not only because of his ability but leadership.

That’s a good example of overrating him. He’s an iconic figure and very popular with the team, but he’s not a strong leader. He was non-existent when they were falling apart in the QF and directly responsible for France’s first equaliser in the final when they needed control.

 

[Lord SInister]

That’s a good example of overrating him. He’s an iconic figure and very popular with the team, but he’s not a strong leader. He was non-existent when they were falling apart in the QF and directly responsible for France’s first equaliser in the final when they needed control.

Did we watched the same QF? I think you equate leadership with someone doing Roy's of rovers stuff, taking the ball on his own and scoring a hat-trick(which is something happens rarely, even Maradona couldn't manage them every game). Leadership is more about the mentality. If anything that Netherlands game was the most expressive Messi we have seen in years. If Messi wasn't a leader that match, no-one is a leader in football.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Lets not pretend that Messi this tournament had one of the greatest ever please.

Yes, he had a good WC and was / is a great player. Widely agreed the GOAT, but that doesn't mean every good game he has is the greatest ever.

Messi wasn't even the best player at this WC, let alone in any world cup ever. He won the player the the tournament because he Messi, and they won the thing..... And that's why before the tournament started, I put a bet on him winning the award. If they won the WC, he was guaranteed the golden ball.

Mbappe was the best player at this world cup, lets not kid ourselves.

No chance. Mbappe was great but he wasn't good in the quarter, semis and 75 minutes of the final. Messi was man of the match in most games he played, scored in all knockout rounds and was excellent throughout the final (barring 10 minutes when Argentina were ratted). So yeah of course he was the best player at WC 2022. The whole Messi always gets undeserving awards is so 2020 and stale.

I understand his 22 WC not being number 1 for many. But he had a terrific tournament. That he did at the age of 35 is mindbloggling.

 

[Lord SInister]

No chance. Mbappe was great but he wasn't good in the quarter, semis and 75 minutes of the final. Messi was man of the match in most games he played, scored in all knockout rounds and was excellent throughout the final (barring 10 minutes when Argentina were ratted). So yeah of course he was the best player at WC 2022. The whole Messi always gets undeserving awards is so 2020 and stale.

I understand his 22 WC not being number 1 for many. But he had a terrific tournament. That he did at the age of 35 is mindbloggling.

Wait for few months, revisionist will start claiming that Messi wasn't even the best Argentine player of 2022 World Cup. Di Maria and Emi Martinez were.

 

[berbatrick]

I understand calling di Maria being MotM if it ended 2-0 (I'm pretty sure I posted something like that around the 60th minute). With the way it ended, it has to be Mbappe and/or Messi. I think messi was most impressive in the time between 2-2 and penalties: he created a lot of chances with his passing, and of course scored.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Messi did drift in and out of games this World Cup, it wasn’t the all encompassing playmaking maestro he was in the past, he picked his moments.

 

[Righteous Steps]

I understand calling di Maria being MotM if it ended 2-0 (I'm pretty sure I posted something like that around the 60th minute). With the way it ended, it has to be Mbappe and/or Messi. I think messi was most impressive in the time between 2-2 and penalties: he created a lot of chances with his passing, and of course scored.

Di Maria was the best player till he left the pitch.

 

[berbatrick]

Di Maria was the best player till he left the pitch.

Yes, and he left halfway through the match, and missed the most important/high-pressure parts of it.

 

[r1z3mu]

Wait for few months, revisionist will start claiming that Messi wasn't even the best Argentine player of 2022 World Cup. Di Maria and Emi Martinez were.

Just imagine if De Gea was goalie instead of Emi Maritnez.

 

[FrankFoot]

He wasn’t taking performance enhancing drugs, it was recreational drugs. Imagine what a player he would have been if he lived his life like Messi! There would only be a debate about the 2nd GOAT!

This, people forget that Maradona was consuming cocaine already since he played for Barcelona, his addiction only got worse later, and he was already an ex footballer by 32.

Imagine Maradona being as professional as Messi, with all his ridiculous talent, the debate would be for the 2nd place.

 

[PepG]

Zidane 2006. Yeah i know he didnt win the title at the end and it was sad end of his career but individually to this day this is the best performance i have ever seen at the World Cup..

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/world-cup-comparisons/johan-cruyff-1974/

Here's a statistical collection of every player from the 66 to 2018 Cups. Just looking through some again, and Ronaldinho's 2006 looks better than i expected it to be.

 

[mshnsh]

Lets not pretend that Messi this tournament had one of the greatest ever please.

Yes, he had a good WC and was / is a great player. Widely agreed the GOAT, but that doesn't mean every good game he has is the greatest ever.

Messi wasn't even the best player at this WC, let alone in any world cup ever. He won the player the the tournament because he Messi, and they won the thing..... And that's why before the tournament started, I put a bet on him winning the award. If they won the WC, he was guaranteed the golden ball.

Mbappe was the best player at this world cup, lets not kid ourselves.

Mbappe wasn't even the best French player upto the 80th minute of the world cup let alone player of the tournament.

Zidane 2006. Yeah i know he didnt win the title at the end and it was sad end of his career but individually to this day this is the best performance i have ever seen at the World Cup..

He had one great game vs Brazil fullstop. Infact there were calls to drop him earlier in the wc. The most overrated player of his generation.

This, people forget that Maradona was consuming cocaine already since he played for Barcelona, his addiction only got worse later, and he was already an ex footballer by 32.

Imagine Maradona being as professional as Messi, with all his ridiculous talent, the debate would be for the 2nd place.

Messi and Maradona interms of talent are equals. The former has a better career, the later an out of this world tournament in Mexico.

 

[Jev]

I'd be hard pressed to find a better player this WC, influenced every single game of the tournament.

Narrowly missed out on the Golden Boot because of brain dead defending (giving away 2 penalties to Mbappe) because Argentina can't manage a game.

Find a player that controlled a game the way Messi did, I don't think I've seen that level in a world cup since Ronaldo in 98-02

To be clear I think he was the best player of this World Cup (and is by far the best player in modern times) but I also don't think he was head and shoulders above Mbappé/Griezmann, and you'd probably have to be head and shoulders above your peers to have been the best ever at a World Cup.

 

[Stack]

I think there's a clear top 3 which runs:

1. Maradona 1986
2. Garrincha 1962
3. Cruyff 1974

Each stand out because of the volume of chances they created, the number of players they skinned, the times they were fouled, and the central talismanic role they played for their team. After that there's a bit of a gap for me and I'd probably tier them:

• Didi/Pele 1958, Eusebio 1966, Pele 1970, Kempes 1978, Matthaus 1990, Romario/Baggio 1994, Ronaldo/Rivaldo 2002, Cannavaro/Zidane 2006, Messi/Mbappe 2022
• Kopa/Fontaine 1958, Charlton 1966, Moore/Muller 1970, Beckenbauer 1974, Rensenbrink 1978, Scirea/Zico 1982, Baresi/Maradona 1990, Stoichkov/Hagi 1994, Ronaldo/Thuram 1998, Ballack 2002, Xavi/Iniesta/Forlan 2010, Robben/Rodriguez/Messi 2014, Modric 2018

All since we had full footage from the late 1950s. Might be one or two others who should be included. It's quite hard to split when you start comparing across positions as well.

Great list. Would Paolo Rossi from 82 fit in that somewhere?

 

[mshnsh]

People are totally overrating Messi's performances. He was good to very good at a stretch. That's all. 3 goals from play and 3 assists in 7 matches.

I've noticed people for a while now have been overrating Messi and Ronaldo performances (not as much anymore I suppose), it's almost like they WANT to feel like they're witnessing something UNBELIEVABLE

Di Maria definitely played better in the final imo but no one is talking about how amazing he is because it doesn't feel like they're witnessing history when they see him.

I feel like alot of people on this forum are salty and probably watched this world cup through gritted teeth. Messi had 5 motm awards in 7 matches ffs. Without him Argentina don't win the WC.

 

[mshnsh]

Messi did drift in and out of games this World Cup, it wasn’t the all encompassing playmaking maestro he was in the past, he picked his moments.

Adjusting to aging. For him to play high intensity, high pressure games every 3 days was always going to be difficult if he tried to play the way he used to. This was a crowning moment of a glorious career. His last dance.

 

[The Cat]

Great list. Would Paolo Rossi from 82 fit in that somewhere?

Any love either for Toto Schillaci? Not suggesting he is anywhere near the upper levels but I remember him having a hell of an impact in 1990.