Greatest individual player World Cup of all time?

[Irwin99]

Messi scored 7 this tournament but I think around 4 were penalties? Think Maradona still edges it, and I’d say Mbappe too (who scored 2 overall)?

Messi did get three assists though and I think, reached the same G+A total as Maradona (both on 10)

 

[Passitlikescholes]

There's a lot of revisionism going on to elevate Messi for some reason.

As others have stated, Messi scored a whole bunch of penalties, add that they beat Australia, Poland, Mexico, Croatia (who I wouldn't really classify as world beaters compared to some of the great teams of the past), add that France had Benzema, Pogba and Kante missing who likely would've had a great impact on the final.

Basically Messi had everything fall in his favour.

The argument that it's not a 'fair comparison' because Maradona was at his peak and Messi was 35, well Messi had his peak to stamp his mark on the previous world cups he played in but simply put he didn't, but yet this is given as an excuse to beat down Maradona's achievement and elevate Messi

Now compare that Maradona in 86. There were 0 hopes on that Argentinian side, Diego was written off after 82, came back from a broken ankle, up against strong teams in 86

Drew with Italy (82 winners) in group stages, beat Uruguay (Copa America champions in 87), beat England, beat Belgium, and then beat a stacked West German side in the final with a delightful one touch, incision pass for the winner.

There's no comparison.

 

[giorno]

I was referring to Ronaldo 2002. In 1998, you could actually argue for Rivaldo being Brazils best player, just as in 2002. I remember watching the QF vs Denmark and the commentator saying something to that effect as well.

Poster I originally replied to was talking about '98. And no, Rivaldo was in no way, shape or form Brazil's best player in '98. Not arguable at all

I think you are underrating Messi’s 2022. This Argentina team is nowhere near Brazil of 1998 and they had to rely so many times on Messi to provide something special.

True, so? Messi had moments of magic within good performances. Ronaldo was a constant force of nature

The assists vs Netherlands and Croatia are amongst the best I've ever seen at the world cup. The guy was voted motm 5 times which is more than any other player ever.

Sure, I agree. Though MOTM is a recent addition, first introduced for the '98 final iirc

 

[Arruda]

To put Eusebio into context, Portugal was losing 3-0 to NK in the quarter finals. Both teams were at their first WC. 4 of Eusebio's 9 goals in the tournament were in this game, neatly turning it around. Cracking player.

 

[FrankFoot]

Poster I originally replied to was talking about '98. And no, Rivaldo was in no way, shape or form Brazil's best player in '98. Not arguable at all


True, so? Messi had moments of magic within good performances. Ronaldo was a constant force of nature


Sure, I agree. Though MOTM is a recent addition, first introduced for the '98 final iirc

That goes without mentioning that Brazil 98 faced stronger teams that what Argentina 2002 faced till the final.

 

[Invictus]

The Top 3—5 have already been mentioned by others, and I'd largely agree with some of those rankings. Shoutout to Gerd Müller, though — who delivered a devasting masterclass in goalscoring during the 1970 World Cup. Scored the winner vs. Morocco in the opening match, three goals in the dismantling of Bulgaria, all three goals vs. Peru, the winning goal in extra time vs. England, and two goals (in extra time) to level the scores vs. Italy. 10 goals (only one penalty) and 3 assists with 14 key passes and a completion percentage of 85% in 5 matches leading up to the semi-final elimination. And three of these teams boasted outstanding defenders too, so he wasn't simply annihilating cannon fodder: Peru with Héctor Chumpitaz (voted best defender by the South American Football Confederation in 1969 and 1971), England with Bobby Moore (who produced one of the greatest individual performances in tournament history in 1970 and finished 2nd in the Ballon d'Or), and Italy with Tarcisio Burgnich and Giacinto Facchetti (two veterans of Catenaccio). In a World Cup where Gérson, Pelé, Jairzinho, Cubillas, Riva, Alberto and the likes produced historically significant performances, Müller was the highest rated player according to Castrol's ratings...

Spoiler: Gerd Müller 1970, Rating= 9.86/10

Considered to be one of the great FIFA World Cup Finals™, Mexico ‘70 produced the most attacking football of any World Cup since 1966 with nearly three goals per game and a shot less than every three minutes. However, while it was the star-studded Brazil side that would ultimately lift the trophy, it was West Germany’s Gerd Muller who would produce the best individual performances. Indeed, as well as netting a Golden Shoe-winning 10 goals, the hitman also provided three assists. That involvement in 13 goals remains the best-ever figure in any single Finals since 1966. The Top Five of the Castrol Index is dominated by attackers, with Pele, Luigi Riva and Uwe Seeler joined by the attacking midfielder Jairzinho, only the second player to have scored in every match on the way to winning the FIFA World Cup™. The superb performances of Jairzinho, along with Muller, mean that Pele has to make do with the final place on the podium. Many remember Pele's misses including his header that Banks saved superbly, his near miss from the halfway line and his dummy before shooting wide. All contributed to a conversion rate of just 15%, the lowest of the Top Three. Despite playing their part in a classic final, Italy only manage to get two players in the Top 20, with Alessandro Mazzola, in 14th, joining striker Luigi Riva. Scorer of Brazil’s superb fourth goal in the final, Carlos Alberto takes 15th place while England’s Bobby Moore, famed for his iconic tackle on Pele, is in 23rd place.

Greatest overall players in World Cup history...

• Pelé.
• Diego Maradona, bonus for the highest and most dominant peak.
• Ronaldo Luís ~ Franz Beckenbauer. In case Kaiser's ranking is semi-controversial: Bronze Boot with 5 goals and Best Young Player with phenomenal midfield displays in 1966 for the finalists (where he and eventual Golden Ball and Ballon d'or winner Charlton neutralized each other, for the most part), Team of the Tournament inductee for the semi-finalists in 1970 (memorably soldiering on with a dislocated shoulder in a grueling affair vs. Italy that went to the wire), and thwarted Cruyff's totaalbvoetbaling juggernaut in the ultimate battle-of-greats in 1974 (where he won the Silver Ball). Magnificent in every World Cup that he participated in, and you could see his progression as a strategist and leader with every passing edition.
• Lionel Messi.

Honorable mentions: Lothar Matthäus, Marcos Cafú, Zinédine Zidane, Giuseppe Meazza, Bobby Moore, Garrincha, Miroslav Klose, Franco Baresi et cetera.

 

[mshnsh]

Poster I originally replied to was talking about '98. And no, Rivaldo was in no way, shape or form Brazil's best player in '98. Not arguable at all


True, so? Messi had moments of magic within good performances. Ronaldo was a constant force of nature


Sure, I agree. Though MOTM is a recent addition, first introduced for the '98 final iirc

Ok. Other than perhaps the semifinals vs Netherlands, which Ronaldo performance from France 98 was memorable? I personally don't recall any other at all. He scored 2 vs Chile (a penalty and a fairly simple one but other than the goals wasn't great), he was good vs Scotland (group) he had decent game vs Denmark (QF) and Morocco (group). Yes he had a good world cup but its an exaggeration to say he was a force of nature.

There's a lot of revisionism going on to elevate Messi for some reason.

As others have stated, Messi scored a whole bunch of penalties, add that they beat Australia, Poland, Mexico, Croatia (who I wouldn't really classify as world beaters compared to some of the great teams of the past), add that France had Benzema, Pogba and Kante missing who likely would've had a great impact on the final.

Basically Messi had everything fall in his favour.

The argument that it's not a 'fair comparison' because Maradona was at his peak and Messi was 35, well Messi had his peak to stamp his mark on the previous world cups he played in but simply put he didn't, but yet this is given as an excuse to beat down Maradona's achievement and elevate Messi

Now compare that Maradona in 86. There were 0 hopes on that Argentinian side, Diego was written off after 82, came back from a broken ankle, up against strong teams in 86

Drew with Italy (82 winners) in group stages, beat Uruguay (Copa America champions in 87), beat England, beat Belgium, and then beat a stacked West German side in the final with a delightful one touch, incision pass for the winner.

There's no comparison.

I agree that Maradona 86 > Messi 22. But just think about what Messi did when 99% of players at that age are finished and hanging on or humbly retired and consider what he could have done with the right manager at his peak when he was actually surrounded by better players? Surely peak Messi > 35 year old Messi. For me Argentina wasted a multigenerational talent until this world cup. Maradona as manager in 2010 was a complete disaster.

That goes without mentioning that Brazil 98 faced stronger teams that what Argentina 2002 faced till the final.

Which stronger teams other than Netherlands in the semi in which they were outplayed and maybe France in the final which they lost?

Other than Messi and the keeper, non of the Argentina players get into a Brazil side full of superstars and experienced players.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Maradona without a question.

2nd best though is worth for discussion. Should be Pele overall.

Well maybe 3rd best is worth for a discussion.

 

[giorno]

Ok. Other than perhaps the semifinals vs Netherlands, which Ronaldo performance from France 98 was memorable? I personally don't recall any other at all. He scored 2 vs Chile (a penalty and a fairly simple one but other than the goals wasn't great), he was good vs Scotland (group) he had decent game vs Denmark (QF) and Morocco (group). Yes he had a good world cup but its an exaggeration to say he was a force of nature.

Scotland, Morocco and Chile were all basically one-man shows. Of course Brazil had other great players as well, who could exploit of all the gaping wounds Ronaldo's sorties or sheer gravity left behind, but really, the Denmark game was the only one were Brazil was more than "just give it to Ronaldo", and Rivaldo was actually their best player that game. Iirc. I'm starting to doubt my memory of that world cup....

 

[ROFLUTION]

I think there's a clear top 3 which runs:

1. Maradona 1986
2. Garrincha 1962
3. Cruyff 1974

Each stand out because of the volume of chances they created, the number of players they skinned, the times they were fouled, and the central talismanic role they played for their team. After that there's a bit of a gap for me and I'd probably tier them:

• Didi/Pele 1958, Eusebio 1966, Pele 1970, Kempes 1978, Matthaus 1990, Romario/Baggio 1994, Ronaldo/Rivaldo 2002, Cannavaro/Zidane 2006, Messi/Mbappe 2022
• Kopa/Fontaine 1958, Charlton 1966, Moore/Muller 1970, Beckenbauer 1974, Rensenbrink 1978, Scirea/Zico 1982, Baresi/Maradona 1990, Stoichkov/Hagi 1994, Ronaldo/Thuram 1998, Ballack 2002, Xavi/Iniesta/Forlan 2010, Robben/Rodriguez/Messi 2014, Modric 2018

All since we had full footage from the late 1950s. Might be one or two others who should be included. It's quite hard to split when you start comparing across positions as well.

i remember Thuram had a great tournament, but wasnt Zidane the one who made the biggest mark from that french squad?

great post by the way.

 

[Jev]

I wasn't born in 1986 but I saw a TWENTY minute YouTube highlights video of Maradona's World Cup the other day and it was ridiculous. It was more impressive than most five minutes highlights videos based on a whole career.

I think you could argue that Messi wasn't even the best player of this World Cup so it's probably a few places down the list. From my lifetime and memory I'd probably have Zidane 98 and the Ronaldo 2002 just ahead.

 

[B20]

Zidane really wasn't all that in 98

 

[TheNewEra]

I don't think that will ever be beaten in a tournament at all.

You wonder sometimes about the level of defending but I genuinely fear when you have someone that good the teams are scared and don't know what to do with him.

He would be double and triple marked these days but he would still have found a way since that was his prime, can't compete with it.

If you could bottle that form and have a player do that for 10-15 years then that player is undeniably the GOAT imo.

I only have him as number 3 in my books because he didn't have the longevity others did, if you just take the prime years he's top though.

 

[Passitlikescholes]

I agree that Maradona 86 > Messi 22. But just think about what Messi did when 99% of players at that age are finished and hanging on or humbly retired and consider what he could have done with the right manager at his peak when he was actually surrounded by better players? Surely peak Messi > 35 year old Messi. For me Argentina wasted a multigenerational talent until this world cup. Maradona as manager in 2010 was a complete disaster

Again read my post in that Maradona had a lot of things going against him in 86 and he still overcame it all.

In 1990 Argentina didn't deserve to be in the final but yet they still made it there and almost won it, with Diego playing most of the tournament with a balloon for an ankle.

In 1994, Maradona was suspended for a substance that is now legal, and that derailed Argentina's run. That very much could have been another world cup for Maradona, as that was the strongest Argentinian squad he played with.

He overcame overcame overcame. This world cup Messi needed things to fall in his favour

Really there's no comparison to what Maradona achieved in 86

 

[TheNewEra]

I wasn't born in 1986 but I saw a TWENTY minute YouTube highlights video of Maradona's World Cup the other day and it was ridiculous. It was more impressive than most five minutes highlights videos based on a whole career.

I think you could argue that Messi wasn't even the best player of this World Cup so it's probably a few places down the list. From my lifetime and memory I'd probably have Zidane 98 and the Ronaldo 2002 just ahead.

I'd be hard pressed to find a better player this WC, influenced every single game of the tournament.

Narrowly missed out on the Golden Boot because of brain dead defending (giving away 2 penalties to Mbappe) because Argentina can't manage a game.

Find a player that controlled a game the way Messi did, I don't think I've seen that level in a world cup since Ronaldo in 98-02

 

[harms]

I would have loved to see Just Fontaine. Scoring 13 goals in 6 games (scoring against any team he played), despite the low quality of football back then, looks still crazy. No one came ever close to that.

And, funnily enough, he was neither the best nor the best performing (by most accounts) player on his own team. Which makes you wonder just how outstanding Kopa was — in that tournament and in general.

 

[NewGlory]

Maradona. Nobody else is even close.

 

[TheNewEra]

Again read my post in that Maradona had a lot of things going against him in 86 and he still overcame it all.

In 1990 Argentina didn't deserve to be in the final but yet they still made it there and almost won it, with Diego playing most of the tournament with a balloon for an ankle.

In 1994, Maradona was suspended for a substance that is now legal, and that derailed Argentina's run. That very much could have been another world cup for Maradona, as that was the strongest Argentinian squad he played with.

He overcame overcame overcame. This world cup Messi needed things to fall in his favour

Really there's no comparison to what Maradona achieved in 86

I think its a weird narrative honestly, Maradonas sides were good teams.

I don't think Messi needed things in his favour, they beat the Netherlands (not easy to play at all) and France in a final. You play more games in a WC than you used to too.

Maradona is unparalleled for sure, its not even a debate but I think a 35 year old Messi doing what he did in this WC was fecking crazy.

It's not a 24 or 28 year old prime Messi. IMO 2010 was the peak Messi in terms of dribbling and speed, and that insanely talented team was managed by Diego Maradona who was a god awful manager, build a team around Messi with.

The 2010 side could have had Riquelme but he fell out with Maradona before the tournament.

Imagine, Messi, Tevez, Riquelme, Cambiasso, Aguero, Di Maria, Mascherano, Samuel in the same side. It's a shame that side wasn't managed well.

I think falling in favour isn't true considering the shit management the Argentina NT had in his actual prime years.

 

[Passitlikescholes]

Again read my post in that Maradona had a lot of things going against him in 86 and he still overcame it all.

In 1990 Argentina didn't deserve to be in the final but yet they still made it there and almost won it, with Diego playing most of the tournament with a balloon for an ankle.

In 1994, Maradona was suspended for a substance that is now legal, and that derailed Argentina's run. That very much could have been another world cup for Maradona, as that was the strongest Argentinian squad he played with.

He overcame overcame overcame. This world cup Messi needed things to fall in his favour

Really there's no comparison to what Maradona achieved in 86

Just as another note, I'd urge people to go watch 86 round of 16 when Argentina beat Uruguay 1-0

Look at how many easy chances Diego set up for his team mates and how they screwed those chances.

keep in mind Uruguay won the Copa America in 87 and that every game in 86 is filled with Diego creating easy chances for his team but they missed those easy chances

 

[TheNewEra]

Just as another note, I'd urge people to go watch 86 round of 16 when Argentina beat Uruguay 1-0

Look at how many easy chances Diego set up for his team mates and how they screwed those chances.

keep in mind Uruguay won the Copa America in 87 and that every game in 86 is filled with Diego creating easy chances for his team but they missed those easy chances

When you're at the level Diego was though you can do anything with the ball. You can just throw a lazy boot at the ball and it will ping 30 yards to a runner without any effort at all.

He was just that good in his prime. Dribble at a defence they literally back away, and when they come to try and get the ball back its just moved in the other direction, when you have that level of talent and you're at the absolute top of your game there's nothing you can do.

Like SAF once said about Barca in 2009 some times you just need to wait. Time is the enemy for Diego, for Messi for Pele, because one day they have to retire.

In their actual playing careers just pack up and go home.

 

[harms]

I think there's a clear top 3 which runs:

1. Maradona 1986
2. Garrincha 1962
3. Cruyff 1974

Each stand out because of the volume of chances they created, the number of players they skinned, the times they were fouled, and the central talismanic role they played for their team. After that there's a bit of a gap for me and I'd probably tier them:

• Didi/Pele 1958, Eusebio 1966, Pele 1970, Kempes 1978, Matthaus 1990, Romario/Baggio 1994, Ronaldo/Rivaldo 2002, Cannavaro/Zidane 2006, Messi/Mbappe 2022
• Kopa/Fontaine 1958, Charlton 1966, Moore/Muller 1970, Beckenbauer 1974, Rensenbrink 1978, Scirea/Zico 1982, Baresi/Maradona 1990, Stoichkov/Hagi 1994, Ronaldo/Thuram 1998, Ballack 2002, Xavi/Iniesta/Forlan 2010, Robben/Rodriguez/Messi 2014, Modric 2018

All since we had full footage from the late 1950s. Might be one or two others who should be included. It's quite hard to split when you start comparing across positions as well.

As usual, it’s hard to add anything to your posts. Although I’d probably rate Moore’s 1966 even higher than 1970 (he was way more active in the build up although in 1970 he did have what is may be the single best defensive performance in an individual World Cup game). Maybe put Kahn in — yes, he fecked up in the final, but I’d rate him as a better/more important player than Ballack in that miraculous Germany’s campaign (let’s be honest, they were far from final-worthy as a team).

 

[LochGormanAbú]

Kahn actually won the golden ball for that tournament!

Only the Great Ronaldo in the final and Robbie Keane in the group stage scored against him

 

[mitchmouse]

Anyone who doesn't say "Pele" presumably never saw Pele (in my opinion)

 

[Matt007a]

I’d say it’s the best performance of recent times but I think it’s a stretch to put it right at the top. The fact he did it at 35 elevates it a bit more but it’s still not on the level of Maradona in 86.

It’s certainly the best tournament performance we’ve ever seen from someone of his age but at the same time it’s clear that players are now able to have longer careers than their predecessors.

It’s the Jewell in the crown of an all time great player that puts him on a table only two other players sit at. It’s the perfect end to an unbelievable career and a great story even for non Messi fans. That again elevates the ranking slightly.

If you’re just talking about a single player over their entire World Cup career then it’s Pele by a country mile. Won 3 world cups out of a possible 4, scored massive goals in a tournament at 17 and was the worlds best player for over a decade. He did however benefit in a way Maradona and Messi never did by having all time great sides around him in every tournament.

 

[harms]

i remember Thuram had a great tournament, but wasnt Zidane the one who made the biggest mark from that french squad?

great post by the way.

It’s been discussed to death but no, Zidane being great in 1998 is a bit of a myth, he was generally a disappointment with only 1 assist and a stupid red card to show pre-final… before turning on God-mode and winning the final for France with a brace.

 

[TheNewEra]

I’d say it’s the best performance of recent times but I think it’s a stretch to put it right at the top. The fact he did it at 35 elevates it a bit more but it’s still not on the level of Maradona in 86.

It’s certainly the best tournament performance we’ve ever seen from someone of his age but at the same time it’s clear that players are now able to have longer careers than their predecessors.

It’s the Jewell in the crown of an all time great player that puts him on a table only two other players sit at. It’s the perfect end to an unbelievable career and a great story even for non Messi fans. That again elevates the ranking slightly.

If you’re just talking about a single player over their entire World Cup career then it’s Pele by a country mile. Won 3 world cups out of a possible 4, scored massive goals in a tournament at 17 and was the worlds best player for over a decade. He did however benefit in a way Maradona and Messi never did by having all time great sides around him in every tournament.

It was also the same era as football that were like bricks, keepers having a cigar at half time. Lev Yashin for one used to have a cigarette and a shot of whiskey to calm his nerves before games.

I really wish we could see prime Pele now I think he would have huge advantages now in the modern game such a brilliant player and i'm really sad to hear about his health recently.

One point where I take off my hat to Pele is... football only got real funding in the 70s so Pele did it before football really developed.

Pele only made around $4-5 million in his career, which is less than Mbappe makes in 2 weeks.

He's made $100m or so since he stopped playing, he was the absolute best of his era and doing what he did in that era will always be remarkable to me.

 

[Lay]

I’ve been going through Maradona games the last two years or so and I don’t think 86 will be beaten. Messi was good but this wasn’t peak Messi, I’d have loved to have seen peak Messi and peak R9 win it. It’s remarkable both still won it despite one being 35 and the other having no knees

 

[Red the Bear]

It's still Maradona and it's not even close.

I know this thread was made on back of messi's wonderful performances and I gotta say his ranks quite highly.

Top 5 perhaps?

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

It’s a simple answer really - Maradona in 86.

Messi and Mbappé from 2022 could both be top 10 in history. But number 1 is untouchable.

 

[Red the Bear]

i remember Thuram had a great tournament, but wasnt Zidane the one who made the biggest mark from that french squad?

great post by the way.

Zidane was great and put a masterclass in that final but it could be argued that their defense had more to do with them getting to the final than Zidane or their attack, looking at their defensive record it's a justifiable position .

2006 was all Zidane however .

 

[CruyffMaradonaMessi]

Messi's 2022 World Cup has to be one of the best in history given his performances, statistics (he beat several records in the process) all the circumstances surrounding Argentina (trophyless for 36 years in the World Cup BEFORE Messi was even born) and the enormous pressure he was playing under (now or never to culminate his only missing trophy to become the GOAT, the lost 2014 World Cup final back of his mind etc.).

Talking about the records that Messi broke. Just a small overview of them:

https://www.si.com/fannation/soccer...-records-broken-by-lionel-messi-at-qatar-2022

https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/footba...t-lionel-messis-world-cup-records_502281.html

The list is endless.

All that while being freaking 35.5 years old and far from his physical prime. It is scary to think about how good he would have been in this World Cup had he had his old pace.

Numerous iconic moments as well in particular those insane 2 assists against the Netherlands and Croatia. Controlling games practically from the start to the beginning with few exceptions such as the first game against Saudi Arabia. Only player in World Cup history to score in the group stage, round of 16, quarterfinals, semifinals and final. If not for the missed PK against arguably one of the best goalkeepers this World Cup (Poland's goalkeeper, I won't bother correctly spelling his name) he would have scored in every single World Cup game.

I honestly doubt that we will ever see a better performance from a 35.5 year old player.

And for all the Maradona 1986 (failed to score in the final, the goal scored with his hand against England - Argentina could have easily have lost that game from what I saw on YouTube when I watched that game), it has been overblown a bit due to nostalgia and time. He was phenomenal but so was Kempes 8 years prior and Messi this time around. Which is why we saw tons of old Argentina fans (who saw all 3 wins in action and all 3 players) who were quick to proclaim Messi as the GOAT.

Messi is an alien basically. There are not enough superlatives to describe him and what he was done for football in the past 15 years.

A fitting photo for the occasion:



EDIT: Another crucial point. Football in 2022 and the teams that Argentina and Messi were competing against are/were far superior to the lot that Maradona was playing against in freaking 1986. Anyone that tries to argue otherwise is simply stuck in time and nostalgia. With VAR around in 1986, Maradona would never have won the World Cup to begin with and he would have received a red card against England before he scored his insane solo goal. BTW, Messi scored an almost carbon copy of that goal in 2008 against Getafe in a Copa del Rey semifinal game. One of the many uncanny similarities between Messi and Maradona. What a story.

 

[D_EP]

There's a lot of revisionism going on to elevate Messi for some reason.

As others have stated, Messi scored a whole bunch of penalties, add that they beat Australia, Poland, Mexico, Croatia (who I wouldn't really classify as world beaters compared to some of the great teams of the past), add that France had Benzema, Pogba and Kante missing who likely would've had a great impact on the final.

Basically Messi had everything fall in his favour.

The argument that it's not a 'fair comparison' because Maradona was at his peak and Messi was 35, well Messi had his peak to stamp his mark on the previous world cups he played in but simply put he didn't, but yet this is given as an excuse to beat down Maradona's achievement and elevate Messi

Now compare that Maradona in 86. There were 0 hopes on that Argentinian side, Diego was written off after 82, came back from a broken ankle, up against strong teams in 86

Drew with Italy (82 winners) in group stages, beat Uruguay (Copa America champions in 87), beat England, beat Belgium, and then beat a stacked West German side in the final with a delightful one touch, incision pass for the winner.

There's no comparison.

Yes, I agree. If Argentina hadn't won the final we wouldn't even be talking about how great Messi was. We'd be talking about how great Mbappe was getting a hatrick in the final.

Pele and Maradona were far better. I even watched all the games.

 

[Oranges038]

Zidane really wasn't all that in 98

Thuram was better, as was Blanc.

Can't say if anyone before 1990 was better as I have no memory of it.

But Baggio in 94 was excellent, Kahn in 2002 right up to the final.

Cannavaro in 06 was like a one man defence at times.

 

[Red the Bear]

If I had to pick the standout performance of each world cup.
1970: Muller
1974: Beckenbauer (most would pick cryuff but I think the kaiser was more influential in getting the win for his team and they did beat the Dutch after all)
1978: kempes Although I won't rank among the best
1982: rossi as his post brqzil performance was ridiculous, to be honest that Italian team had a lot of great performer
1986: maradona
1990: mathuas
1994: baggio
1998: thuram
2002: rivaldo
2006: zidane (cannavero was wonderful but I don't think he was as pivotal to getting his team to the final as Zidane was)
2010: no one stood out so I go with Iniesta
2014: lahm
2018: either modric or poga(as much as it pains me to say it) kante with a shout in as well.
2022: messi


Performances from 1978,2010,2014 and 2018 to a degree didn't stand out that much.

 

[mshnsh]

Scotland, Morocco and Chile were all basically one-man shows. Of course Brazil had other great players as well, who could exploit of all the gaping wounds Ronaldo's sorties or sheer gravity left behind, but really, the Denmark game was the only one were Brazil was more than "just give it to Ronaldo", and Rivaldo was actually their best player that game. Iirc. I'm starting to doubt my memory of that world cup....

At no point was it "let's just pass the ball to Ronaldo." Brazil had a great team with talented young players and world cup winners.

But regardless, Messi’s 22 is the closest thing to Maradona's 86.

Again read my post in that Maradona had a lot of things going against him in 86 and he still overcame it all.

In 1990 Argentina didn't deserve to be in the final but yet they still made it there and almost won it, with Diego playing most of the tournament with a balloon for an ankle.

In 1994, Maradona was suspended for a substance that is now legal, and that derailed Argentina's run. That very much could have been another world cup for Maradona, as that was the strongest Argentinian squad he played with.

He overcame overcame overcame. This world cup Messi needed things to fall in his favour

Really there's no comparison to what Maradona achieved in 86

Firstly, at no point have I stated that Messi’s 22 is equal to Maradona’s 86. It isn't but is the next best thing since than. And it wasn't plain sailing. They started with a loss to Saudi Arabia, almost blew it vs Netherlands and France in the closing stages of the game only to come through. Messi provided some of the most memorable moments in the tournament. This was Messi’s world cup.

Maradona at Italia 90 was way below his best; the only good moment was the assist vs Brazil.

 

[Lay]

At no point was it "let's just pass the ball to Ronaldo." Brazil had a great team with talented young players and world cup winners.

I'm not sure about great team. Cruyff criticised the team and hoped they don't win the World Cup cos he wasn't sure they were a good team.

Cruyff: “I said at the start of the tournament that I did not like this Brazilian team, and I still say that. It would be really bad for football if Brazil won with such poor play, because this team is imitated throughout the world. I am not going to say that France will win, because Brazil are a strong team, but my hope is for the sake of football, because the play produced by Zagallo’s team is really poor.”

 

[mshnsh]

I'm not sure about great team. Cruyff criticised the team and hoped they don't win the World Cup cos he wasn't sure they were a good team.

Cruyff: “I said at the start of the tournament that I did not like this Brazilian team, and I still say that. It would be really bad for football if Brazil won with such poor play, because this team is imitated throughout the world. I am not going to say that France will win, because Brazil are a strong team, but my hope is for the sake of football, because the play produced by Zagallo’s team is really poor.”

It was a strong team. You can't deny that.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Thuram was better, as was Blanc.

Can't say if anyone before 1990 was better as I have no memory of it.

But Baggio in 94 was excellent, Kahn in 2002 right up to the final.

Cannavaro in 06 was like a one man defence at times.

He was good but he had one of the best goalkeepers of all time behind him, who made one of the best saves ever in the final otherwise he wouldn’t have been remembered the same way. Buffon was second to Cannavaro in the Ballon d’Or that year, so he was far from alone for Italy’s defensive record.

 

[Josh 76]

Messi's 2022 World Cup has to be one of the best in history given his performances, statistics (he beat several records in the process) all the circumstances surrounding Argentina (trophyless for 36 years in the World Cup BEFORE Messi was even born) and the enormous pressure he was playing under (now or never to culminate his only missing trophy to become the GOAT, the lost 2014 World Cup final back of his mind etc.).

Talking about the records that Messi broke. Just a small overview of them:

https://www.si.com/fannation/soccer...-records-broken-by-lionel-messi-at-qatar-2022

https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/footba...t-lionel-messis-world-cup-records_502281.html

The list is endless.

All that while being freaking 35.5 years old and far from his physical prime. It is scary to think about how good he would have been in this World Cup had he had his old pace.

Numerous iconic moments as well in particular those insane 2 assists against the Netherlands and Croatia. Controlling games practically from the start to the beginning with few exceptions such as the first game against Saudi Arabia. Only player in World Cup history to score in the group stage, round of 16, quarterfinals, semifinals and final. If not for the missed PK against arguably one of the best goalkeepers this World Cup (Poland's goalkeeper, I won't bother correctly spelling his name) he would have scored in every single World Cup game.

I honestly doubt that we will ever see a better performance from a 35.5 year old player.

And for all the Maradona 1986 (failed to score in the final, the goal scored with his hand against England - Argentina could have easily have lost that game from what I saw on YouTube when I watched that game), it has been overblown a bit due to nostalgia and time. He was phenomenal but so was Kempes 8 years prior and Messi this time around. Which is why we saw tons of old Argentina fans (who saw all 3 wins in action and all 3 players) who were quick to proclaim Messi as the GOAT.

Messi is an alien basically. There are not enough superlatives to describe him and what he was done for football in the past 15 years.

A fitting photo for the occasion:



EDIT: Another crucial point. Football in 2022 and the teams that Argentina and Messi were competing against are/were far superior to the lot that Maradona was playing against in freaking 1986. Anyone that tries to argue otherwise is simply stuck in time and nostalgia. With VAR around in 1986, Maradona would never have won the World Cup to begin with and he would have received a red card against England before he scored his insane solo goal. BTW, Messi scored an almost carbon copy of that goal in 2008 against Getafe in a Copa del Rey semifinal game. One of the many uncanny similarities between Messi and Maradona. What a story.

If there was VAR in 1986, games would have been abandoned with all those players getting sent off with fouls on Maradona.

 

[Elcabron]

Pretty close.

It helps that Diego Maradona in 86 is his general peak as a footballer.

Messi was a better player 5 years and 10 years ago.

That's a good point.

Very different eras as well. Penalties are thrown around like confetti now compared to 86. Argentina very reliant on pens this tournament that they simply wouldn't have been awarded in 86.

I'm sure Pele probably deserves a mention here also as does Ronaldo in 98. Baggio 94.