I believe Maradona's 86 is generally considered the greatest, 5 goals, 5 assists with massive performances in the knockouts, solo goals against England and Belgium, assisted the winner in the final. How does this tournament from Messi compare it? Are there other contenders for the top 2 spots?
Greatest individual player World Cup of all time?
- Thread starter BarcaSpurs
- Start date
Messi scored 7 this tournament but I think around 4 were penalties? Think Maradona still edges it, and I’d say Mbappe too (who scored 2 overall)?
Maradona still edges it
He scored less penalties than Messi, and that amazing goal against the english when the Malvinas conflict was fresh was perfect.
He scored less penalties than Messi, and that amazing goal against the english when the Malvinas conflict was fresh was perfect.
Pretty close.
It helps that Diego Maradona in 86 is his general peak as a footballer.
Messi was a better player 5 years and 10 years ago.
It helps that Diego Maradona in 86 is his general peak as a footballer.
Messi was a better player 5 years and 10 years ago.
From the ones I've seen Messi 2022 is up there with the best. But from what I read Maradona 1986 seems unparalleled.
Maradona 86. The issue here is that he was at his peak and Messi is nearing the end of his carreer, so well, it's just one more of those where you never will have a definitive answer.
Maradona in '86 is unparalleled. This WC from Messi probably ranks in the top 5. Right around Pelé's 1970
Messi and Maradona are obvious picks: I believe each got ten goal involvements. Maradona- 5 goals and 5 assists, Messi- 7 goals and 3 assists.
4 of Messi's goals were penalties but there were lots of wow moments (the crazy assists against the Netherlands and Croatia) and of course the goal in the final itself. Sadly I never saw Maradona play but the goals against England and Belgium and the final assist are amazing watching them on YouTube.
Didn't Jairzinho score in very single game of the competition in 1970? That's some achievement if i've got that right.
4 of Messi's goals were penalties but there were lots of wow moments (the crazy assists against the Netherlands and Croatia) and of course the goal in the final itself. Sadly I never saw Maradona play but the goals against England and Belgium and the final assist are amazing watching them on YouTube.
Didn't Jairzinho score in very single game of the competition in 1970? That's some achievement if i've got that right.
I think there's a clear top 3 which runs:
1. Maradona 1986
2. Garrincha 1962
3. Cruyff 1974
Each stand out because of the volume of chances they created, the number of players they skinned, the times they were fouled, and the central talismanic role they played for their team. After that there's a bit of a gap for me and I'd probably tier them:
1. Maradona 1986
2. Garrincha 1962
3. Cruyff 1974
Each stand out because of the volume of chances they created, the number of players they skinned, the times they were fouled, and the central talismanic role they played for their team. After that there's a bit of a gap for me and I'd probably tier them:
- Didi/Pele 1958, Eusebio 1966, Pele 1970, Kempes 1978, Matthaus 1990, Romario/Baggio 1994, Ronaldo/Rivaldo 2002, Cannavaro/Zidane 2006, Messi/Mbappe 2022
- Kopa/Fontaine 1958, Charlton 1966, Moore/Muller 1970, Beckenbauer 1974, Rensenbrink 1978, Scirea/Zico 1982, Baresi/Maradona 1990, Stoichkov/Hagi 1994, Ronaldo/Thuram 1998, Ballack 2002, Xavi/Iniesta/Forlan 2010, Robben/Rodriguez/Messi 2014, Modric 2018
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I would have loved to see Just Fontaine. Scoring 13 goals in 6 games (scoring against any team he played), despite the low quality of football back then, looks still crazy. No one came ever close to that.
Kocsis scored 11, 4 years before, in fewer games
That’s even more nuts.
Single WC, Messi's 2022 is probably around Top 5-10. Maradona '86 was better, no doubt. Cruyff '74 and Pele '70 other contenders.
As an overall WC player, Pele is still #1 if you consider his 58WC too.
As an overall WC player, Pele is still #1 if you consider his 58WC too.
Ronaldo (R9) deserves a shout for the '02 tournament. 8 goals including two in the final.
Schillachi always sticks in my head for world cup performances, probably because Italia 90 is the first one I remember. He was awesome in it. Turns out out he had done nothing before it and did nothing after but for that one world cup he was the man. Obviously not better than Maradona in 86, Pele in 70, Messi this world cup but still.
Kahn actually won the golden ball for that tournament!
Maradona easily. Then Pelé.
I think it was very comparable to Mbappe’s. They both scored 8. They both were the biggest stars in their team. Until the final, it was Rivaldo/Griezmann who was their most important and best performing player. Then in the final Ronaldo/Mbappe did that.
Messi is higher IMO. Not at his peak, but should be the best performance by a player since Maradona 1986.
Point being those early world cups were stupidly high scoring
Would have probably been the best of all time of he managed to win it in 98.
But imo Cruyff 74, Pelé 1970 and Maradona 86 are the best.
Still no. Seriously, all the Argentina games from Mexico 86 are available online, go have a look people
Ronaldo was terrorising defences that tournament he was virtually unplayable, will stick my head out and say the most unplayable CF ever in that period. Why cut out the second part of my post where I say Diego 86 is one of the best?
Because it underrates just how preposterous Maradona was in '86. Yes, Ronaldo was a force of nature until he almost died the night before the final. Maradona was more. Maradona's "worst" game at that world cup was comparable to Messi's final yesterday, and that only as a result of Germany quite literally going into the game with a game plan of "let anybody else beat us but not Maradona". Lothar Matthaus spent 90 minutes man marking him and for good measure they had 2 other players constantly close by to double or triple him everytime the ball came near him. And in the end he still beats them, putting Burru through on goal for the winner - after 80 minutes of argentina domination that was a direct result of Germany focusing solely on not letting him beat them by himself, before 2 german goals in 5 minutes put the game back in balance. Remarkable how closely yesterday's final tracked that one
You could argue Messi wasn’t the best player in this past World Cup, up until the final Griezmann was just as good for me.
Messi was essentially Griezmann + goals (though weaker in defense). Griezmann choked in the final, while Messi shined though.
Ronaldo, in that tournament, was pretty much a goalscorer. He had become a great goalscorer and a shadow of his former self. Maradona in 86 remains the best individual campaign with iconic performances and goals. Messi's 2022 is not far behind Maradona's 86 and for me the second best individual campaign amongst the one's I've seen.
Completely disagree. Griezmann was France's best player upto and including the semi but Messi carried the Argentines and produced some magical moments like the assists vs Netherlands and Croatia, and the goals vs Mexico and Australia. His performances were brilliant despite walking half the time.
I know the story my friend I've watched those games a few times, Diego was a beastBecause it underrates just how preposterous Maradona was in '86. Yes, Ronaldo was a force of nature until he almost died the night before the final. Maradona was more. Maradona's "worst" game at that world cup was comparable to Messi's final yesterday, and that only as a result of Germany quite literally going into the game with a game plan of "let anybody else beat us but not Maradona". Lothar Matthaus spent 90 minutes man marking him and for good measure they had 2 other players constantly close by to double or triple him everytime the ball came near him. And in the end he still beats them, putting Burru through on goal for the winner - after 80 minutes of argentina domination that was a direct result of Germany focusing solely on not letting him beat them by himself, before 2 german goals in 5 minutes put the game back in balance. Remarkable how closely yesterday's final tracked that one
how he survived his career and wasn't ended by a shitty tackle is a miracle.Too many penalties in Messi's tournament and he drifted in and out of games. Definitely a great performance but there have been quite a few that have been better.
For me:
1. Maradona 86: At his peak. Definition of unplayable.
2. Messi 22: At end of his career, provided the genius for an industrious Argentina side.
3. Baggio 94: Carried Italy only to fall at the final hurdle. Was not voted player of the tournament.
4. Ronaldo 02: Goals galore. Redemption for 98 and relief for return from a potentially career ending injury. Kahn was voted player of the tournament.
5. Rossi 82: Goals.
1. Maradona 86: At his peak. Definition of unplayable.
2. Messi 22: At end of his career, provided the genius for an industrious Argentina side.
3. Baggio 94: Carried Italy only to fall at the final hurdle. Was not voted player of the tournament.
4. Ronaldo 02: Goals galore. Redemption for 98 and relief for return from a potentially career ending injury. Kahn was voted player of the tournament.
5. Rossi 82: Goals.
Bolded part is debatable. Messi was quite good yesterday, Maradona was stifled. But I agree that Maradona was heavily marked; failing to do that would have been suicidal for Germany. As it is, he still had the final say.Because it underrates just how preposterous Maradona was in '86. Yes, Ronaldo was a force of nature until he almost died the night before the final. Maradona was more. Maradona's "worst" game at that world cup was comparable to Messi's final yesterday, and that only as a result of Germany quite literally going into the game with a game plan of "let anybody else beat us but not Maradona". Lothar Matthaus spent 90 minutes man marking him and for good measure they had 2 other players constantly close by to double or triple him everytime the ball came near him. And in the end he still beats them, putting Burru through on goal for the winner - after 80 minutes of argentina domination that was a direct result of Germany focusing solely on not letting him beat them by himself, before 2 german goals in 5 minutes put the game back in balance. Remarkable how closely yesterday's final tracked that one
Ronaldo's '98 world cup. He was both a goalscorer and play-driver so to speak, a lot of brazil's attack came down to get him the ball, no matter where he is on the pitch, and watch him go to work. If you exclude the final it was probably the second or third greatest individual WC performance of all time, right up there with Garrincha in '62
Messi's 2022 world cup has been fantastic but not at that level either
Messi’s world cup (just like his career) was not just about the goals though. His allround performances were great throughout the tournament.
Maradona 86. And it's not even close.
He had some wonderful moment with his passing I agree and bursts of dribbles, but that's what I meant by drifting in and out of games. He wasn't as dominant as other performances. I don't fully blame him, he's getting old and has been playing like this for a while now.
I thought Messi's world cup was very impressive in the context of his age and the pressure on him, but still often one of isolated moments rather than being a consistently dominant presence in almost every game like Maradona or Cruyff, who were at their peak. He drifted in and out of most of the games, mixing in periods of good, tidy link up play with similar ones of being quite static, uninvolved or marked well(as you would expect of most attackers at that age). It was an intelligent, composed display, but he was by no means carrying this team like i'm sure a narrative will form around eventually.
It's difficult to compare a 32 team World Cup to the historical 16 or 24 team formats. There's more matches and lower quality teams.
Paolo Rossi's 6 goals in '82, all in the knock phase with no penalties is probably the single best run of World Cup games from a single player.
Paolo Rossi's 6 goals in '82, all in the knock phase with no penalties is probably the single best run of World Cup games from a single player.
I was referring to Ronaldo 2002. In 1998, you could actually argue for Rivaldo being Brazils best player, just as in 2002. I remember watching the QF vs Denmark and the commentator saying something to that effect as well.
I think you are underrating Messi’s 2022. This Argentina team is nowhere near Brazil of 1998 and they had to rely so many times on Messi to provide something special. The assists vs Netherlands and Croatia are amongst the best I've ever seen at the world cup. The guy was voted motm 5 times which is more than any other player ever.
But anyway, given you support Madrid, I suppose I should expect you to play down anything Messi achieves.
Germany "stifled" Maradona by throwing every body they had at him, all the time, and cutting him down whenever he got a bit of space. He still consistently opened them up and was at the heart of the game in a way Messi wasn't yesterday. Messi does have the goals which Maradona didn't have vs 1 assist, but otherwise Messi was both freer than Diego and generally less involved. One key difference for Messi compared to past WC with Argentina was how much more of a forward he was this time - rather than constantly going to the ball he waited for it higher up