Why is that though?
With all the money spent I'm English football and the cost of coaching badges, courses etc. You'd expect us to be on par with the Italians, Germans etc.
It's something I've been curious about for many years now.
Graham Potter | turns down Ajax job
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Why is that though?
With all the money spent I'm English football and the cost of coaching badges, courses etc. You'd expect us to be on par with the Italians, Germans etc.
It's something I've been curious about for many years now.
Potter definitely made a move at @crossy1686's wife
Be thankful we didnt hire him. Many posters on here wanted him when he was at Brighton. He did seem to be a quality coach over there, so this is no knock to those posters
Agree, some fantastic young players I cant believe have gone to Chelsea...Gusto when Reece James is there, Chukwuemeka when other youngsters more established arent gettign games, Madueke when so many others have failed to make the spot there own.....etc etc I wonder if its bad career choices or money motivation?
I do think any manager would have struggled. They never should have fired Tuchel.....but though only a few months, Potters record was diabolical, he did have to go, should have a good month ago in fact it was so bad.
It seems English managers aren't willing to do lower leagues or learn on the job elsewhere anymore. They're rushing to be appointed to a top 4 PL team without the experience or know how to manage at that level. Look at Lampard, Gerrard, Potter etc, foreign managers start out at lower league or lesser teams in their countries and work their way up, learning on the way, which is probably why they're better equipped to deal with managing at this level.
To be fair, international management isn't the pinnacle for elite managers nowadays. Martinez got sacked from Everton and was rewarded with the Belgium job. He then underperformed with Belgium and got the Portugal job.
He only got the job because he was cheap though, Belgium couldn't afford a good manager with their budget and he was the best available with what they had to spend.
Does anyone think that with players Chelsea brought, they might have done a head count on away trips and missed someone out, like what happened to Kevin in Home Alone?
Is there an issue fitting them in though? A good manager gets a tune out of some of them, maybe he shores up the defence, or gets the left or right side playing well, or maybe there's some kind of pattern to the play etc. We've seen none of that from Potter and that's the concern really. With all the players Chelsea have signed, at least a couple should be playing well.
I was going to do some quotes and decided to stop being mean
For the EPL, Howe and Potter are actually very good coaches, and Rodgers a more established coach already. You also have Dyche, even if he is a bit out of the times, and Southgate as well even if he’s flat. After that, it’s real life and the results they get.
I mean, all these seem an improvement or progress on the correspondent, previous generation of Pardew / Moyes / McClaren / Allardyce / Bruce?
You're just blabbing the usual cliches fans spout now about managerial qualifications.
What English manager was rushing to be appointed to a top 4 PL team (2 of those slots have been closed off indefinitely for years now between City and Liverpool)? There are plenty of English managers in the Championship and further down in the english pyramid.
And this is the wrong thread to even make the point you are trying to make... If anyone did it the "right" way, it's Potter. He failed at the final step but no one can accuse him of rushing his way there, he did a great job with Brighton.
Potter was coaching university football for many years before joining Ostersaunds in the lower leagues and doing well there.
Rodgers also begun his career coaching Chelseas academy before working his way up the leagues at senior level.
I'm sure there are numerous other examples over the years. It just seems at the top level, British coaches never thrive. The only ones I can think of in the last twenty years are Ferguson and to a lesser extent Moyes at Everton
Won't hurt his bank balance TBF!Why won't it hurt his stockmaybe not in here, where many are obsessed with him. Of course it will hurt his stock, he'll have to rebuild himself again.
I forgot about Dyche actually, he's a good coach and I wouldnt say he's out of the times; just his teams play a different brand of football.
Fair enough - I didn't know Belgium couldn't afford anyone better. Wouldn't you say Potter is more qualified for the England job than Southgate was though?
Yeah, they might have underestimated the importance of a high manager-club fit.
I would say he was overwhelmed by the task.
He didnot underperform. Third place in a WC is a massive achievement for Belgium.
He did? Surely a team like Tottenham would have been a better role for him before taking on Chelsea? He jumped from a - don't get relegated team - to a - we expect to win every game team. Those a massive differences in expectations and he wasn't ready for it. He should have gone for a Tottenham next who are more of a - we don't expect to win every week and top 4 is a nice to have team.
But again, he took the job because he was offered it instead of thinking what the best move for his career actually was. Now he'll struggle to get appointed at top half team because he's publically proven he was out of his depth in a big way. There was no rush for this job, it would have come eventually, he was trying to speed run his career for no reason.
He's a midtable level manager. Best case scenario is he takes over a midtable club, gets backed, and gets them into Europe. I always thought it was a bizarre appointment by Chelsea.
How are you people gauging managerial talent by nationality?
The PL is the best league in the world (so we are told). Aspiring English managers face competition for the top club manager spots not only from their fellow countrymen, but from top managers from other countries who desire the challenge and extra pay (and huge severance in the case of Chelsea).
You have Unai Emery coming in to manage Aston Villa. Unai Emery. Multiple winner of the Europa League, took Sevilla to many top 4 finishes. What other league faces that level of competition?
There is too many of them, so yes there is an issue fitting them unless FIFA decides that we are moving to 13 or 15 players instead of 11.
Because managing in Sweden and managing Chelsea are different beasts. How are you supposed to handle the expectation of Chelsea when you've never done anything remotely near that? It's the same for other managers, we see it every season.
I'm just glad only 1 person on here had the stones to take my bet.
Well yes, there's an issue fitting them in because they're all playing shite. If he managed to get 11 of those players playing well there wouldn't be any issue fitting anyone in and they'd have a nailed on first 11 instead of a squad of 40 disjoined players. Again, that's the managers job.
Avada Yoursackedra
same but I decided against it also.With the squad of players Belgium had in 2018, I think a semi final place was to be expected. To get knocked out of the group stages in Qatar was a massive underachievement.
Not really, Southgate managed the u21's for years and was part of the England fold before moving into the main job. We've seen in the past appointing club managers as international managers just doesn't work.
I can imagine that Boehly liked him because he is a native speaker. American owners do not deal with foreign coaches. Also they have quite a different approach to deal with managers and coaches.
It might also explain why they fell out with Tuchel so quickly. Tuchel probably came across as very direct and brazen - whereas he simply lacked the ability to communicate in a charming and nuanced way.
I want to add that you can expect a number of former winning players from this golden PL era to become very good coaches in the coming years, even if Neville, Lamps, Slippy & others are not offering the best impression… and yes, I am very interested in what Rooney (!) is going to do with his reputation and cumulated credit.
What
Southgate was never qualified for the job. They believed he could transition seamlessly to the men’s role with the players. It worked to an extent but given he literally only managed Middlesbrough and did a shit job there.. Potter has at least worked in different countries and has shown himself to be fairly adaptable.
And the managers job has been made extremely difficult by the fact that he didn't benefit from a preseason and that instead of focusing on a normal group of player, he had to deal with a gigantic squad that makes little sense in the first place. Also it's not a given that Potter had the freedom to ignore numerous club signings and focused on a smaller group.
If anything, Tuchel imho called a spade a spade two, three or four times in a row and that manchild Boehly, used to being toe-sucked by the suits in his corporate bubble, just decided to show he is the boss.
This has Naglesmann written all over it
No I wasn't not disputing that. I'm just saying British managers do tend to start off at lower leagues, working up to gain experience. Whereas you said in your previous post they shortcut into the top jobs.
It just baffles me with how much these coaching courses are and the amount of money within British football, why theres a constient struggle develop top level coaches. Where does that really come from, is it some type of British mentality towards football or sports?
If you look in Italy for example, they're much more detailed and meticulous when it comes to coaching. Managers like Allegri and Sarri have written 20,000 word thesis essays on football tactics and sports pedagogy.
Additionally, in Germany their FA is very focused on the technical details; constantly spending months and semesters ensuring coaches are attuned to these details. Despite football being the main sport here, I just don't think there's the same level of seriousness.
The same can also be said about punditry and match analysis. People like Neville and Carragher are vague in there analyses compared to their continental counterparts.
Yes
Few points you're missing here:
1. The job wasn't available at the time, while the Chelsea job was.
2. Given his performance with Chelsea, there is no guarantee he would have done well at Tottenham. You can't be this caustic about Potter and think he'd do well at Spurs (a dysfunctional club in its own right that has chewed and spat out Nuno/Conte/Mourinho)
3. Expectations are huge at Spurs to win a trophy, any trophy, and stay in the CL, despite the financial constraints. Chelsea have higher expectations but that comes with more resources.
With that in mind, i don't think anyone can say the Spurs position would have been ideal for Potter, compared to Chelsea. Even with the benefit of hindsight.
Managerial success is not linear. There are examples of managers who made huge leaps and succeeded. There are examples of managers who made lateral or small leaps and failed. There are no guarantees or heuristics.
Which is why I always laugh at this idea of "starting at the lower levels and working your way up". There are managers in the Championship who will never rise above that. Potter could have rejected the Chelsea job, only for him to be fired after things went south at Brighton and that's the end of his chapter.
When a top opportunity comes up, you take it. If you succeed, you've skipped the fence into elite manager territory. If you fail, you have more money in your pocket, you can go back to the clubs you were managing before, and if you do well, eventually another top 6 club will forget the prior mishap and hire you.
Potter won't struggle to get an appointment below the top 6 tier. And once he does, he'll just have to show a decent level of competency before his name is in the ring again. The managerial go-around is not as punitive as you think. Mourinho has been sacked 4 times from top 4 clubs in England.