Graeme Sourness | Retires from “punditry”

Presume you're about 45 or upwards?
i'd imagine the only footage most early 40s and down have seen of Sourness is exceptionally cowardly late challenges.

My favourite is the one where he overuns the ball and studs someone's calf and then crouches on his knees screaming at the ref pointing at an imaginary dot on his leg
I'm at the lower end of your age range yes.
He was a fecking nutter (although I honestly wouldn't categorise him as cowardly - he was quite happy to take on anyone at anytime openly) and some of his "tackles" are horrendous (I think the one you're referring to is from whilst he was at Rangers). I think you're right though that all most people have seen of Souness and remember him for from younger generations in particular is his violence. I think this is a bit similar to the misremembering of Keane and they weren't hugely dis-similar players. Both intelligently ran games and had pathologically insane levels of competitive drive.
I do think Keane was the better player but not by much.
 
Sorry but it’s actually true, Souness was a better player technically than Keane, although technically neither were as good as Pogba so it’s not the be all and end all, there are other qualities which make the sum of a player.

Did you watch Keane at his peak? His weight of pass was immaculate.
 
I'm at the lower end of your age range yes.
He was a fecking nutter (although I honestly wouldn't categorise him as cowardly - he was quite happy to take on anyone at anytime openly) and some of his "tackles" are horrendous (I think the one you're referring to is from whilst he was at Rangers). I think you're right though that all most people have seen of Souness and remember him for from younger generations in particular is his violence. I think this is a bit similar to the misremembering of Keane and they weren't hugely dis-similar players. Both intelligently ran games and had pathologically insane levels of competitive drive.
I do think Keane was the better player but not by much.

I think you're spot on with the Keane comparison. If you look at any youtube type clips, there's always people underplaying him, much in the same way that it's easy for us non Liverpool fans to do the same with Souness.

In a few more years, it'd be even more the case with Keane, as all memory of him playing would elapse for non United types, who would remember the negatives, as fans of rival teams are wont to do. You'd just have the negative clips like Haaland being wheeled out.

I do it with Gerrard all the time. While I still don't think he'd get into a team over Keane or Scholes, he was certainly a huge influential force in the Premier league in his peak days, but was a shadow of the player later on due to his style. Whereas Scholes, if anything became a better player as embraced a totally different role.
Different with Giggs, as the free running winger was the real Giggs, but even he reinvented himself superbly.

Ok..that's a real wandering post...that's week 3 of furlough for you!!
 
Did you watch Keane at his peak? His weight of pass was immaculate.

Keane's passing was simple and very accurate. Because it wasn't Scholes or Beckham esque flashy, I think people massively underplay it.
Also because he had some massive other qualities as well.
 
Keane's passing was simple and very accurate. Because it wasn't Scholes or Beckham esque flashy, I think people massively underplay it.
Also because he had some massive other qualities as well.

Simplistic, maybe, but always forwards and penetrative. A number of high profile team mates have commented on how brilliant Keano’s passing was, including Rooney. Strikers love nothing more than consistent supply. I do think his reversion to a holding player in his latter years is a shame because it impacts his lasting legacy in some ways. He could still run a game with the ball at his feet but his dynamism had gone. Even during his last game, a dour 0-0 at Anfield, he was the best player on the park. A sensational player.
 
Did you watch Keane at his peak? His weight of pass was immaculate.

Yes so what do you think Souness weight of pass wasn’t?

If you think it’s sacrilege to say a player who won 3 Cls as a main was technically better than Keane, you probably think football started in 92..

And it’s the same with Robson...
 
Yes so what do you think Souness weight of pass wasn’t?

If you think it’s sacrilege to say a player who won 3 Cls as a main was technically better than Keane, you probably think football started in 92..

And it’s the same with Robson...

Him winning more CL medals doesn’t automatically make him a better player. Wes Brown has two medals in the same tournament...

Robson was a marvellous player, but sadly plied his trade at a time when United were relatively poor and injuries kept him out at key times – for instance, he missed the ‘90 WC.

Keane was the complete package of great player, leader and winner. You can probably say the same about Souness but it would be fair to say that the competition wasn’t of the same standard.

Anyway, all this is by the by. I originally came here to say that Souness is a cnut who holds (maybe subconsciously) prejudicial views about Pogba. He can go and feck himself, the caveman prick.
 
Simplistic, maybe, but always forwards and penetrative. A number of high profile team mates have commented on how brilliant Keano’s passing was, including Rooney. Strikers love nothing more than consistent supply. I do think his reversion to a holding player in his latter years is a shame because it impacts his lasting legacy in some ways. He could still run a game with the ball at his feet but his dynamism had gone. Even during his last game, a dour 0-0 at Anfield, he was the best player on the park. A sensational player.

I think he was centre back that game, quite oddly.
 
So it's true huh? everyone in Liverpool had moustache in the 80's. I thought it was only a stereotype.
 

What I find ironic in this article is that Souness is complaining how back in his days, you would know from the people if you weren't doing well, and players now are protected from all of that. They also didn't have bitter old players obsessing over them on television and over the internet for everybody to have an opinion on.

No matter how the man tries to spin his criticism as valid, it's always been over the top. I don't know if Souness was actually silly enough to be offended a French guy had no idea who he was or it's just Sky trying to get content, but regardless it's been a lot of nonsense for a long time. Pogba is far more of a professional than Souness ever was, by his own account, and I haven't seen the man play beyond some clips, but I'm confident that Pogba is a far better player than Souness could ever hope to be.
 
:lol: The state of those touches and tackles
To be fair, any player would look abysmal if you just compiled footage of their worst moments, even Messi.

I would love to see a proper video on Souness as a player. This feud between him and Pogba has made me curious about what kind of player he actually was.
 
To be fair, any player would look abysmal if you just compiled footage of their worst moments, even Messi.

I would love to see a proper video on Souness as a player. This feud between him and Pogba has made me curious about what kind of player he actually was.

It’s hardly a feud given that PP doesn’t give a stuff.
 
I think you're spot on with the Keane comparison. If you look at any youtube type clips, there's always people underplaying him, much in the same way that it's easy for us non Liverpool fans to do the same with Souness.

In a few more years, it'd be even more the case with Keane, as all memory of him playing would elapse for non United types, who would remember the negatives, as fans of rival teams are wont to do. You'd just have the negative clips like Haaland being wheeled out.
Indeed. The comments in here deriding Souness the player are cut from the exact same cloth you see rival fans claiming that Keane was only a thug. I’d have thought United’s fanbase would be more aware of not playing down just how influential and dominant the likes of Keane and Souness were.
Keane was the complete package of great player, leader and winner. You can probably say the same about Souness but it would be fair to say that the competition wasn’t of the same standard.
On what basis though? Domestically Liverpool completely dominated the English league when it was indisputably the strongest in Europe, winning 7 out of 8 European Cups. And Souness went toe to toe against some of the greatest midfielders of all time - most notably Paulo Roberto Falcao and Paul Breitner - and came out on top.
 
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He's Tony Bellew III after Tony himself and Dillian Whyte.

Despicable character. Pogba is always in his head.
 
Pogba should just do a Sterling and accuse sky's media of racial bullying and watch sky ditch souness very quickly.
 
Interesting comparison: Souness v Keane
Both similar type of player: drive, tenacity, leaders, temprement etc
As much as I like Keane I would rate Souness the better player. To be fair to Souness, many just see him as a cnut of a pundit and people either are too young to know or they forget the footballer Souness.
Looking at the two I'd go for Souness mainly because I believe he posed more of a threat to the opposition than Keane did. Probably a better goal scorer as well!
 
Interesting comparison: Souness v Keane
Both similar type of player: drive, tenacity, leaders, temprement etc
As much as I like Keane I would rate Souness the better player. To be fair to Souness, many just see him as a cnut of a pundit and people either are too young to know or they forget the footballer Souness.
Looking at the two I'd go for Souness mainly because I believe he posed more of a threat to the opposition than Keane did. Probably a better goal scorer as well!
Only marginally a better goals scorer (.12 per game for Keane to .14 for Souness). I prefer Keane for his metronomic style but Souness is certainly good enough for it to be a healthy debate...and I consider Keane the best midfielder of his generation playing in the UK.
 
Souness was a brilliant midfielder from what I’ve seen, and coupled with his achievements, he would certainly argue that he is better than Keane, or as good. On this particular occasion too, the fault lay primarily with Jamie Carragher I think.
 
For me, just to weigh in on the race conversation from above, I find these sorts of comments having more of a racial undertone than most.

I was watching Joe Hart’s podcast a while ago and he said there was a thing in the game growing up that you ‘can’t trust a black goalkeeper’. It was rarely said explicitly, but the point of it, he said, was that coaches saw them as too ‘erratic/unserious’ or something of that nature for such a role. Two much clown-like.

This question of attitude to the game always lies below the surface for black players. I don’t think many people of a certain British generation are simply ready for a young black millionaire. The things we like, the personality we have, directly contradicts the things they, in all their wisdom, have concluded is ‘sensible’ or a reasonable interest for a young man. The clothes we like, they have decided is too loud, the music we like is not real music, our dancing is too clowny etc. When in the spotlight, it doesn’t take long before headlines like ‘bad boy’ and ‘bling bling’ etc are used. As far as they are aware, you look like the rappers their kids watch on MTV.

The amount of time I have heard about ‘Pogba’s social media activity’. What does that even mean? He posts nothing offensive on social media. People should check themselves if they think there is a problem with dancing, wearing bright clothes, jewellery etc - and even more so if they feel they can glean an insight to your dedication and determination from it.

The other day, Sancho, Rashford and Kyle Walker were on the front of The Sun with the headline ‘twerking from home’, because they were on Tory Lanez’ Instagram Live where girls were twerking.They posted laughing emojis in the comments. As did Scott McTominay and Jack Wilshere, but they were not mentioned.

All of those ‘he supported this player who was black’ is missing the point massively. There are many black players or people who do not confront you with their ‘blackness’. There are those who due to their tastes or exposure etc operate within the confines that these people have concluded is ‘normal’. He drives a modest car. He dresses like the rest of us. He likes the same sort of girls. He talks like us, doesn’t use the same slang etc. There were many black footballers from eras gone by whose behaviour is not stereotypically ‘black’. There were a few whose was, like Andy Cole for example, who was also slapped with the attitude problem stick, and frankly has his achievements massively overlooked. In today’s game, with the money and exposure, you have plenty of young, rich black players who are now overtly ‘black’ - and almost all of them from what I gather is greeted with disapproval. They go to rap concerts, they like to dance, they do their hair certain ways, jewellery etc, they connect with their African or Caribbean roots. Then you have the Neville’s or Sounesses who feel they are qualified to draw the line as to when that stuff is ‘too much’, or ask what they feel is an honest question of whether they can possibly concentrate on being a professional footballer and get their hair cut every week etc.

Ultimately, our personalities, interests etc are not in keeping with ‘normal’, and in their own words, ‘people wouldn’t mind so much if you deliver on the pitch every weekend’, but you shouldn’t be yourself if you struggle to do that. Maybe you can post a video of you petting your Golden Retriever - that is relatable and on the list of what is normal. Dancing in your front room with your brother? Too much.

One of my biggest issues with Pogba is the off-field complaints get gets are largely direct attacks on who he simply is, which come from his background and culture, and have been used to paint him as an unserious footballer. Of course, the things on the pitch, either way, will be seen as confirmation of that. A poor pass or loss of the ball will spark a long talk about his ‘concentration and attitude’, while his many good games are ‘see, you can see what he can become if he just applies himself’.

The fact that Pogba can post a video dancing in his living room and a Sky Sports presenter could show/mention it to Souness or Keane with a ‘Graeme, have you seen this video, I’m sure you’ll love it’ as a joke tells it’s own story. It’s a non-story. Yet even on Redcafe, the amount of times I’ve read ‘I’m not saying it’s necessarily wrong, but he should be sensible enough to not do it’ regarding Pogba is a problem. He is not required to be who Souness or Caf poster x thinks he should be. Why is the conversation on Sky Sports never ‘why do we have a problem with his hair or dancing?’. Just because everyone in the room all agrees does not validate it at all.

Some will say, ‘it’s not about his hair etc, I just have an issue with him giving the ball away’ or whatever they feel his footballing deficiencies are. The point is, that isn’t true. The complaining about loss of possession is massively disproportionate to the actual losing of possession. If all the complaints were simply about football, you simply couldn’t be talking about one of the best few midfielders in the country. Pogba, as he is now, not when he learns to cut x or y out his game, but right now - is better than almost every midfielder in England. You would not think that at all based on the press he gets, both on here and in the media. We could of course, choose to discuss areas for improvement, nothing wrong with that. But the point is, there are a lot more positives to discuss even from a solely footballing perspective than weaknesses, and would be the case if he were white British. He gives the ball away less than people who do not get criticism for giving the ball away, for example. It’s clearly personal, and the personal stuff is likely based on conclusions drawn on a personality that you likely don’t understand at all. The more recent stuff with Raiola has now provided the perfect cover, and it’s easier to now say it is all on that.


Excellent post sir.
 
Was Graeme Souness even that bad? You'd think he was the father of Vinny Jones and Neil Ruddock based on the last few days.
 
Interesting comparison: Souness v Keane
Both similar type of player: drive, tenacity, leaders, temprement etc
As much as I like Keane I would rate Souness the better player. To be fair to Souness, many just see him as a cnut of a pundit and people either are too young to know or they forget the footballer Souness.
Looking at the two I'd go for Souness mainly because I believe he posed more of a threat to the opposition than Keane did. Probably a better goal scorer as well!

both great players. I’d go for Keane, he was the heartbeat of the team, and was a bigger loss when not playing for United that was Souness was not playing for Liverpool.

one thing I’m sure we can all agree on is that both were appalling managers - very similar in their attitudes, and couldn’t make that adjustment. Which is clear when we see this ridiculous spat between Souness and Pogba.
 
Souness clearly has an unhealthy obsession with Pogba which is bordering on weird but you can tell it comes from a place where he simply cannot understand him.

Souness is from an era where giving your best was the minimum requirement and he sees Pogba as a disruptive, uncommitted, waste of talent who is more interested in doing tricks than winning games for his team.

Is that because of a deep lying racist mentality or just because Pogba is a disruptive, uncommitted, waste of talent who is more interested in doing tricks than winning games for his team?
 
Souness clearly has an unhealthy obsession with Pogba which is bordering on weird but you can tell it comes from a place where he simply cannot understand him.

Souness is from an era where giving your best was the minimum requirement and he sees Pogba as a disruptive, uncommitted, waste of talent who is more interested in doing tricks than winning games for his team.

Is that because of a deep lying racist mentality or just because Pogba is a disruptive, uncommitted, waste of talent who is more interested in doing tricks than winning games for his team?

The answer to your question is likely to be a matter of interpretation, and how you interpret these things will likely be based upon certain prejudice.

I was watching Bruno’s interview yesterday and he was talking about Martial’s goal against City, and he was talking about how it wasn’t pre-agreed, just some inventiveness on the fly, and on another day, ‘Martial wouldn’t have read it and it would have looked silly. But players need to try things and take risks’. Do you think if Pogba made that pass instead of Bruno, and Martial didn’t read it, the likes of Souness would have labelled it him ‘trying something flash, trying to be too clever when he should be thinking of the team and crossing it etc’? I think there’s a fair chance that it would been seen as another example of why Pogba is a bit of a joke figure who you can never know what he’s going to do.

I’m not calling it either way, just saying that these things are down to interpretation. Doing skill and taking risks on the pitch to go past players, or catch opponents unaware can be seen as a means to winning a game or just trying to be flash. I’m sure Pogba himself will not feel like he is not driven to win, others may say he isn’t. It’s a matter of opinion really, but the opinion is based on something. I cannot count on 10 hands the amount of times I’ve seen Rooney ‘try and be flash’ and chip a goalkeeper from 25 or 30 yards and score a goal of the season instead of putting his laces through it. I’ve never heard him described as self centred, for example. He’s also not referred to as a ‘disruptive’ player, despite arguably being far more disruptive than Pogba.

Ultimately, I think ‘committed’ has an appearance, as does ‘disruptive, selfish and flashy’. In my opinion, Rooney more easily fits into what a committed winner looks like, and Pogba the latter. At least according to ingrained consensus in the UK.

EDIT: Just to add another comparison between Pogba and Fernandes. Compare the responses to both of their respective penalty styles.
 
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For me, just to weigh in on the race conversation from above, I find these sorts of comments having more of a racial undertone than most.

I was watching Joe Hart’s podcast a while ago and he said there was a thing in the game growing up that you ‘can’t trust a black goalkeeper’. It was rarely said explicitly, but the point of it, he said, was that coaches saw them as too ‘erratic/unserious’ or something of that nature for such a role. Two much clown-like.

This question of attitude to the game always lies below the surface for black players. I don’t think many people of a certain British generation are simply ready for a young black millionaire. The things we like, the personality we have, directly contradicts the things they, in all their wisdom, have concluded is ‘sensible’ or a reasonable interest for a young man. The clothes we like, they have decided is too loud, the music we like is not real music, our dancing is too clowny etc. When in the spotlight, it doesn’t take long before headlines like ‘bad boy’ and ‘bling bling’ etc are used. As far as they are aware, you look like the rappers their kids watch on MTV.

The amount of time I have heard about ‘Pogba’s social media activity’. What does that even mean? He posts nothing offensive on social media. People should check themselves if they think there is a problem with dancing, wearing bright clothes, jewellery etc - and even more so if they feel they can glean an insight to your dedication and determination from it.

The other day, Sancho, Rashford and Kyle Walker were on the front of The Sun with the headline ‘twerking from home’, because they were on Tory Lanez’ Instagram Live where girls were twerking.They posted laughing emojis in the comments. As did Scott McTominay and Jack Wilshere, but they were not mentioned.

All of those ‘he supported this player who was black’ is missing the point massively. There are many black players or people who do not confront you with their ‘blackness’. There are those who due to their tastes or exposure etc operate within the confines that these people have concluded is ‘normal’. He drives a modest car. He dresses like the rest of us. He likes the same sort of girls. He talks like us, doesn’t use the same slang etc. There were many black footballers from eras gone by whose behaviour is not stereotypically ‘black’. There were a few whose was, like Andy Cole for example, who was also slapped with the attitude problem stick, and frankly has his achievements massively overlooked. In today’s game, with the money and exposure, you have plenty of young, rich black players who are now overtly ‘black’ - and almost all of them from what I gather is greeted with disapproval. They go to rap concerts, they like to dance, they do their hair certain ways, jewellery etc, they connect with their African or Caribbean roots. Then you have the Neville’s or Sounesses who feel they are qualified to draw the line as to when that stuff is ‘too much’, or ask what they feel is an honest question of whether they can possibly concentrate on being a professional footballer and get their hair cut every week etc.

Ultimately, our personalities, interests etc are not in keeping with ‘normal’, and in their own words, ‘people wouldn’t mind so much if you deliver on the pitch every weekend’, but you shouldn’t be yourself if you struggle to do that. Maybe you can post a video of you petting your Golden Retriever - that is relatable and on the list of what is normal. Dancing in your front room with your brother? Too much.

One of my biggest issues with Pogba is the off-field complaints get gets are largely direct attacks on who he simply is, which come from his background and culture, and have been used to paint him as an unserious footballer. Of course, the things on the pitch, either way, will be seen as confirmation of that. A poor pass or loss of the ball will spark a long talk about his ‘concentration and attitude’, while his many good games are ‘see, you can see what he can become if he just applies himself’.

The fact that Pogba can post a video dancing in his living room and a Sky Sports presenter could show/mention it to Souness or Keane with a ‘Graeme, have you seen this video, I’m sure you’ll love it’ as a joke tells it’s own story. It’s a non-story. Yet even on Redcafe, the amount of times I’ve read ‘I’m not saying it’s necessarily wrong, but he should be sensible enough to not do it’ regarding Pogba is a problem. He is not required to be who Souness or Caf poster x thinks he should be. Why is the conversation on Sky Sports never ‘why do we have a problem with his hair or dancing?’. Just because everyone in the room all agrees does not validate it at all.

Some will say, ‘it’s not about his hair etc, I just have an issue with him giving the ball away’ or whatever they feel his footballing deficiencies are. The point is, that isn’t true. The complaining about loss of possession is massively disproportionate to the actual losing of possession. If all the complaints were simply about football, you simply couldn’t be talking about one of the best few midfielders in the country. Pogba, as he is now, not when he learns to cut x or y out his game, but right now - is better than almost every midfielder in England. You would not think that at all based on the press he gets, both on here and in the media. We could of course, choose to discuss areas for improvement, nothing wrong with that. But the point is, there are a lot more positives to discuss even from a solely footballing perspective than weaknesses, and would be the case if he were white British. He gives the ball away less than people who do not get criticism for giving the ball away, for example. It’s clearly personal, and the personal stuff is likely based on conclusions drawn on a personality that you likely don’t understand at all. The more recent stuff with Raiola has now provided the perfect cover, and it’s easier to now say it is all on that.

Exhibit one hundred and whatever.

 
Sorry not sorry for the essay!
A brilliant one, saw it only now. On-point dissection of the prejudices and confirmation biases around Pogba. Just want to highlight this part in particular:
One of my biggest issues with Pogba is the off-field complaints get gets are largely direct attacks on who he simply is, which come from his background and culture, and have been used to paint him as an unserious footballer. Of course, the things on the pitch, either way, will be seen as confirmation of that. A poor pass or loss of the ball will spark a long talk about his ‘concentration and attitude’, while his many good games are ‘see, you can see what he can become if he just applies himself’.
I (non-United fan) tried to argue against this stuff for about 1,5 seasons, but gave up at some point. He just couldn't win. When - in light of deficient fluidity and team play - he took matters in his own hands, with all the inevitable risk involved, he was "playing for himself" and "lacking football intelligence" (another one of these tropes). But if he "kept it simple" as demanded, it was claimed he "looks disinterested" and "can't take the game by the scruff of its neck". It was maddening.