Glaring systematic problems with EtHs tactics

[Lentwood]

Wasn't there a tweet from the Athletic the other day, that a sacking would cost around 17.5 million pounds?

Well we've made our bed with EtH so ultimately it costs what it costs.

I'm talking about the next manager we hire. I'd be offering them a 2+1 deal with a minimum target of Champions League in the 2nd season.

Think we need to stop looking for the next SAF (a man who's here for two decades +) and focus on managers who can come in and make a difference. If they last four or five seasons or more...great...but we shouldn't be thinking "this appointment is a failure if they don't manage us for a decade"

 

[NZT-One]

Well we've made our bed with EtH so ultimately it costs what it costs.

I'm talking about the next manager we hire. I'd be offering them a 2+1 deal with a minimum target of Champions League in the 2nd season.

Think we need to stop looking for the next SAF (a man who's here for two decades +) and focus on managers who can come in and make a difference. If they last four or five seasons or more...great...but we shouldn't be thinking "this appointment is a failure if they don't manage us for a decade"

But not too much of a difference. Because when the results fall away, we re-shuffle again. No just kidding. I get your point. I think, the difference between your and my standpoint is the definition of success. There is no question that there are many many doubts whether ETH is able to make any change at all. But I hope, we aren't looking for a manager who will feel the need to "lowblock, go for counters" and lets not act as if that wouldn't be a realistic scenario. In my eyes, we need somebody, whose ideas of football are close to Ten Hags, to make sure, the player material fits as good as possible. To me, this particular season would be a success if we could finish it having Garnacho established as a 1st team player and Mainoo full of confidence for overcoming his first plateau. We have a pressing organisation right there that is functional can be applied with the 1st team and most fringe players. Hojlund and Zirkzee have decent seasons scoring wise and become stable 1st teamers just like Amad. If those are checked, I don't care where we finish on the table. I can understand not being a popular stance and obviously - it would be way better to combine all my points with finish in the top5 but I don't think that is attainable at the same time. We can't just finish the season having Casemiro and Eriksen as regulars. Probably still waiting for Shaw for finally be available and in form. If that is the status quo come summer - we are in deep trouble - even if we end up in the Top4.

 

[RiqCantona]

Well we've made our bed with EtH so ultimately it costs what it costs.

I'm talking about the next manager we hire. I'd be offering them a 2+1 deal with a minimum target of Champions League in the 2nd season.

Think we need to stop looking for the next SAF (a man who's here for two decades +) and focus on managers who can come in and make a difference. If they last four or five seasons or more...great...but we shouldn't be thinking "this appointment is a failure if they don't manage us for a decade"

That sounds like the Chelsea model, which we are not. We went down that path from 2013 to 2022 and it hasn't worked. Its not our culture. Besides, look at our closest competitors in City, Liverpool, and Arsenal. They stuck with their managers for a long time and built a model around them.

 

[RiqCantona]

Can anyone tell me, what is ETH's tactics and game model? Putting results aside, ETH is 2 years in - and there should be some sort of identity developing. Do we see anything distinctive?

 

[thisisnottaken1]

I felt, that the end of last season, where he reverted back (to a degree) was also an adaption. Same for this year, where how we set up looks more like his first season. But it is difficult to tell for now, given that Eriksen is an important player and how he plays influences the team. Might just as well be the case that his lack of mobility makes the formation look different, who knows.

I get that it sounds very plausible, that he is that stubborn guy who tries to get his will against all reasonable considerations. I don't see that to be the case, I'd agree through the middle of last season, where the injuries were high, I also thought he should adapt now as the player material was obviously not suited but overall, I think there isn't much to back that claim of being overly stubborn. And to be perfectly honest, I am actually thankful he isn't just ripping it apart right now due to some suboptimal results. We need to break some of those blockages, as long as we always get back to "keep it simple" as soon as there is some discomfort, we aren't going to evolve.

As said in another thread (I believe) I think it comes down to what exactly are the expectations for this season. I haven't seen us being relevant in any way shape or form, probably thats the main reason, why I am less impulsive about the results. I mean, I get it, the results are certainly lacking but it will be a difficult task for any manager to simultaneously repair the broken bike, tune it to improve its performance and try to get into top 4 of the competition, where opponents already have mostly tuned up bikes. I am not hanging on ETH, but I don't think, there is much hope for significant change. Obviously, if we are dumb enough and bring in some hottalker who'll setup with a deep block and have us countering, we aren't going to lose as often. Looking at the current threads, maybe we really have to re-do that cycle once again so a few more will take the lesson.

You are away that every sacking comes with a payment to the sacked manager, aren't you? It is going to cost a lot, just to "give it a shot" and when the successor fails, there will always be enough fans to ask to give him a transfer window and lets see from there. The decision how to replace ETH is very important and we if we don't get it right, it can mean even more time wasted.

Well said. It is a bit shocking seeing such mindsets especially in our fanbase, given that they must have witnessed what happened when we went through Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, Ole and ETH.

This paragraph is exactly it. We cannot just sign anyone Willy nilly.

 

[romufc]

Can anyone tell me, what is ETH's tactics and game model? Putting results aside, ETH is 2 years in - and there should be some sort of identity developing. Do we see anything distinctive?

Yes, I can see his tactics and game model.

On the ball, the model is for short passing, the 2 CB must pass between them at least 10 times before the ball can be moved into different direction, once they have done that they have 2 choices, pass short to the full back and get the return or, if the opponent presses, go back to Onana and let him launch it out of play and we restart with a throw in to opponent.

Of the ball, its pretend to press high, hoping the other team makes a mistake, because I have seen numerous times our front players press but as soon as their CB decides to make a vertical run instead of passing, neither Bruno or Zirkzee follow them, they throw their hands thinking... omg how dare you ?

The games we dont press high, our players are told to act as mannequins in a mid / low block so the opponent uses it as training passing it about and waiting to find a pass forward, once that happens, the opponent overload a side, mainly left knowing Rashford wont bother and have a overlap / underlap and cut back for a goal.

I am surprised to see so many people who dont see the style of play and game model, its the same in every game we play.

 

[Musclehead]

He’s the most tactically inept manager we’ve had since Fergie and probably one of the worst in the league.

The fact that so many managers, pundits and fans have been able to completely pick apart his tactical set up over and over again over the past two years, and he’s done nothing to change it, is staggering.

Can’t argue that the man hasn’t died on his sword.

Just to confirm, are you saying Fergie was tactically inept?

 

[Musclehead]

Yes, I can see his tactics and game model.

On the ball, the model is for short passing, the 2 CB must pass between them at least 10 times before the ball can be moved into different direction, once they have done that they have 2 choices, pass short to the full back and get the return or, if the opponent presses, go back to Onana and let him launch it out of play and we restart with a throw in to opponent.

Of the ball, its pretend to press high, hoping the other team makes a mistake, because I have seen numerous times our front players press but as soon as their CB decides to make a vertical run instead of passing, neither Bruno or Zirkzee follow them, they throw their hands thinking... omg how dare you ?

The games we dont press high, our players are told to act as mannequins in a mid / low block so the opponent uses it as training passing it about and waiting to find a pass forward, once that happens, the opponent overload a side, mainly left knowing Rashford wont bother and have a overlap / underlap and cut back for a goal.

I am surprised to see so many people who dont see the style of play and game model, its the same in every game we play.

I would say the passing emphasis is on sideways and backwards. The funniest thing, rarely do any of the MF try to beat someone 1 v 1. That is strictly forbidden. Then when you play out, as I have said previously, Dalot slots into MF rather than stay wide and in position for Martinez.
Offensively it is strictly forbidden to have more than 2 in the box for crosses and Bruno's mandate is to give poor crosses repeatedly but not to his own players. Dynamic positioning is outlawed and no one slots back if on of the WB, yes they play more like a WB than a FB, decides to press upfield.
Lastly confusion, confuse the heck out of your own team hoping this confuses the opponent.
And yeah, cannot believe that Bruno's suspension is overturned, was hoping to see how the team stacked up less our poor leader, the punishment continues!

 

[acnumber9]

That sounds like the Chelsea model, which we are not. We went down that path from 2013 to 2022 and it hasn't worked. Its not our culture. Besides, look at our closest competitors in City, Liverpool, and Arsenal. They stuck with their managers for a long time and built a model around them.

We’ve had 4 permanent managers in that time period. Chelsea have had 8. In that time Chelsea have won two league titles and one Champions League. Whatever our current model is, isn’t working.

 

[romufc]

I would say the passing emphasis is on sideways and backwards. The funniest thing, rarely do any of the MF try to beat someone 1 v 1. That is strictly forbidden. Then when you play out, as I have said previously, Dalot slots into MF rather than stay wide and in position for Martinez.
Offensively it is strictly forbidden to have more than 2 in the box for crosses and Bruno's mandate is to give poor crosses repeatedly but not to his own players. Dynamic positioning is outlawed and no one slots back if on of the WB, yes they play more like a WB than a FB, decides to press upfield.
Lastly confusion, confuse the heck out of your own team hoping this confuses the opponent.
And yeah, cannot believe that Bruno's suspension is overturned, was hoping to see how the team stacked up less our poor leader, the punishment continues!

Yep, its all about confusing the opponents, but in reality what happens is our players get confused and the opponents are concentrated in their task because they are well coached and motivated.

Bruno... just when I thought yes 3 games without him but it doesn't matter ETH will get sacked for not seing this.

Like Ole, Bruno and Rashford will end up being his downfall.

 

[Musclehead]

This paragraph is exactly it. We cannot just sign anyone Willy nilly.

So at what point do you raise the white flag and say enough is enough? Is it when they are in relegation? Is it 3 pts from relegation? Keep in mind revenues need to be met which places higher emphasis finishing at least close to the top 4. If not with the signings they have had, they will be stuck for the near future. This is starting to get scary now. At the very least the team is too complacent and needs to be woken up. RVN, Scholes, Neville heck even Keane could become interim and perhaps have a decent honeymoon stage, with ETH this season is now close to becoming lost.

 

[thisisnottaken1]

So at what point do you raise the white flag and say enough is enough? Is it when they are in relegation? Is it 3 pts from relegation? Keep in mind revenues need to be met which places higher emphasis finishing at least close to the top 4. If not with the signings they have had, they will be stuck for the near future. This is starting to get scary now. At the very least the team is too complacent and needs to be woken up. RVN, Scholes, Neville heck even Keane could become interim and perhaps have a decent honeymoon stage, with ETH this season is now close to becoming lost.

We absolutely should be sacking him, I’m not saying that we shouldn’t. I’m just saying that we need to make a wise decision in choosing the next manager.

 

[Hughes35]

Most annoying / baffling tactics from ETH.

1. The utterly scattergun and random press. There seems to be no reason why the press starts and no player who sets the trap. Players just randomly press when they feel like it which leaves gaping holes.

2. CBs taking goal kicks to the keeper. Why would this ever be a good idea? It just invites pressure and boxes 3 players in your own 6 yard box. Just weird.

3. The new tactic of playing short passes around the defence / goalkeeper, then Dalot making a run behind their back line for a long ball over the top. We do this every game and it's obviously a manager tactic that will never work regardless of the players involved.

4. Playing with inverted wingers AND inverted full backs who come in to midfield. it leaves zero width and is a major reason we get no service the the striker.

5. Playing a high press but buying and playing slow defenders like Martinez, De Ligt, Evans. It either means they sit deep and the gaps in midfield are huge, or they press high and get caught by runners.

6. Playing with two number 10's that occupy the same space. We had it with Bruno and Weghorst and now we have it with Bruno and Zirkzee. You can only play one of them. One needs to run behind, or you have it like Kane/Son or Firmino/Salah where you play 3 deeper CM's, the striker drops deep and the wingers run in behind.

All the above are just common sense basics that any decent amateur team would identify and cut out. Somehow ETH sticks by it and it's clear he won't ever change.

Should have been out of his misery months ago.

 

[Xeque_279]

3. The new tactic of playing short passes around the defence / goalkeeper, then Dalot making a run behind their back line for a long ball over the top. We do this every game and it's obviously a manager tactic that will never work regardless of the players involved.

The most annoying of all. WHY is DALOT our furthest forward making runs in behind. Doesn't make any sense at all.

Dalot coming infield also means that when Rash has the ball outwide he has 2 to take on and has no overlap behind him. The inverted full back trend is really killing us.

 

[nickm]

The most annoying of all. WHY is DALOT our furthest forward making runs in behind. Doesn't make any sense at all.

Dalot coming infield also means that when Rash has the ball outwide he has 2 to take on and has no overlap behind him. The inverted full back trend is really killing us.

Don't think it's a coincidence that Rashford's form dropped off when the LB started to push on like this.

 

[Hughes35]

The most annoying of all. WHY is DALOT our furthest forward making runs in behind. Doesn't make any sense at all.

Dalot coming infield also means that when Rash has the ball outwide he has 2 to take on and has no overlap behind him. The inverted full back trend is really killing us.

It really is staggering.

It also looks like a fad that will die out. Pep had great success with it but I really don't think it's the future of football.

For me the ideal is that what your RB overlaps your left back comes in to CM and vice versa.

The more you dog in to what ETH does, the more it hurts your brain.

 

[Lentwood]

That sounds like the Chelsea model, which we are not. We went down that path from 2013 to 2022 and it hasn't worked. Its not our culture. Besides, look at our closest competitors in City, Liverpool, and Arsenal. They stuck with their managers for a long time and built a model around them.

Cause and effect is muddled there. They didn't say "let's appoint a coach and stick with them until they achieve success". They appointed various coaches and then stuck with the coaches that produced better performances and ultimately results.

Emery achieved far better results at Arsenal than EtH has achieved and was sacked. Brendan Rogers achieved far better results than EtH has achieved and was sacked. Mancini and Pelligrini both achieved better results than EtH and were sacked.

 

[Marcus]

The problem with his tactics is that they are in reality not implementable. So the players have given up trying.

 

[fps]

It really is staggering.

It also looks like a fad that will die out. Pep had great success with it but I really don't think it's the future of football.

For me the ideal is that what your RB overlaps your left back comes in to CM and vice versa.

The more you dog in to what ETH does, the more it hurts your brain.

It's making me barking mad.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

The most annoying of all. WHY is DALOT our furthest forward making runs in behind. Doesn't make any sense at all.

Dalot coming infield also means that when Rash has the ball outwide he has 2 to take on and has no overlap behind him. The inverted full back trend is really killing us.

All of a sudden the links to Ben Chilwell and Marcos Alonso make a lot more sense - if this is EtH's core tactical principle, might as well have a LB who's elite going forward...

 

[golden_blunder]

Yes, I can see his tactics and game model.

On the ball, the model is for short passing, the 2 CB must pass between them at least 10 times before the ball can be moved into different direction, once they have done that they have 2 choices, pass short to the full back and get the return or, if the opponent presses, go back to Onana and let him launch it out of play and we restart with a throw in to opponent.

Of the ball, its pretend to press high, hoping the other team makes a mistake, because I have seen numerous times our front players press but as soon as their CB decides to make a vertical run instead of passing, neither Bruno or Zirkzee follow them, they throw their hands thinking... omg how dare you ?

The games we dont press high, our players are told to act as mannequins in a mid / low block so the opponent uses it as training passing it about and waiting to find a pass forward, once that happens, the opponent overload a side, mainly left knowing Rashford wont bother and have a overlap / underlap and cut back for a goal.

I am surprised to see so many people who dont see the style of play and game model, its the same in every game we play.

 

[golden_blunder]

All of a sudden the links to Ben Chilwell and Marcos Alonso make a lot more sense - if this is EtH's core tactical principle, might as well have a LB who's elite going forward...

If that was the case why didn’t he keep Fernandez and try to develop him!

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

If that was the case why didn’t he keep Fernandez and try to develop him!

Hadn't he already left in the summer by the time the Chilwell and Alonso links came up? Or have I got my timelines all muddled?

 

[golden_blunder]

Hadn't he already left in the summer by the time the Chilwell and Alonso links came up? Or have I got my timelines all muddled?

Yeah but that’s my point, we already had one with the potential to be better than the others but we sold him

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Yeah but that’s my point, we already had one with the potential to be better than the others but we sold him

True - but Ten Hag hadn't cooked up this genius plan to throw one of your defenders as far out of position as possible yet. Naturally the best time to think of creative tactics is right after you've sold the players needed to make them work.

 

[Smores]

Most annoying / baffling tactics from ETH.

1. The utterly scattergun and random press. There seems to be no reason why the press starts and no player who sets the trap. Players just randomly press when they feel like it which leaves gaping holes.

2. CBs taking goal kicks to the keeper. Why would this ever be a good idea? It just invites pressure and boxes 3 players in your own 6 yard box. Just weird.

3. The new tactic of playing short passes around the defence / goalkeeper, then Dalot making a run behind their back line for a long ball over the top. We do this every game and it's obviously a manager tactic that will never work regardless of the players involved.

4. Playing with inverted wingers AND inverted full backs who come in to midfield. it leaves zero width and is a major reason we get no service the the striker.

5. Playing a high press but buying and playing slow defenders like Martinez, De Ligt, Evans. It either means they sit deep and the gaps in midfield are huge, or they press high and get caught by runners.

6. Playing with two number 10's that occupy the same space. We had it with Bruno and Weghorst and now we have it with Bruno and Zirkzee. You can only play one of them. One needs to run behind, or you have it like Kane/Son or Firmino/Salah where you play 3 deeper CM's, the striker drops deep and the wingers run in behind.

All the above are just common sense basics that any decent amateur team would identify and cut out. Somehow ETH sticks by it and it's clear he won't ever change.

Should have been out of his misery months ago.

Number 6 is an odd one because his Ajax team were all about movement to create space. The midfielders would push high to drag the midfielder but an attacker would then drop to fill the vacated space to give an easier pass. We just occupy the same space and leave the gaps open.

If that's his plan how difficult can it be to get these players to work in such a system.

 

[Woziak]

Don't think it's a coincidence that Rashford's form dropped off when the LB started to push on like this.

And they we have it, first season Luke shaw actually played 75/80% of games and locked down the left side, came inside went on the overlap, played at Left CB, Weghorst did all his work and did the tracking back allowing Rashford to be the lone player who stayed in between the right back and the right CB.

This is the only sympathy, I have for Marcus, as an elite player he should be able to adapt to a deeper role where he has to track back as by his own admission he doesn’t like playing CF when he’s actually quite good at it in the right system.

Right now with no fit left back, we need to try a new system with 3421 and make sure we are far more compact and difficult to score against. Dalot and Bruno need a rest right now and I’d Play De Ligt, Maguire, L Martinez as a back 3, Mazraoui(RWB), Casemiro, Ugarte, Amad(LWB), K Mainoo (8/10), C Eriksen (8/10), R Hojlund or M Rashford as 9 depending on Hojlund’s fitness.

When Yoro, Mount and Bruno show full fitness and form they should replace De Ligt or Maguire, Casemiro and Eriksen until we get a solid pattern of play.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

The most annoying of all. WHY is DALOT our furthest forward making runs in behind. Doesn't make any sense at all.

Dalot coming infield also means that when Rash has the ball outwide he has 2 to take on and has no overlap behind him. The inverted full back trend is really killing us.

A lot of responsibility has been put on Dalot to make the right choices in moments. Sometimes he doesn’t sometimes he does. It is something that will come with experience. Shaw played a similar role under Ole during Covid and we played some of our best football.

The point of Dalot going inside is to support midfield ie Ugarte so it becomes 2 in there meaning Bruno and Mainoo can push forward and play as 2 x 10’s . Therefore giving Rashford more people to play off of, by keeping his width as well theoretically this should create space that he can exploit.

Our issues so far are coming from Bruno breaking tactical structures, people being lazy and not working hard enough, a general inability to pass the ball and quite frankly people making the wrong decisions on the field.

A lot of those are player related, hopefully something that gets fixed over time when the players become more familiar with what is required of them.

 

[Malone_Post]

Just to confirm, are you saying Fergie was tactically inept?

No?

 

[RiqCantona]

Emery achieved far better results at Arsenal than EtH has achieved and was sacked. Brendan Rogers achieved far better results than EtH has achieved and was sacked. Mancini and Pelligrini both achieved better results than EtH and were sacked.

Arsenal have had 2 managers after Wenger in 6 years. City have had 2 managers in 11 years. Pool have had 3 managers in 12 years. The issue has not been about sacking managers after poor form/results, the issue has been that we've gotten all the appointments wrong after sacking them. Even ETH whom we all thought would succeed, is failing.

 

[Lentwood]

Arsenal have had 2 managers after Wenger in 6 years. City have had 2 managers in 11 years. Pool have had 3 managers in 12 years. The issue has not been about sacking managers after poor form/results, the issue has been that we've gotten all the appointments wrong after sacking them. Even ETH whom we all thought would succeed, is failing.

That's not a reason to stop trying though is it...I can't work out whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with my point because I'm lost in this thread now....but the point i am / was making is that we appointed EtH and he has proven himself to be incapable of delivering results. Therefore the logical thing to do is sack him and move on. Pep, Klopp and Arteta showed they could coach their ideas into their respective teams from the outset, and so they earnt time - which is the key distinction....managers aren't given time, they earn it

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

His failure is simple. He does not know exactly how shit he is.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

In his first year after 0-4 by Brentford he immediately consolidated the defense. He himself said playing aggressively doesn't mean concede 4. Team then played more compact and discipline. That was the time most fans assumed this is the right man to take the club forward.

I don't understand what stopping him doing the same? We have better defense now. Is that the management/Jim who has pressured him in playing this suicidal tactics? I mean I refused to believe ETH is some kind of clueless guy. I am not saying it is not his fault but there has to be something else too going on behind the scene.

Managers learn and adapt. Not ETH