Agree with this.
There’s no way on this planet that any poster on an internet forum can identify something the coach and his management team havent so it feels like it’s much more simple than tactics and who goes where in a formation.
Glaring systematic problems with EtHs tactics
- Thread starter Lentwood
- Start date
Agree with this.
There’s no way on this planet that any poster on an internet forum can identify something the coach and his management team havent so it feels like it’s much more simple than tactics and who goes where in a formation.
This has been an issue for our attack since the first season. People instead blamed Ronaldo and Weighorst, ignoring the fact that we continually failed to create real chances for them. Any penetration we have that is not on the break is dependent on our wingers' ability to beat multiple men or on our team's dominance, which allows players in midfield to link up with the wingers to create overloads. The problem is that we are rarely in a position to overwhelm our opponents. Furthermore, option 2 demands a high level of fluidity, leaving us vulnerable to simple counterattacks.
In the dutch league, Ajax may have had the physical advantage and space & time to coordinate these fluid wide overloads. However, in the Premier League, unless you are Man City, its far too complex to do. It requires you to have total domination of the game to fulfill, and the cost of trying it, is a lot of failed attacks that open you up to the counter. These attacks fail because they require too many passes and movements to be successful.This complete dependence on the flanks ( without overlap support) for attacking penetration completely isolates our strikers, who have to depend on quick turnovers to actually have a chance at attacking.
I'm saying this because everyone understands that our defensive and pressing structures are poor, but I don't think they understand that it's not Rashford or Hojlund's lack of ability that makes us tame in attack, its a clear systemic flaw.
In the dutch league, Ajax may have had the physical advantage and space & time to coordinate these fluid wide overloads. However, in the Premier League, unless you are Man City, its far too complex to do. It requires you to have total domination of the game to fulfill, and the cost of trying it, is a lot of failed attacks that open you up to the counter. These attacks fail because they require too many passes and movements to be successful.This complete dependence on the flanks ( without overlap support) for attacking penetration completely isolates our strikers, who have to depend on quick turnovers to actually have a chance at attacking.
I'm saying this because everyone understands that our defensive and pressing structures are poor, but I don't think they understand that it's not Rashford or Hojlund's lack of ability that makes us tame in attack, its a clear systemic flaw.
He has Dalot playing in midfield because he sees better managers doing it. The problem is, they dominate possession and so don’t get caught out of position. We don’t, concede regularly because of it and instead of realising we can’t do it, he just keeps doing it.
Basically every 6 games on average (21 times out of 121 games), United's defensive system collapses and United concede at least 3 goals. That's a serious set-up/tactical problem. This is over 3 years, it's not just recently.
Im saying it doesnt matter what tactics you employ if the players arent motivated. As Lombardi said, any idiot can draw tactics on a white board, the top top coaches are getting inside the players heads mentally.
I can guarantee that ten hag said yesterday this is what we will do. This is what Mainoo will do, this is what bruno will do. But it doesnt matter, go long, possession based, counter attack, transition attacks, if the players are not motivated, none of the tactics will work.
For example, the spurs players were motivated - they were winning all the 50/50s, they were crisp and sharp with their passing and one twos. The reason being they were fired up. We werent - because ten has has lost the players.
What Ferguson did with us was about 75% psychology and 25% tactics. We won the league with Anderson and Clevely in MF. He had the whole club motivated, not just for one match but for a season. Every player was giving 110%. We won titles on the training pitch as Ali once made a comment about.
Today with us, one player would try and another player wouldnt bother. The whole team has to be at it. And they have to be at it 110% or else it wont work. We werent disciplined at all. We looked like a managerless pub team. Like i suggest the players are not motivated at all. They have given up on ten hag. When you are motivated, you work harder, your touch is better, your passing is better, etc. When you are not motivated, you play like we did today.
I dont know who to bring in. Build a time machine and go back and throw millions at getting pep would probably be the best bet. I apologize as well if I sound pretentious and conceited.
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Biggest issues for me:
Dalot at LB. Should have signed a LB and continued with Dalot at RB.
The inverted full backs does absolutely nothing but create our defenders being out of position. Just stop trying to copy Pep when your clearly can’t achieve it.
Extremely high line with defenders flying into challenges that are high risk if unsuccessful on the half way line!
Lack of midfield numbers due to Bruno given the free roam role. This has to stop now as he’s not good enough to be given that role.
Making Rashford undroppable. Playing him on the left when Garnacho is a much better player.
Signing a false 9 when we needed an out right striker. Now expecting a player with no history of scoring to be our talisman. We desperately need a goal scoring striker. Hojlund is looking like a typical United signing. Injured too often.
Dalot at LB. Should have signed a LB and continued with Dalot at RB.
The inverted full backs does absolutely nothing but create our defenders being out of position. Just stop trying to copy Pep when your clearly can’t achieve it.
Extremely high line with defenders flying into challenges that are high risk if unsuccessful on the half way line!
Lack of midfield numbers due to Bruno given the free roam role. This has to stop now as he’s not good enough to be given that role.
Making Rashford undroppable. Playing him on the left when Garnacho is a much better player.
Signing a false 9 when we needed an out right striker. Now expecting a player with no history of scoring to be our talisman. We desperately need a goal scoring striker. Hojlund is looking like a typical United signing. Injured too often.
I think it's a fair point to say that Jose, Ole, and EtH have all had some limited success in playing quite a pragmatic style of football with little variations here and there at first but have all failed when trying to move to the next step.
As I said in another thread, you can't say EtH isn't instructing his players to be aggressive and win the ball high up it's just failing miserably too often. There's a clip of the game today where Mazraoui loses a duel high up the pitch and then De Ligt immediately goes to win it too but loses as well and suddenly there's a massive amount of space for Spurs to run into. How many times is Martinez doing this as well? It's definitely instructions to be super aggressive but it just doesn't work for us under EtH.
Agree with all that.
Properly motivated players with their heads truly in the game do everything quickly, on instinct.
You can visibly see our lot overthinking everything, they look terrified.
In terms of tactics I'm hoping the midfield is simply a case of a new manager because whoever we play there, it's the same mess.
What's funny is our fans think he's a much better tactician than he is. He uses a few fancy words and because he's dutch and had a good spell in a much weaker league, they've just assumed that his tactical insight is unshakeable. It should have been clear ages ago that it's not. Yes his man management skills are poor, he's terrible when talking to the press, he's poor at managing his squad and his in game management is terrible. But he's also a poor tactician. Its the reason why he's such a poor in-game manager; even when he sees issues, he doesn't know how to change them
A thousand percent. If you are properly motivated like peps city, you do everything better. Your touch is better, your decision process, you make those runs that lead to a goal.
We look look like we have no one managing us at present.
Football is not that simple. Simply telling someone to press doesn't make it effective. The shape and patterns have to work together to make it easy for players to execute. Pep, for example, started employing inverted full backs as he noticed in his first season the pace and power of the premier league exposed his shape and tactics to counters. A coaches job is to put a collective group of players in a position to succeed on the pitch and succeed as a collective. Ten Hag's tactics have consistently done the opposite of that.
To me his biggest failing is that he doesn’t know how to setup a functioning midfield.
This is incorrect. Dalot as an inverted fullback, has been used occasionally, but more often than not as the default in the last two games with Ugarte to provide a better passing structure to the team as Ugarte isn't that guy. Prior to this he's mainly been wider and higher.
It might not be working, but it's being decided upon for a reason that isn't just aping other managers
I completely agree and it's on EtH. I'm saying that he does want us to be a more aggressive team but he's completely failing at implementing that.
Trying to see things from his perspective, i think he wanted us to move away from the sort of set up we had at times with Matic +1 or McFred into a more dynamic team but it's gone horribly wrong (or rather, it's never actually been right since last season). That's why he'll be sacked-it just hasn't worked.
All of this has been obvious for more than 18 months. Some of us were saying it was utter madness to keep him this season, but of course fan sentiment being what it is, half the fan base flip flopped because of one match, and pressured for us to keep him.
He has been out of his depth for ages. The fact some are acting surprised how bad we are, now, boggles belief. Did no-one else watch us last season? Injuries be damned. None of the players were in the right positions, doesn’t matter who the players are if the team is set up like a circus act.
Christ on a fecking cracker.
He has been out of his depth for ages. The fact some are acting surprised how bad we are, now, boggles belief. Did no-one else watch us last season? Injuries be damned. None of the players were in the right positions, doesn’t matter who the players are if the team is set up like a circus act.
Christ on a fecking cracker.
How would you fix this from a tactical perspective? My honest opinion is Rashford and Bruno need a spell on the bench due to constant bad performances. I'd also drop Mainoo for a few games as he seems to have dipped since the Euros. I think the number of games is catching up on him.
--------------------- Onana---------------------
Mazraroui --- De Ligt ----- Martinez ---- Dalot
------Casemiro ------Eriksen-----Ugarte-------
Amad ------------------------------------------Garnacho
--------------------------Rasmus-----------------------------
I'd probably do something like this with pack the midfield to make it harder to play through us. Eventually putting Mainoo back in after a few weeks rest. Hopefully at some point Shaw or Malacia would be fit to play LB.
--------------------- Onana---------------------
Mazraroui --- De Ligt ----- Martinez ---- Dalot
------Casemiro ------Eriksen-----Ugarte-------
Amad ------------------------------------------Garnacho
--------------------------Rasmus-----------------------------
I'd probably do something like this with pack the midfield to make it harder to play through us. Eventually putting Mainoo back in after a few weeks rest. Hopefully at some point Shaw or Malacia would be fit to play LB.
Has to be remembered as well in his first season, as soon as Eriksen and Casemiro were out we reverted right back to the football that got Ole sacked.
OP is correct that the gaps are way too big at the moment, and we lack the intensity and physicality to play it long.
I didn't really notice it until Ole's second full season (finished 2nd), when Bruno was pushing into the striker position, making it a kind of 4-1-1-4. The midfield was some combination of Pogba, Fred, McT, Matic, and I guess their strengths (Pogba's long passing, Fred's energy, Matic's defensive positioning) covered up enough for the insane system. It seemed to have been fixed by ETH in the first season with Casemiro sitting and Eriksen playing quite conservatively. 2 proper midfielders who complimented each other and could stay full-time in midfield positions.
It's turned to shit since the very first game of last season, where it's become a 4-1-5. Everyone but the DM (and often, even the fullbacks and a centreback) go mindlessly streaming foward leaving the DM and one centreback alone for the inevitable counter.
His problem is that his attacking tactics rely too much on inverted wingers. This causes every striker to suffer, run like headless chickens and see fewer scoring chances, as the wingers are focused on cutting inside rather than creating chances. While this might work in some matches and may upset big teams in cups, it's not sustainable for the long run in league games, especially in the PL. It's easy to contain and outplay a team that's so predictable and one-dimensional.
He’s been stepping into midfield from the start of last season. And we’ve fundamentally shit since then. He’s aping other managers because he has no ideas of his own.
Well firstly most look motivated, only maybe 1-2 don't, and the enthusiasm doesn't decide the setup. No one it talking about the top managers, we are not doing the basics right, which are coming from how eth has taught us to play.
Spurs were no more motivated than we were, they were just setup to win the midfield.
SAF would not be able to manager United in the league today the way he did before.
@Lentwood : that's actually a great OP
Yes he has been for a while as part of a number of different structures, but the last two games it has been the default
And it has never been to anything other than our detriment. It doesn’t help us control games and just leaves us short out wide.
Thanks....even a stopped clock...
He's chopped and changed and rotated players and he's got it wrong. Why play Eriksen 3 straight games for a start, Fc20 he should have been changed at half time. Because with him in the side we were better. And he decided to not play him v spurs. That's because he was knackered. Amad changed for Rashford again gets that wrong. Ugarte is supposed to be a breaker up of play then puts him in a CM 2,
I'm getting fed up with the guy and the Fc20 game was the end for me, not spurs at home
I'm getting fed up with the guy and the Fc20 game was the end for me, not spurs at home
I thought the point of inverting a fullback was either to add another body to rest defence or to add another body to create passing angles / help with ball retention
EtHs inverted full backs achieve neither of these objectives. Dalot seems to almost play like an inside forward at times, but to what end / for what purpose I don't know
If you, a caftard, can see all those issues, why aren't the people in charge of our football ?Thanks....even a stopped clock...
Well I was going to make the same point.
I have at best a casual interest in football nowadays and yet the problems are obvious to me and many others on here.
Which is a difficult preset to do... Because it is next to impossible to judge a plan without considering the execution of that plan.
Definitely a big problem I agree. But to me, this probably isn't so much the positioning itself but the organisation - the match is in motion and as the team moves, we are losing our structure. It is something, that should go away over time. But for such synergies to form, we also have to stick to one system...
Thats definitely a problem. But at the same time, our wide positioning is also stretching the opposition to create more space in the centre of the pitch. It isn't an ETH specific thing but very common. Two sides of the medal, risk or reward. But I agree with you, too often it comes with no reward for us.
The tighter it gets, the higher the technical requirements on your players. So yeah, Pep obviously goes for this and in principle it is right, but when done correctly, our long balls are a good way of stretching the opposition. Especially one that tried to stay close to each other for short passing.
Thats part of the story - the wide players keep their width to stretch the back line - the striker occupies the CBs and the other attacker is supposed to keep the oppo DM busy - by pushing two 8s up, it should overload that area. The idea makes sense but for it to work, it needs good organisation and suited players. Without those, the risk-reward-ratio can quickly turn against you.
Thats also a pretty common thing these days. Most teams when in possession form a back three and one part from that backline will start supporting a different are on the pitch. The idea itself makes sense - the question is whether our players are suited for it.
I agree, I think, we are overdoing the fluidity part to a certain extent. Fluidity makes sense but I feel for some of our players it might be too much too handle at the minute, especially given that it is a collective thing - so even if one player does his part, he could still look awful when the next player doesn't.
This has always been a spectrum. I agree though, for the intensity our attackers press at times, the line should be higher. But for a long time, we had players there who were very uncomfortable pushing up. Which lead to that donut phenomenon - where the attackers push up while the defenders only push up hesitantly leading to a hole in the centre to form to bring shame to every player who is left there to take on opposition players at speed, in numbers. Mostly alone. Again, it is a risk-reward thing but it is something, that takes time to get instilled.
We definitely overdo it. But at the same time, I always feel that ETH (and many other coaches) happily surpass the midfield by simply making long passes, so it isn't a ETH specific thing but I agree, it would be better to get that under control.
I think, this is mostly down to your problem no. 1.
Not sure they are really inverted given they are instructed to hold the width. Issue with them is, we employ no wingers there but wing forwards who aren't looking to swing in crosses but try to get at the end of things. Add to that our fullbacks stand out for being unproductive in terms of exploiting space in the last third and you got what we see there so often.
This sounds awfully as if I am trying to rectify ETH. not my intention but some of the things you observe aren't any crazy ETH specific things but rather common things that simply fail for various reasons for us. Be that some players with very specific skillsets (that aren't the most modern), be that a rather subpar overall workrate and often times lacking intensity, be that the apparent lack of any form of organised pressing structure for years which set our players back. ETH has now to pay off the debt that the previous decision makers amassed. Which doesn't mean, that he is a poor victim and shouldn't be judged - he should - but nobody should fall for the illusion that the formentioned issues would simply go away as soon as the name of the manager changes.
He still wasn't right. He was just a different problem.
Someone said the players have gave up on him, I still feel the way they treated Ronaldo (rightly or wrongly) that’s when the players started doubting him. Big ego and stubborn with nothing to back it
Spurs were way more motivated than us, way more. They were winning all the 50/50s, their passing was sharp and accurate, they were working harder than us. Thats because they were fired up. Think back to when you were playing sport, if you were fired up, everything came easier.
We on the other hand were second to all the 50/50s. Players were just safely passing it. Poor pass completion rate. We looked managerless. One player would try and another wouldnt etc.
All the top top managers are great motivators - then you give the tactics employed a chance to come to fruition. Ferguson even said he had read books on Vince Lombardi, that he used lie awake at night trying to come up with anecdotes to tell the players to inspire them.
What pep is doing with city is he has those players fired up, they want to win and they hate other teams. I can guarantee his demeanor behind closed doors is different to that when he is giving interviews. He has those city players wanting to win, to give 110%, then he tells them the tactics. Its like Lombardi said, winning isnt everything, but wanting to win is. We didnt even want to be out there today the players have given up on ten hag.
I guarantee the first few games after ten hag is sacked, we will suddenly look better, because the players will suddenly start giving more effort.
That's nonsense though, they just had more players centrally so it's easy to challenge for the ball. We immediately pushed the ball forward as soon as we could, didn't you see us continually try to push the ball forward out the wings?
It isn't the system that's the problem, our pressing structure looks basically identical to Liverpool's.
The problem is that the players don't know how to react to various situations; our rest defence is really poor, and we give the ball away while we're unbalanced all the time.
The problem is that the players don't know how to react to various situations; our rest defence is really poor, and we give the ball away while we're unbalanced all the time.
Outnumbered when we attack AND defend. Midfield bypassed throughout every game, if we do get up the field the momentum stops and we camp on the edge of the box passing it back and forth.
Judging by the third goal, Gabriel would break Palmer's 4 goals in the first half record when Arsenal visit us.
Maybe not suited for English football.
I agree. How anybody can say they weren't more intense than us, is crazy to me.
If thats the case, I'd bin them all off.
That might explain why they won more duels in the centre but they also did win their duels in other areas on the pitch. You might even be right about the numerical aspects, still doesn't change that Spurs outfought us today. Especially in first half.