GK or ST

[DRJosh]

Attacks always start from the back in modern day football. We aren’t winning anything with DDG’s meek ball distribution and lack of attacking vision.

we’d score more on the counter with a progressive keeper which might offset our lack of attacking players.

But ideally we need an attacker and goalkeeper.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

That's not true. Gabriel Jesus is a ST. Even when he not always started in CF position, he still had 20+ starts in PL for Man City. Consistent high 20 appearances. They bought Alvarez last season winter window too.

DDG does win trophies with us and Atletico. Recently won League Cup this season. So it's contradictory to say "You can't win anything without a good GK." and implying to replace DDG. There is every chance that getting the best ball playing GK and we would be empty handed, or only win domestic cup too. See Liverpool. People talk as if we're just one position away and it is GK from having a competitive XI that make is CL, PL winning favorite.

Gabriel Jesus was used more as RW last season. Either way, even if the argument city used Gabriel Jesus as a striker means they don’t need top quality striker that scores 20 league goals to win the league but instead they spent more money on ederson than Jesus. The budget should be organised to make sure we can afford both keeper and striker to upgrade DDG and martial, 100m-130m on Kane or Osimhen isn’t necessary ‘’this summer’’.

 

[cyril C]

It's obviously a striker, surely even the biggest DDG hater would agree.

Well, when someone put up a thread like this, you should know the hidden agenda. A few seasons ago, someone even argue with me that a good keeper is more important a good CB, that was the season we have Maguire, Lindelof, Bailly week in week out, while DDG was voted player of the season.

 

[TrueRed79]

We have a GK that just won the Golden Glove and we want him out. Fair enough. DDG has obvious limitations. But, we are the second lowest scoring team in the top 10. For obvious reasons! We don't have a proven striker that can bag us 20+ goals every season. How is this even a debate. We create loads of chances but are one of the most wasteful teams in the PL. Have to sign Kane imo.

 

[ti vu]

Gabriel Jesus was used more as RW last season. Either way, even if the argument city used Gabriel Jesus as a striker means they don’t need top quality striker that scores 20 league goals to win the league but instead they spent more money on ederson than Jesus. The budget should be organised to make sure we can afford both keeper and striker to upgrade DDG and martial, 100m-130m on Kane or Osimhen isn’t necessary ‘’this summer’’.

Two seasons go, City still had the luxury Aguero chipped here and there as CF.

We don't have issue of chance creation as is. The issue has been that outside of Rashford, nobody is half prolific in scoring. City last season had 3 players who scored double digits in the league. Gabriel Jesus, Gundogan Bernardo Silva had 8. Foden had 9. 7 player scored double digits in all competitions. In comparison, only Rashford had double digit in the league for us this season. Our second highest scorer, Bruno had 6! In all competition, only 2 players boasted double digit with Bruno only has 11 goals.

Improving the GK wouldn't have that much influence on chance conversion for a team that still need a better RB, CM, CF. Antony needs to improve his end product, not that he doesn't get good chances to score. Even Rashford, Bruno, Casemiro who supposed to our key players are upgradeable if we're talking about a style of play that obsessed possession/control to pin back 99% opposition we face.

Let's be real here, Pep is set apart even among possession based managers. His teams maintain 60+% possession consecutive season after seasons, which even Klopp's Liverpool couldn't keep up. If you're to build a team the Pep way and to challenge Pep, you're destined to fail simply because the structure at the clubs are different. We're playing catching up, and need time to fill multiple positions under unambitious ownership. And ETH however high his potential is, he's far away from Pep in experience, to go the purist path and expect to be as successful. And it's not like Pep neglected proven prolific scoring ST position by choice. He tried to buy Kane in 2021 summer. Messi even entertained the idea to leave Barcelona for Man city at least one time prior to 2020-2021 season.

 

[Red in STL]

Please feel free to disagree with me.

I don't only want DDG gone because of his inability on the ball but also due to his inability at commanding his area. It's why he doesn't play for Spain anymore.

Every single time we've faced a team who are technically capable on the ball and pressed us high, we've shown our vulnerabilities on the ball. With the exception of Graham Potter's Brighton who went 2-0 up and sat on their lead at Old Trafford.

Both City and Liverpool have come to Old Trafford and have had 71% of the possession. We won both those games playing in transition but you might win the battle but will lose the war playing like that. And it's not a sustainable way to develop as a team and hence we have to ask the question why we have to resort to playing reactive football in our own back yard, whilst our rivals come to dominate possession. It's pretty easy to see why we struggle to hold possession against those sorts of teams and why we haven't developed our game in the last 10 years to offset the new breed of manager that has rocked up in the EPL. And when you can't play out against a well coordinated press, then compromises have to be made. And ten Hag is making compromises with the goalkeeper and a few other players at the back.

You can't keep surrendering possession against your big rivals, especially at home due to their proactive approach to winning the ball back high up the pitch.

I don't disagree that DDG needs to be replaced, I just don't think it's a top priority, we, IMO, have bigger needs elsewhere before we get to him

 

[kouroux]

I agree but you have to consider the manager’s system because under ten Hag we need to have possession to score because unlike under SAF, ten Hag demands to play from the back. Imagine hoof the ball and hoping Eriksen to win the second ball?

New keeper that can play from the back will improve our away games massively.

New keeper would be a big improvement if he is good. However scoring goals is the main goal (pun intended) so a ST will always be more important

 

[Adnan]

I don't disagree that DDG needs to be replaced, I just don't think it's a top priority, we, IMO, have bigger needs elsewhere before we get to him

I think we'll bring in both a new striker and new keeper.

 

[calodo2003]

Bizarre that anyone would think a GK is a more pressing need than a true ST.

 

[Eli Zee]

I'd take 2 strikers before we added a new GK... that's how in dire need we are of a striker.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Two seasons go, City still had the luxury Aguero chipped here and there as CF.

We don't have issue of chance creation as is. The issue has been that outside of Rashford, nobody is half prolific in scoring. City last season had 3 players who scored double digits in the league. Gabriel Jesus, Gundogan Bernardo Silva had 8. Foden had 9. 7 player scored double digits in all competitions. In comparison, only Rashford had double digit in the league for us this season. Our second highest scorer, Bruno had 6! In all competition, only 2 players boasted double digit with Bruno only has 11 goals.

Improving the GK wouldn't have that much influence on chance conversion for a team that still need a better RB, CM, CF. Antony needs to improve his end product, not that he doesn't get good chances to score. Even Rashford, Bruno, Casemiro who supposed to our key players are upgradeable if we're talking about a style of play that obsessed possession/control to pin back 99% opposition we face.

Let's be real here, Pep is set apart even among possession based managers. His teams maintain 60+% possession consecutive season after seasons, which even Klopp's Liverpool couldn't keep up. If you're to build a team the Pep way and to challenge Pep, you're destined to fail simply because the structure at the clubs are different. We're playing catching up, and need time to fill multiple positions under unambitious ownership. And ETH however high his potential is, he's far away from Pep in experience, to go the purist path and expect to be as successful. And it's not like Pep neglected proven prolific scoring ST position by choice. He tried to buy Kane in 2021 summer. Messi even entertained the idea to leave Barcelona for Man city at least one time prior to 2020-2021 season.

We tried to play like Mourinho and Ole, and we failed. Hence why we hired ETH because of what he did with Ajax meaning you should have expect us to be set up as a team that play from the back progressively not hoof the ball under ETH. To do so we need a new keeper.

City players scored those double digit because they are possession based team that can play from the back . They take control of the games, which allows them to dictate the game and creating chances.

Brighton is an example of possession based team that knows how to play from the back and still move the ball progressively, but they don’t have Harry Kane or prolific striker, yet they created higher xG and score more goals than us despite of still playing less game than us. This shows it’s not necessary that we need to spend 100m-130m on prolific striker by ignoring the keeper. We should share the budget to sign both keeper and a striker who fits the manager’s profile.

 

[L1nk]

When thinking about it i’d more inclined to think we should bring in a young keeper like Bart Verbruggen instead of Diogo Costa, to sit behind and eventually take over from De Gea in a season or two, and they’d be quite cheap, meaning we can grab a keeper but also have money for a top striker

 

[Raoul]

striker by a distance and I’d argue we need another CM before a replacement for Dave

100%

The fact that United and ETH are attempting to extend De Gea is a pretty obvious sign that they don’t think a new keeper is anywhere near the top of this summer’s priorities.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

New keeper would be a big improvement if he is good. However scoring goals is the main goal (pun intended) so a ST will always be more important

I think both are equally important and we need to find a way manage our budget to upgrade those positions even if it means we have to find alternative and say good bye to Osimhen or Kane.

 

[Adnan]

We tried to play like Mourinho and Ole, and we failed. Hence why we hired ETH because of what he did with Ajax meaning you should have expect us to be set up as a team that play from the back progressively not hoof the ball under ETH. To do so we need a new keeper.

City players scored those double digit because they are possession based team that can play from the back . They take control of the games, which allows them to dictate the game and creating chances.

Brighton is an example of possession based team that knows how to play from the back and still move the ball progressively, but they don’t have Harry Kane or prolific striker, yet they created higher xG and score more goals than us despite of still playing less game than us. This shows it’s not necessary that we need to spend 100m-130m on prolific striker by ignoring the keeper. We should share the budget to sign both keeper and a striker who fits the manager’s profile.

This.

We of course need a striker but the teams who score the most goals in the league are also the same teams who have a build up phase, which begins with their keepers.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

100%

The fact that United and ETH are attempting to extend De Gea is a pretty obvious sign that they don’t think a new keeper is anywhere near the top of this summer’s priorities.

Yet DDG hasn’t signed a new deal because he was offered no assurance to be the no 1 next season meaning ETH wants a new keeper.

 

[Raoul]

Yet DDG hasn’t signed a new deal because he was offered no assurance to be the no 1 next season meaning ETH wants a new keeper.

More likely because he's reportedly been offered less money, which would disrupt most negotiations. If Untied believed they needed a new keeper, they wouldn't keep De Gea as backup on inflated wages.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

More likely because he's reportedly been offered less money, which would disrupt most negotiations. If Untied believed they needed a new keeper, they wouldn't keep De Gea as backup on inflated wages.

DDG would have accept it if it was 200k pw no brainer because no team will offer him that money elsewhere, the fact he hasn’t accept it means the wages is far less than what you initially think. The reason why the amount is far less money because his role wouldn’t be a guaranteed no 1. I expect to be around the same as Henderson’s wages.

 

[Raoul]

The reason why he was offered less money to begin with because his role wouldn’t be a guaranteed no 1. DDG would have accept it if it was 200k pw no brainer because no team will offer him that money elsewhere, the fact he hasn’t accept it means the wages is far less than what you initially think.

Yeah but the point being that Untied are attempting to keep De Gea and pay him far more than most backup keepers make. If they genuinely thought it was time for him to move on, ETH and the club would've made that clear before negotiations started. The fact that he's likely staying, therefore suggests that keeper isn't as big a priority as some may think, and is significantly lower on the list of priorities than a proper striker and midfielder.

 

[Adnan]

There will be a keeper brought in.

 

[kouroux]

I think both are equally important and we need to find a way manage our budget to upgrade those positions even if it means we have to find alternative and say good bye to Osimhen or Kane.

I'd agree with that. W rarely get these big money signing right anyway

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Yeah but the point being that Untied are attempting to keep De Gea and pay him far more than most backup keepers make. If they genuinely thought it was time for him to move on, ETH and the club would've made that clear before negotiations started. The fact that he's likely staying, therefore suggests that keeper isn't a big priority, and is a country mile away from getting a new striker and midfielder.

We gave Dean 100k pw to stay and used him as backup which is far more than most backup keepers make, I don’t see what’s your point there? If we give DDG 100k-120k pw then he obviously hesitate to accept the new deal and questioning if he’s going to be starting or no.

 

[Raoul]

We gave Dean 100k pw to stay and used him as backup which is far more than most backup keepers make, I don’t see what’s your point there? If we give DDG 100k-120k pw then he obviously hesitate to accept the new deal and questioning if he’s going to be starting or no.

The point is that De Gea is probably staying, which means signing a new keeper wouldn't be at the top of the list of summer priorities, whereas striker is. I thought this much was clear from previous posts.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

The point is that De Gea is probably staying, which means signing a new keeper wouldn't be at the top of the list of summer priorities, whereas striker is. I thought this much was clear from previous posts.

You forget that Butland is only here on loan meaning if DDG is offered to be no 2 or not guaranteed as no 1 then new no 1 or new keeper to be integrated as new no 1 is priority. And the fact he has declined or hasn’t accepted the offer means he’s been offered a term that he can’t accept such as doesn’t guaranteed to be a no 1.

 

[Raoul]

You forget that Butland is only here on loan meaning if DDG is offered to be no 2 or not guaranteed as no 1 then new no 1 is priority. And the fact he has declined or hasn’t accepted the offer means he’s been offered a term that he can’t accept such as doesn’t guaranteed to be a no 1.

I'm not saying we won't buy a keeper, just answering the central topic of the this thread which asks which of keeper or striker are more important. Personally, I don't mind if Dave moves on and we sign Costa.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I'm not saying we won't buy a keeper, just answering the central topic of the this thread which asks which of keeper or striker are more important. Personally, I don't mind if Dave moves on and we sign Costa.

I’m not arguing with that, I’m arguing that the fact DDG hasn‘t accepted new deal because he‘s been offered a term that doesn’t guaranteed him no 1 meaning the manager wants a new keeper because he sees upgrading DDG as priority list.

 

[Raoul]

I’m not arguing with that, I’m arguing that the fact DDG hasn‘t accepted new deal because he‘s been offered a term that doesn’t guaranteed him no 1 meaning the manager wants a new keeper because he sees upgrading DDG as priority list.

Or he could simply just want a bit of competition to push De Gea instead of leaving him in place as the anointed one. He was on an absurdly inflated contract and shouldn't be earning nearly as much as he was, so moving him down a peg would make sense given that Dave couldn't earn remotely as much elsewhere at this stage of his career.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Or he could simply just want a bit of competition to push De Gea instead of leaving him in place as the anointed one. He was on an absurdly inflated contract and shouldn't be earning nearly as much as he was, so moving him down a peg would make sense given that Dave couldn't earn remotely as much elsewhere at this stage of his career.

Your argument is keeper isn’t in priority list because DDG is likely to stay. But staying alone isn’t enough, it’s about what the manager considers his role.

If keeper isn’t in priority list this summer and DDG will be ETH no 1, DDG wouldn’t be offered new deal, we could just trigger that one year extension deal and stick with DDG one more year. The fact we didn’t trigger that one year extension in his current contract but would rather DDG decline the new term is because ETH thinks upgrading him is priority in this summer but don’t mind to keep him in the role of establishing the dressing room and help the new keeper to settle in aka the role of no 2. Hence why new no 1 is in the priority list.

 

[NoPace]

Striker, obviously. Despite De Gea's weaknesses, he is actually a goalkeeper. We literally do not have a striker, and I am quite aware of the fact that Martial is on the squad and that Weghorst is on loan.

Yeah, De Gea can't pass but he can do some stuff. Good enough to start for a mid-table side. If Martial was healthy he'd be an okay 2nd striker and that sort of player, but he never is and that's it unless Rashford becomes a #9 and Garnacho is just a star at 19, which seems a bit ambitious.

 

[ti vu]

We tried to play like Mourinho and Ole, and we failed. Hence why we hired ETH because of what he did with Ajax meaning you should have expect us to be set up as a team that play from the back progressively not hoof the ball under ETH. To do so we need a new keeper.

City players scored those double digit because they are possession based team that can play from the back . They take control of the games, which allows them to dictate the game and creating chances.

Brighton is an example of possession based team that knows how to play from the back and still move the ball progressively, but they don’t have Harry Kane or prolific striker, yet they created higher xG and score more goals than us despite of still playing less game than us. This shows it’s not necessary that we need to spend 100m-130m on prolific striker by ignoring the keeper. We should share the budget to sign both keeper and a striker who fits the manager’s profile.

Talking purely about quality in their position, as starter, Ferguson is better, more natural CF than Martial. Both injured and missed games. Even Ferguson even had less minutes than Martial and one goal fewer. Welbeck and Weghorst comparison is landslide victory for Welbeck. Trossard scoring rate at Brighton would have him running Rashford close had he stayed and started games.

It's not a black and white as you tried to pose here. You may argue it's because the control Brighton had in game that allowed them to get more goal and chances, but Newcastle would throw that argument out of the window. Newcastle especially have better xG when it's clear with stats and eye test that they thrive with direct football too.

The xG and our total tally difference is 12 goals!!! That's a lot. Noone else come close to that wastefulness. I would say our xG is marginally lower not because the worse ability to control game, but rather than we don't have a CF that poach properly (making those runs inside the box to shoot closer to goal). xA we're better than Brighton.

If anything, top teams more often than not, are clinical and outperform their xG regardless of how much control (possession) they have, or how free scoring they are. Look at Man City Brighton, Newcastle, Liverpool, us this season and Arsenal of last season, show the syndrome of team that lack prolific poachers: underperforming xG.

City so far this season, only have 2 double digit goal scorers in the league: Foden and Haaland (Foden has 10 goals). They shift their approach in getting goal for this season, where Haaland can score in volume and spread the goal enough to win games. In game like away game to Arsenal at Emirates, Arsenal dominated possession. A proper CF let City approach differently. Arsenal couldn't cope with Haaland in both games against City where City approached the game more directly.

 

[Raoul]

Your argument is keeper isn’t in priority list because DDG is likely to stay.

That would be accurate. Clubs who want to replace their keepers generally don't go out of their way to re-sign them. Untied are clearly taking the position, to answer the OP, that striker is far and away the #1 priority, especially given the obvious reality that our #1 problem this year was scoring goals.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

That would be accurate. Clubs who want to replace their keepers generally don't go out of their way to re-sign them. Untied are clearly taking the position, to answer the OP, that striker is far and away the #1 priority, especially given the obvious reality that our #1 problem this year was scoring goals.

I disagree. They both are equally priority, if we have to choose then we need to adjust the budget in the market to make sure we can sign both.

 

[Raoul]

I disagree. They both are equally priority, if we have to choose then we need to adjust the budget in the market to make sure we can sign both.

That's obviously not the case. Our primary problem all year has been scoring goals. We have less goals scored than the #10 team in the table, which means our attack has produced mid table results while our defense has generally outperformed - not just because De Gea got Golden Glove but because spare the Liverpool and Brentford games, we would have allowed the least goals in the league. If on the other hand we had another 20 goals in us, we would be competing for the league this year. This is why keeper is light years behind singing a proper world class striker this summer.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Talking purely about quality in their position, as starter, Ferguson is better, more natural CF than Martial. Both injured and missed games. Even Ferguson even had less minutes than Martial and one goal fewer. Welbeck and Weghorst comparison is landslide victory for Welbeck. Trossard scoring rate at Brighton would have him running Rashford close had he stayed and started games.

It's not a black and white as you tried to pose here. You may argue it's because the control Brighton had in game that allowed them to get more goal and chances, but Newcastle would throw that argument out of the window. Newcastle especially have better xG when it's clear with stats and eye test that they thrive with direct football too.

The xG and our total tally difference is 12 goals!!! That's a lot. Noone else come close to that wastefulness. I would say our xG is marginally lower not because the worse ability to control game, but rather than we don't have a CF that poach properly (making those runs inside the box to shoot closer to goal). xA we're better than Brighton.

If anything, top teams more often than not, are clinical and outperform their xG regardless of how much control (possession) they have, or how free scoring they are. Look at Man City Brighton, Newcastle, Liverpool, us this season and Arsenal of last season, show the syndrome of team that lack prolific poachers: underperforming xG.

City so far this season, only have 2 double digit goal scorers in the league: Foden and Haaland (Foden has 10 goals). They shift their approach in getting goal for this season, where Haaland can score in volume and spread the goal enough to win games. In game like away game to Arsenal at Emirates, Arsenal dominated possession. A proper CF let City approach differently. Arsenal couldn't cope with Haaland in both games against City where City approached the game more directly.

The point of me mentioning Brighton is to show you that they don’t need a prolific striker like Kane or osimhen. We can still sign Welbeck and the current Ferguson level of striker to allow us sign new keeper, our end product and xG would still be massively improved. Basically Kane but no upgrade in keeper would be less improvement than 50m new striker and upgrading keeper.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

That's obviously not the case. Our primary problem all year has been scoring goals. We have less goals scored than the #10 team in the table, which means our attack has produced mid table results and our defense has vastly outperformed - not just because De Gea got Golden Glove but because spare the Liverpool and Brentford games, we would have the least goals in the league. If on the other hand we had another 20 goals in us, we would be competing for the league this year. This is why keeper is light years behind singing a proper world class striker this summer.

It’s obviously the case, if a team can play from the back progressively then it leads to team creating chances which also leads team to score goals. If we hoof the ball, then you are expecting us to be 50:50 means we will rely on more individual or moment brilliance to score goals rather than rely on the system. Hence why both keeper and striker should be equally priority and we need to adjust the budget to be able to afford both if it means we dont sign Kane this summer but sign cheaper striker that fits manager’s profile.

 

[Isotope]

I agree but you have to consider the manager’s system because under ten Hag we need to have possession to score because unlike under SAF, ten Hag demands to play from the back. Imagine hoof the ball and hoping Eriksen to win the second ball?

New keeper that can play from the back will improve our away games massively.

He probably referred to his Defensive Midfielder who has about 75% passing rate, an outfield player who should influence more in the game in terms of "keeping the ball", instead of his Gk?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

He probably referring to his Defensive Midfielder who has about 75% passing rate, instead of his Gk?

Our keeper has it worse, 67.8% passing rate.

 

[Raoul]

It’s obviously the case, if a team can play from the back progressively then it leads to team creating chances which also leads team to score goals. If we hoof the ball, then you are expecting us to be 50:50 means we will rely on more individual or moment brilliance to score goals rather than rely on the system. Hence why both keeper and striker should be equally priority and we need to adjust the budget to be able to afford both if it means we dont sign Kane this summer but sign cheaper striker that fits manager’s profile.

That still wouldn't solve the lack of goals problem in the absence of a quality striker. No matter how you slice and dice this, all roads point to the need for a striker above all else. The keeper, although clearly no longer at his peak, is clearly being scapegoated to obscure the real problem which is a lack of goals and a distinct lack of ideas whenever we are near the opposition box.

 

[ti vu]

The point of me mentioning Brighton is to show you that they don’t need a prolific striker like Kane or osimhen. We can still sign Welbeck and the current Ferguson level of striker to allow us sign new keeper, our end product and xG would be massively improved.

Signing current Welbeck and Evan Ferguson may improve our xG, and goal tally, but that's still not title challenging level. That's not guarantee top 4 if Liverpool maintain current form into new season. Chelsea pushing us and Newcastle is here to stay.

To clarify 2 separate points in my previous post: 1. Weghorst, Martial even Rashford up front is flawed in their movement, anticipation that means lower xG. Eye test agreed. 2. Brighton forwards are still not clinical enough. The type of clinicalness that top teams usually show by overperforming xG (score more than xG = score from more difficult angle, further from goal).

Stats show that we're severely wasteful. 12 goals fewer than xG is just mind boggling. As I keep repeat this point, even team like City, Liverpool who usually top xG, in their optimal form, they still overperform their xG. Slightly underperforming maybe acceptable. Not 10+ goal. That is level difference in clinicalness.

Let take this season as example, title challenge require is 80+ goals. Top 4 optimal level scoring level is high 60 and 70+ goal range. A good but not great addition with addition 20 goal and assist only get us a into 70+ goal range. Clinical high volume scorer is still highly desired.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

That still wouldn't solve the lack of goals problem in the absence of a quality striker. No matter how you slice and dice this, all roads point to the need for a striker above all else. The keeper, although clearly no longer at his peak, is clearly being scapegoated to obscure the real problem which is a lack of goals and a distinct lack of ideas whenever we are near the opposition box.

Hence why I never say we shouldn’t sign striker because I know we need a better striker. That’s why I said we should make both striker and keeper as equally important because signing Kane would only means we have to hoof the ball and hoping for his and our attackers individual or moment brilliance. We need to rely more on the system.

Brighton managed to score more goals and more xG than us with lesser quality while playing less game without having Kane or Osimhen quality striker because they have keeper that fits the manager profile to play from the back progressively, striker that fits the manager’s profile, and play as a team to follow the system rather than relying on individual or moment brilliance.