GK or ST

[Red in STL]

I don't understand this repeated insistence on distorting what other posters are saying, but I'll bite.

Almost none of those players you named are in our strongest XI right now (Wan-Bissaka is the only arguable one) . De Gea is. Swap him for Ederson (hell, forget Ederson, swap him for Raya or Emi Martinez or Ramsdale or even Sanchez, who can't get into the Brighton side anymore - over half the starting keepers in the league, tbh) and we improve massively. Might as well be magic, huh?

You could replace DDG with any of those keepers and have our strongest 10 outfield players in front of him and the difference would be barely noticeable, the team's biggest issue is lack of goals from anyone not named Rashford

 

[Walrus]

Its the unpopular opinion, but GK for me.

City and St Pep are all the rage right now I realise, but its worth highlighting - the first thing Guardiola did when he joined City was to ship out a fairly well established #1 in Joe Hart. Conversely, they had no problem winning the league last year without a striker.

The above example aside, I simply think De Gea is too big an obstacle for us to ever play decent, possession based football. Its a bigger problem than we are likely to realise until he is replaced. Stick Rashford up front for the 75% of the season where Martial isnt available. Use Bruno as a false nine. Use McTominay as an emergency option if needed, or get in someone on loan again. We need to start learning how to control games, keep possession and beat the press - and we cant do any of that with De Gea.

 

[RVN1991]

Its the unpopular opinion, but GK for me.

City and St Pep are all the rage right now I realise, but its worth highlighting - the first thing Guardiola did when he joined City was to ship out a fairly well established #1 in Joe Hart. Conversely, they had no problem winning the league last year without a striker.

The above example aside, I simply think De Gea is too big an obstacle for us to ever play decent, possession based football. Its a bigger problem than we are likely to realise until he is replaced. Stick Rashford up front for the 75% of the season where Martial isnt available. Use Bruno as a false nine. Use McTominay as an emergency option if needed, or get in someone on loan again. We need to start learning how to control games, keep possession and beat the press - and we cant do any of that with De Gea.

He inherited a club with KDB. Silva, Aguero, Kompany, Gundogan and Fernandinho, spent a small fortune on fullbacks, but the real difference was claudio Bravo who was one of the worst keepers in the league that season? Maybe our issue is relying on guys like Martial and Mctominay.

 

[tjb]

Striker easily.
It's by far the most important position we need to invest in.
I genuinely believe our defence and midfield have been phenomenal this season ( starting, not depth).
However, our attackers have been so bad that despite massive improvements in our general play and solidity, we haven't been able to take advantage.
Our attack is the reason for our away record.
Our dominance, solidity and experience carries us in home games where we can easily shut down the opposition from scoring.
But in away games where we can't expect to dominate the midfield battle, we don't have enough offensively to carry us. Our current team can't win 3-2 away from home; they can barely scrape out a 2-1.
This is because if Bruno, Eriksen, Casemiro or Shaw aren't involved, unless Rashford has a moment of magic, nothing is happening. In away games, particularly against the better sides, where the individuals mentioned above may be pushed deeper, our attack literally becomes a black hole.

This didn't start now. It's been a problem for years.
Our attackers outside of Rashford don't actually attack. ( Bruno is a midielder)
The job of the midfield is to provide attackers with the ball in the final third of the pitch. United this season has done that to a very consistent degree, both home and away.
The problem we have is that when they do get the ball in these positions, they don't do anything with it unless they have countless time and space. The irony is, they should be creating time through their ability to keep the ball, space through making runs for teammates, attacks through dribbling, winning duels through intensity and speed of thought. I don't expect our current attackers to keep the ball when faced with any real pressure high up the pitch. But this is something that if you watch Liverpool or Arsenal, you seen their attackers contend with and deal with really well. Ours either lose the ball or give up on the attack by passing back to safe zones. For anything to function in attack, Bruno in particular has had to put things on a plate for our attackers. Yet somehow, despite this effort, he gets more criticism from fans because he's actually active. Antony tries, his decision making hasn't been great and he's just started to get a bit more comfortable. The issue we have on this team has been having to consistently play the likes of Martial, Weighorst, Sancho and Elanga in attacking positions. So poor that we've had to shuffle Bruno all season to cover these positions.

The point here is that attack will always be the most important part of the pitch. Ours haven't been doing it for a long time, so it feels like our fans have forgotten how much an attacking player should actually be showing for the ball. We used to dominate the league because we had countless attackers, both starting and in depth who used to consistently run oppositions ragged through their footballing ability, skill and technique. People here have said a player like Martial was quality in the past, despite him being completely unable to use his weaker foot. Playing to his right is almost impossible for him, which is why he can't play on the right wing. He literally has to dribble around at times to change directions, yet people here were convinced of him being a dribbling wizard, when I can watch Bernardo Silva or Martinelli make a quick turn in a single second. We have low standards for our attackers and we don't notice it.

 

[Nicoseth]

This isn't even a debate. We desperately need a striker. DDG has had his issues but is still a good keeper.

 

[Red00012]

Striker and it isn’t even close

 

[Sultan]

Apologies, I'm not answering the thread starter's question. It can't be one or the other. Both are massive weaknesses and urgent requirements.

 

[pogbasformerbarber]

Striker…by a mile. Yes DDG has been disappointing but we’ve led the league in clean sheets regardless. Our goal total is dreadful.

You can show me advanced metrics till the cows come home but it’s pretty simple, we are in desperate need of goals and at minimum above average in not allowing them…so let’s address the worst areas before tackling the less egregious.

 

[Revan]

Its the unpopular opinion, but GK for me.

City and St Pep are all the rage right now I realise, but its worth highlighting - the first thing Guardiola did when he joined City was to ship out a fairly well established #1 in Joe Hart. Conversely, they had no problem winning the league last year without a striker.

The above example aside, I simply think De Gea is too big an obstacle for us to ever play decent, possession based football. Its a bigger problem than we are likely to realise until he is replaced. Stick Rashford up front for the 75% of the season where Martial isnt available. Use Bruno as a false nine. Use McTominay as an emergency option if needed, or get in someone on loan again. We need to start learning how to control games, keep possession and beat the press - and we cant do any of that with De Gea.

Except that year they didn't win the league but finished third with 79 points, 15 points below Chelsea who won the league.

Then he won the league next season. While having a striker one of the best strikers in the history of Premier League, who scored 21 league goals in 25 appearances. The last time a United player scored more than 20 goals in the league is RVP in 2012-2013.

Keeper above striker makes no sense IMO. First, a striker is far more important for the team (in average) than a keeper. Usually, the two most important positions in the team are No. 9 and No. 10. The keeper is arguably (next to full backs) the least important position. There are good reasons why strikers win Ballon D'Ors instead of keepers, as are good reasons why strikers cost far more above the keepers. The most expensive keeper of all time is the 24th most expensive transfer of all time.

Second, there is a far larger gap between upgrading Martial/Weghorst with a Kane/Osimehn than De Gea with Costa/Maignan. De Gea is a problem and needs an upgrade. But a keeper upgrade won't solve the issues forward and the lack of goals (9th in the league). The striker is a far more important position to fix.

 

[RedIan]

100% a striker. Probably two.
We have the Golden Glove wonder in net.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Striker and it isn’t even close

This.

Can’t actually fathom how anyone can think otherwise. Our defensive midfielder has outscored half of our forwards. Our playing out from the back whilst not amazing is much better because of Martinez, Varane and Casemiro. Signing a new keeper isn’t going to make our forwards score more. People act as if Alison and Ederson have like 20 assists a season. We have Martinez to zip balls around from the back, that’ll do for now. We’ve scored the second least amount of goals in the top ten this season (the team behind us sacked their manager) we’ve more clean sheets than the champions.

 

[L1nk]

We could get Costa and Hojlund for the price of 1 Harry Kane

 

[Adnan]

We need both.

We obviously need a striker because we don't have a focal point in attack. And we need a goalkeeper because DDG is no where near good enough to enhance the play style which ten Hag is trying to implement.

A dominant keeper who can pass the ball will help enhance the build up phase and allow us to play higher up the pitch. Currently we're among the worst teams in the league when it comes to playing in a high line.

The striker will paper over some cracks but structurally we're weak in the build up phase and DDG is among the chief culprits. Erik ten Hag mentioned in his press conference yesterday about how our lack of playing out from the back has contributed to our poor away form.

We won't get away with just signing a striker when in the current game it's extremely important to be able to play out from the back against the opponent's pressing tactics, whether that be half Court, mid block or a high press.

Ronaldo leaving the way he did obviously made things difficult and our attack was incomplete. But our first phase is complete with several players who aren't good enough to play under a coach who wants to implement a brand of football that initiates attacks from the back.

Replace the keeper and RB and push Casemiro forward in the build up phase with a new midfielder being the first receiver from midfield, and I'm confident the team will look much better and create even more chances.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Replacing DdG is a bigger priority than a Striker.

Rubbish, our goals against are not that bad 41.
City 31 , Arsenal 43, Newcastle 32 Liverpool 43 Brighton 46 out of the Top 6 we are 3rd.
And then there is this !

Position		CS	S	Mins
1	David De Gea	17	95	3,240
2	Alisson	14	108	3,330
3	Nick Pope	13	86	3,172
4	Aaron Ramsdale	13	95	3,330
5	Emiliano Martinez	11	95	3,050
6	Ederson	11	43	3,060
7	José Sá	11	105	3,150
8	David Raya	11	152	3,330
9	Kepa Arrizabalaga	9	82	2,295
10	Lukasz Fabianski	8	104	2,933
CS - Clean Sheets S - Saves Mins - Minutes played

Its the goals scored that is a huge problem.
City 92 , Arsenal 83 Newcastle 67 Liverpool 71 Brighton 67 ours is a piss poor 52.
To say that a new keeper is the priority is just wrong.

 

[Sandikan]

Striker is the single biggest need.
How anyone could watch us struggle through with Weigy and a half fit Martial for the last 6 months I do not know.
Rashy can play there but is much better out wide.

We'd still need to sort the issue that our wide attackers don't contribute enough in the way of assists, but step by step.

 

[surf]

Rubbish, our goals against are not that bad 41.
City 31 , Arsenal 43, Newcastle 32 Liverpool 43 Brighton 46 out of the Top 6 we are 3rd.
And then there is this !

Position		CS	S	Mins
1	David De Gea	17	95	3,240
2	Alisson	14	108	3,330
3	Nick Pope	13	86	3,172
4	Aaron Ramsdale	13	95	3,330
5	Emiliano Martinez	11	95	3,050
6	Ederson	11	43	3,060
7	José Sá	11	105	3,150
8	David Raya	11	152	3,330
9	Kepa Arrizabalaga	9	82	2,295
10	Lukasz Fabianski	8	104	2,933
CS - Clean Sheets S - Saves Mins - Minutes played

Its the goals scored that is a huge problem.
City 92 , Arsenal 83 Newcastle 67 Liverpool 71 Brighton 67 ours is a piss poor 52.
To say that a new keeper is the priority is just wrong.

Ederson is on only 43 saves. Shows how good City are at controlling games.

Today's game reinforced, as if any more evidence was needed, how badly we need a striker and that Dave is not the problem.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Ederson is on only 43 saves. Shows how good City are at controlling games.

Today's game reinforced, as if any more evidence was needed, how badly we need a striker and that Dave is not the problem.

I agree

 

[Adnan]

City, Arsenal, Liverpool and Brighton will obviously score more goals because they have superior players in the build up phase. And their build up phase begins with the keeper.

So dominating the ball = having to make less saves as far as Ederson is concerned.

 

[kouroux]

The pure lunacy of saying a keeper is more important than a striker for us... I'm lost for words in front of so much stupidity

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

City, Arsenal, Liverpool and Brighton will obviously score more goals because they have superior players in the build up phase. And their build up phase begins with the keeper.

So dominating the ball = having to make less saves as far as Ederson is concerned.

We dominated the ball today. How many goals did we score?

 

[Red00012]

Replacing DdG is a bigger priority than a Striker.

You don’t watch Utd if you seriously think this

 

[kouroux]

We dominated the ball today. How many goals did we score?

We've also dominated possession in more games than not this season and our scoring record is piss poor.

 

[kouroux]

To score goals, we need to have possession, otherwise we will stuck with counter attacking to score goals. It's going to be hard to have possession if our keeper hoof the ball most of the times.

We don't need to have possession to score goals. That's where your logic is flawed. SAF's teams were never as focused on keeping the ball and just compare the goalscoring

 

[laughtersassassin]

We simply have to get both.

But technically we need a top striker and a young striker before we can look at goalkeeper.

We need to do what City did like with Haaland and Alvarez.

Let Weghorst and Martial go

 

[Adnan]

We dominated the ball today. How many goals did we score?

We dominated the ball today due to Bournemouth not pressing us high, which I predicted they wouldn't. And we don't have a focal point in attack which will obviously effect us, as well not having Rashford, and we still won against a Bouremouth team who have a good home record for a team near the bottom of the league.

But the difference is that we do have a first phase that has consistently failed us and it's about looking at things holistically and not pigeon-hole situations when we've failed consistently to be a proactive attacking team for a number of years. And I'm not saying we don't need a striker, but we won't challenge City in the league without applying ourselves in possession starting with the keeper and applying ourselves out of possession via a proactive press. Both things are absent.

It's why ten Hag when asked yesterday about our poor away form, mentioned our build up play from the back being weak.

 

[sullydnl]

Its the unpopular opinion, but GK for me.

City and St Pep are all the rage right now I realise, but its worth highlighting - the first thing Guardiola did when he joined City was to ship out a fairly well established #1 in Joe Hart. Conversely, they had no problem winning the league last year without a striker.

The above example aside, I simply think De Gea is too big an obstacle for us to ever play decent, possession based football. Its a bigger problem than we are likely to realise until he is replaced. Stick Rashford up front for the 75% of the season where Martial isnt available. Use Bruno as a false nine. Use McTominay as an emergency option if needed, or get in someone on loan again. We need to start learning how to control games, keep possession and beat the press - and we cant do any of that with De Gea.

It was the first thing he did once he realised he already had at team with KDB, Sterling, Fernandinho, Aguero, Silva, Kompany, Zabaleta, Clichy and Yaya Toure in it and €200m to simultaneously spend on CB, CM, RW, LW and CF.

Different circumstances, different priorities.

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

Voting 2 strikers. One big money, one flyer.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

We dominated the ball today due to Bournemouth not pressing us high, which I predicted they wouldn't. And we don't have a focal point in attack which will obviously effect us, as well not having Rashford, and we still won against a Bouremouth team who have a good home record for a team near the bottom of the league.

But the difference is that we do have a first phase that has consistently failed us and it's about looking at things holistically and not pigeon-hole situations when we've failed consistently to be a proactive attacking team for a number of years. And I'm not saying we don't need a striker, but we won't challenge City in the league without applying ourselves in possession starting with the keeper and applying ourselves out of possession via a proactive press. Both things are absent.

It's why ten Hag when asked yesterday about our poor away form, mentioned our build up play from the back being weak.

I mean today ETH also complained about our lack of goal scoring threat. I also can't imagine us challenging City without a solid striker. We've scored less goals than Fulham and Brentford this season. I really don't see how GK should be more of a priority than a striker

 

[Adnan]

I mean today ETH also complained about our lack of goal scoring threat. I also can't imagine us challenging City without a solid striker. We've scored less goals than Fulham and Brentford this season. I really don't see how GK should be more of a priority than a striker

We started the game today, down two players in attack from the start of the season. Both Ronaldo and Rashford were missing for different reasons and we still won the game. The attack was obviously going to be compromised and we do need a striker.

But we also need to upgrade on the keeper because it's about creating a team around a system of play and not creating a team around a individual. So of course we need a striker but we also need to build a strong structure which will allow us to play the game in the opponent's half. And for that to happen, we need to upgrade a few positions at the back imo.

It's why Liverpool won the league with Firminho who facilitated for the wide forwards and fullbacks with Allison and Van Dijk pushing the backline high, which enabled Liverpool to strangle the opponent high up the pitch.

 

[JB7]

It was the first thing he did once he realised he already had at team with KDB, Sterling, Fernandinho, Aguero, Silva, Kompany, Zabaleta, Clichy and Yaya Toure in it and €200m to simultaneously spend on CB, CM, RW, LW and CF.

Different circumstances, different priorities.

You might have a point had he immediately signed a goalkeeper. But he didn’t. He dropped Hart to play Cabellero who had been their reserve goalkeeper for two years previous.

This is a ridiculous thread though. We’ll sign both in the summer.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

We started the game today, down two players in attack from the start of the season. Both Ronaldo and Rashford were missing for different reasons and we still won the game. The attack was obviously going to be compromised and we do need a striker.

But we also need to upgrade on the keeper because it's about creating a team around a system of play and not creating a team around a individual. So of course we need a striker but we also need to build a strong structure which will allow us to play the game in the opponent's half. And for that to happen, we need to upgrade a few positions at the back imo.

It's why Liverpool won the league with Firminho who facilitated for the wide forwards and fullbacks with Allison and Van Dijk pushing the backline high, which enabled Liverpool to strangle the opponent high up the pitch.

Agree with this post. So what positions do you think need upgrading then

 

[Adnan]

Agree with this post. So what positions do you think need upgrading then

I don't know if it's possible due to FFP. But I would like to see us sign a striker, GK, RB and creative CM who will be the deep lying/deep roaming playmaker.

And that's the bare minimum.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I don't know if it's possible due to FFP. But I would like to see us sign a striker, GK, RB and creative CM who will be the deep lying/deep roaming playmaker.

And that's the bare minimum.

Is a GK, RB and CM really enough to solve our ball retention issues and poor build up? Like ETH said, that's a big reason for our poor away form. When I see teams like City, Brighton, even ETH Ajax with good build up and ball retention, they pretty much filled their entire defense and base of their midfield with technical players. Even if we sign a GK, RB and CM, I can imagine teams targeting the likes of Varane and Casemiro who aren't exactly the best on the ball

 

[Red in STL]

We dominated the ball today due to Bournemouth not pressing us high, which I predicted they wouldn't. And we don't have a focal point in attack which will obviously effect us, as well not having Rashford, and we still won against a Bouremouth team who have a good home record for a team near the bottom of the league.

But the difference is that we do have a first phase that has consistently failed us and it's about looking at things holistically and not pigeon-hole situations when we've failed consistently to be a proactive attacking team for a number of years. And I'm not saying we don't need a striker, but we won't challenge City in the league without applying ourselves in possession starting with the keeper and applying ourselves out of possession via a proactive press. Both things are absent.

It's why ten Hag when asked yesterday about our poor away form, mentioned our build up play from the back being weak.

We've also dominated possession in games when teams have pressed us

I don't know if it's possible due to FFP. But I would like to see us sign a striker, GK, RB and creative CM who will be the deep lying/deep roaming playmaker.

And that's the bare minimum.

And it's not happening

 

[Adnan]

Is a GK, RB and CM really enough to solve our ball retention issues and poor build up? Like ETH said, that's a big reason for our poor away form. When I see teams like City, Brighton, even ETH Ajax with good build up and ball retention, they pretty much filled their entire defense and base of their midfield with technical players. Even if we sign a GK, RB and CM, I can imagine teams targeting the likes of Varane and Casemiro who aren't exactly the best on the ball

I'm not sure we can solve all the problems in one window mate. But I do think the four positions I've suggested, would make a big difference towards getting the ball rolling as far as the system is concerned.

 

[Adnan]

We've also dominated possession in games when teams have pressed us

And it's not happening

Can you tell me which teams pressed us high and we still dominated possession?

 

[Red in STL]

Can you tell me which teams pressed us high and we still dominated possession?

Not off the top of my head but most PL teams tend to press us high, that's why folks like you want DDG gone because he can't deal with it, if there's no pressure on him he's not really a liability

We have 54% avg at home and 55% avg away, given how shite we've been away from home that's astounding

 

[Adnan]

Not off the top of my head but most PL teams tend to press us high, that's why folks like you want DDG gone because he can't deal with it, if there's no pressure on him he's not really a liability

We have 54% avg at home and 55% avg away, given how shite we've been away from home that's astounding

Please feel free to disagree with me.

I don't only want DDG gone because of his inability on the ball but also due to his inability at commanding his area. It's why he doesn't play for Spain anymore.

Every single time we've faced a team who are technically capable on the ball and pressed us high, we've shown our vulnerabilities on the ball. With the exception of Graham Potter's Brighton who went 2-0 up and sat on their lead at Old Trafford.

Both City and Liverpool have come to Old Trafford and have had 71% of the possession. We won both those games playing in transition but you might win the battle but will lose the war playing like that. And it's not a sustainable way to develop as a team and hence we have to ask the question why we have to resort to playing reactive football in our own back yard, whilst our rivals come to dominate possession. It's pretty easy to see why we struggle to hold possession against those sorts of teams and why we haven't developed our game in the last 10 years to offset the new breed of manager that has rocked up in the EPL. And when you can't play out against a well coordinated press, then compromises have to be made. And ten Hag is making compromises with the goalkeeper and a few other players at the back.

You can't keep surrendering possession against your big rivals, especially at home due to their proactive approach to winning the ball back high up the pitch.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

We don't need to have possession to score goals. That's where your logic is flawed. SAF's teams were never as focused on keeping the ball and just compare the goalscoring

I agree but you have to consider the manager’s system because under ten Hag we need to have possession to score because unlike under SAF, ten Hag demands to play from the back. Imagine hoof the ball and hoping Eriksen to win the second ball?

New keeper that can play from the back will improve our away games massively.

 

[ti vu]

City won the league without a St. You can't win anything without a good GK. GK for me.

That's not true. Gabriel Jesus is a ST. Even when he not always started in CF position, he still had 20+ starts in PL for Man City. Consistent high 20 appearances. They bought Alvarez last season winter window too.

DDG does win trophies with us and Atletico. Recently won League Cup this season. So it's contradictory to say "You can't win anything without a good GK." and implying to replace DDG. There is every chance that getting the best ball playing GK and we would be empty handed, or only win domestic cup too. See Liverpool. People talk as if we're just one position away and it is GK from having a competitive XI that make is CL, PL winning favorite.