Gio/Theon VS Enigma - NT peak Draft - Final

[harms]

Congratulations on the win @Enigma_87. Went to check near the end of the match, it's your third draft win already! Well deserved.
For me you were one Baresi/Scirea/Beckenbauer (as a libero) away from being unbeatable, but Cruyff/Maradona conundrum proved to be more problematic.

On a side note, Pele - Müller is a fecking amazing pairing.

 

[2mufc0]

Just out of curiosity, are most of the drafts dominated by 5 at the back formations? Teams that progressed had this formation and it was pretty popular in the previous draft too.

 

[Raees]

Just out of curiosity, are most of the drafts dominated by 5 at the back formations? Teams that progressed had this formation and it was pretty popular in the previous draft too.

I think because there is more chance of criticism the more GOAT attackers you have, whereas defenders are seen to be more complementary and easier to see who can fit with who. Secondly, against GOAT attackers, you feel you need more defenders at the back in order to sell the fact you can nullify them.

 

[harms]

Just out of curiosity, are most of the drafts dominated by 5 at the back formations? Teams that progressed had this formation and it was pretty popular in the previous draft too.

Mostly it's because of it's versatility (can quickly change to a diamond or even 4-3-3, not in the game, but in the process of drafting) and the lack of GOAT wingers (who also don't steal the show from the central figures like Garrincha does). Give your wingbacks space, get a free man in the middle to take care of the opposition's number 10 (who is most likely their best player, if it's an all-time draft). Also back three works well with every GOAT centerback bar maybe Moore.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Yup..

KAHN
CAFU BERGOMI BARESI DESAILLY BREHME
VARELA MATTHAUS
MARADONA
VAN BASTEN EUSEBIO​

Christ...that's an absolutely brilliant team.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Just out of curiosity, are most of the drafts dominated by 5 at the back formations? Teams that progressed had this formation and it was pretty popular in the previous draft too.

I think it's a fairly recent phenomenon. If anything I think 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 have been the dominant formations in drafts.

 

[Moby]

Congrats mate!

Commiserations Gio and Theon, Dzajic I reckon would have won you the draft if he had started.

Cafu pick would have guaranteed my vote though.

Your Location.

!

 

[Enigma_87]

Congratulations on the win @Enigma_87. Went to check near the end of the match, it's your third draft win already! Well deserved.
For me you were one Baresi/Scirea/Beckenbauer (as a libero) away from being unbeatable, but Cruyff/Maradona conundrum proved to be more problematic.

On a side note, Pele - Müller is a fecking amazing pairing.

Cheers mate I understand where you are coming from but I really liked Beckenbauer/Didi pairing which offered pretty much everything what you'd expect of a midfield duo in a 5-3-2.

There was option to put Beckenbauer as a libero and Makelele next to Didi. Something like this:

---------------Fillol--------------
-----------Beckenbauer-----------
------Figueroa--------Maldini-----
Amoros-------------------Facchetti
----------Makelele----Didi---------
---------------Pele-----------------
---------Muller-----Eusebio--------

but didn't want to drop Moore as he's probably my best defender given the theme and Makelele vs Maradona IMO would've been seen as a liability.

Yup..

KAHN
CAFU BERGOMI BARESI DESAILLY BREHME
VARELA MATTHAUS
MARADONA
VAN BASTEN EUSEBIO​

That would've been awesome.

 

[Moby]

On a side note, Pele - Müller is a fecking amazing pairing.

As I wrote in my first post in this thread - International Football, Pele wins. Period!

The King.

 

[Moby]

Yup..

KAHN
CAFU BERGOMI BARESI DESAILLY BREHME
VARELA MATTHAUS
MARADONA
VAN BASTEN EUSEBIO​

Get the feck outta here with that. Cheating.

Imagine the first reply - "Eusebio should be on the right.." - EAP

 

[harms]

but didn't want to drop Moore as he's probably my best defender given the theme and Makelele vs Maradona IMO would've been seen as a liability.

As much as I love Figueroa in that draft's format it was him who should've been dropped. There is a little problem that Moore looks better on the left but I don't that it would've been an issue.

Regarding Makelele - with him always on Maradona's heels and Beckenbauer/Moore covering I think it would've been alright. As alright as it can be when you're facing Maradona in his international peak, of course

 

[Enigma_87]

I think it's a fairly recent phenomenon. If anything I think 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 have been the dominant formations in drafts.

Think @Joga Bonito and @Gio have built a fantastic 5-3-2 side recently and yours and Skizzo with Eusebio up and Maradona was it?

As much as I love Figueroa in that draft's format it was him who should've been dropped. There is a little problem that Moore looks better on the left but I don't that it would've been an issue.

Regarding Makelele - with him always on Maradona's heels and Beckenbauer/Moore covering I think it would've been alright. As alright as it can be when you're facing Maradona in his international peak, of course

Figueroa IMO offers something that Maldini and Moore doesn't - pure physical strength, he's the best marker out of the three and also commanding presence in the air. In a 4 man back like him and Baresi are my favorite pairing probably.

Indeed Maradona was always a worry

 

[Moby]

Cmon, Makelele is one the worst DMs in terms of style to deal with someone as absolutely electric, dynamic, pacy as Maradona especially in his unbeatable incarnation. In 2006 he at least Vieira's unending reservoir of energy with him, which he won't next to Didi. It would be incredibly static, not to mention he's nowhere near in terms of class on the ball as someone who partners Didi should be. There's a reason Maradona found Matthaus his worst enemy, only someone as absolutely elite in terms of mobility, work rate, stamina and ability to cover a player both vertically and horizontally (where Makelele just falls apart) can do it. Someone like a Turin version of Roy Keane can be considered a good fit for that role but Makelele is absolute a different kind of DM.

 

[harms]

Figueroa IMO offers something that Maldini and Moore doesn't - pure physical strength, he's the best marker out of the three and also commanding presence in the air. In a 4 man back like him and Baresi are my favorite pairing probably.

I agree with that in an all-time draft - and Figueroa is probably the most complete defender ever, just, as I said, not based on three games after which he went home (I don't know how did the TSA let him keep Müller in his pocket during the flight home though, should be illegal).

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Think @Joga Bonito and @Gio have built a fantastic 5-3-2 side recently and yours and Skizzo with Eusebio up and Maradona was it?



Figueroa IMO offers something that Maldini and Moore doesn't - pure physical strength, he's the best marker out of the three and also commanding presence in the air. In a 4 man back like him and Baresi are my favorite pairing probably.

Indeed Maradona was always a worry

Yeah, we got beat in the final with that 5-3-2:

I loved that team in its finished format (it was a bit of a mess initially), particularly the Rijkaard/van Hanegem/Maradona midfield.

 

[Raees]

Get the feck outta here with that. Cheating.

Imagine the first reply - "Eusebio should be on the right.." - EAP

very true.

Ah not winning the draft with a side like we had is pretty hard to take, but least we finally got to build a side which we can properly be proud of. Considering we gifted Enigma Bobby Moore, we made a decent recovery.

 

[Enigma_87]

Just out of curiosity, are most of the drafts dominated by 5 at the back formations? Teams that progressed had this formation and it was pretty popular in the previous draft too.

It's easier to accommodate GOAT attackers like Muller, Eusebio, Pele, Puskas etc. There is more space for them in a fluid front three where the width comes predominantly from the wing backs.

Whereas in 4-3-3 - 2 of those attackers would also have to stretch up the play when the fullbacks are occupied with their wingers.

It also avoids potential clashes(unless you field two #10's out of those 3 attackers).

It's my 10th or 12th draft or something and my first 5-3-2 (I even started this draft with a 4 man back line).

Cmon, Makelele is one the worst DMs in terms of style to deal with someone as absolutely electric, dynamic, pacy as Maradona especially in his unbeatable incarnation. In 2006 he at least Vieira's unending reservoir of energy with him, which he won't next to Didi. It would be incredibly static, not to mention he's nowhere near in terms of class on the ball as someone who partners Didi should be. There's a reason Maradona found Matthaus his worst enemy, only someone as absolutely elite in terms of mobility, work rate, stamina and ability to cover a player both vertically and horizontally (where Makelele just falls apart) can do it. Someone like a Turin version of Roy Keane can be considered a good fit for that role but Makelele is absolute a different kind of DM.

Absolutely agree. Beckenbauer minding Maradona is probably the best fit I could find in the theme. Makelele vs Maradona I see as an uneven battle. Even Tigana would've been much better fit.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Great sub and it could have edged the game towards Gio/Theon. Felt the R.Carlos-Dzajic duo was one of the stronger facets of that side myself.

Great game @Enigma_87

Tough luck @Gio @Theon

 

[Enigma_87]

Great sub and it could have edged the game towards Gio/Theon. Felt the R.Carlos-Dzajic duo was one of the stronger facets of that side myself.

Great game @Enigma_87

Tough luck @Gio @Theon

Cheers Joga!

very true.

Ah not winning the draft with a side like we had is pretty hard to take, but least we finally got to build a side which we can properly be proud of. Considering we gifted Enigma Bobby Moore, we made a decent recovery.

Your getting there mate, I bet the next one is yours!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Absolutely agree. Beckenbauer minding Maradona is probably the best fit I could find in the theme. Makelele vs Maradona I see as an uneven battle. Even Tigana would've been much better fit.

What 1970 Beckenbauer performances where you looking at specifically in terms of suitability for the Maradona detail? I watched most of West Germany vs Italy lately and I was surprised at how little defensive responsibility he had. He didn't really make much effort at all to pick up Mazzola or Domenghini. I flicked through the England match then and whilst he paid closer attention to Charlton it still seemed fairly passive.

 

[Enigma_87]

What 1970 Beckenbauer performances where you looking at specifically in terms of suitability for the Maradona detail? I watched most of West Germany vs Italy lately and I was surprised at how little defensive responsibility he had. He didn't really make much effort at all to pick up Mazzola or Domenghini. I flicked through the England match then and whilst he paid closer attention to Charlton it still seemed fairly passive.

In the group games he was more restricted defensively I thought and they were in control of the games.

He didn't put a pure marking job as like in 1966 against Charlton, but then again he was much more restricted than the box to box 1966 version. He was more mature, positional aware and his reading of the game was much greater which IMO made him look a bit more static compared to the young version of 1966 which was very dynamic on the eye.

He minded Charlton but I think when they went for the equalizer and to win the game England gave the center of the park which allowed him to push up more in the second. The Italy game was funny one and open for some parts of the game where the midfield was passed easier. In terms of marking job I'd say he did pretty well against Charlton in the quarters but the team was a bit off in the first and they picked up in the second in combination to England pulling back couple of yards to defend the lead.

His overall defensive contribution was greater than 1966 where he did pretty well with around 20 tackles(I think ?) and lot of interceptions. I had some stats when I flicked through and he positional and zonal play was deeper compared to 4 years earlier as well as putting more work in it, albeit as I've said in a more mature way.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

In the group games he was more restricted defensively I thought and they were in control of the games.

He didn't put a pure marking job as like in 1966 against Charlton, but then again he was much more restricted than the box to box 1966 version. He was more mature, positional aware and his reading of the game was much greater which IMO made him look a bit more static compared to the young version of 1966 which was very dynamic on the eye.

He minded Charlton but I think when they went for the equalizer and to win the game England gave the center of the park which allowed him to push up more in the second. The Italy game was funny one and open for some parts of the game where the midfield was passed easier. In terms of marking job I'd say he did pretty well against Charlton in the quarters but the team was a bit off in the first and they picked up in the second in combination to England pulling back couple of yards to defend the lead.

His overall defensive contribution was greater than 1966 where he did pretty well with around 20 tackles(I think ?) and lot of interceptions. I had some stats when I flicked through and he positional and zonal play was deeper compared to 4 years earlier as well as putting more work in it, albeit as I've said in a more mature way.

Good post, cheers mate. Personally I'm still unconvinced about his suitability vs Maradona and I'd have preferred a more rugged, single-minded ball winner there with Beckenbauer supporting him defensively as well as dictating play, but I appreciate the explanation.

 

[Enigma_87]

Good post, cheers mate. Personally I'm still unconvinced about his suitability vs Maradona and I'd have preferred a more rugged, single-minded ball winner there with Beckenbauer supporting him defensively as well as dictating play, but I appreciate the explanation.

Well to me there are two approaches - the Gentile one to kick the shit out of him or the more positional intelligent defender who I'd rate higher in defensive ability than the rugged stopper and against the very elite tier of footballers in the mold of Maradona.Man to man I don't think any pure marker can take him out especially the 86 version, hence I'd go with the very elite tier of defensive players like Beckenbauer, Baresi, Scirea etc. Beckenbauer is the best fit out of the lot IMO as he can play in more advanced position rather than the sweeper type (Baresi/Scirea). Other option was Figueroa to man mark him, but IMO his presence in the box and ability to cover was more important in this game.

I prefer the latter to be honest a bit like Baresi coped with Romario in 94 - not chasing around him like a madman but being always at the right time and on the right place and making crucial interceptions, albeit not always being on the deck trying to foul him or tackle him.

On a side note I think 06 version of Makelele is not the former but the latter one, Makelele is more of a positional marker/tackler rather than dynamic hound type ala Davids.

My idea was also having Figueroa/Maldini stepping up in the zone if Beckenbauer gets beaten and intercepting Maradona and doubling him up when with the ball which both can do, especially Figueroa and use the spare CB to mind Cruyff with Moore on Ronaldo.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Good post, cheers mate. Personally I'm still unconvinced about his suitability vs Maradona and I'd have preferred a more rugged, single-minded ball winner there with Beckenbauer supporting him defensively as well as dictating play, but I appreciate the explanation.

I'd say a more well-rounded dynamic midfielder would have been a great fit (van Hangem, Schuster, Breitner, or heck Overath himself). Generally not a fan of specialised midfielders in a midfield duo in a 3-5-2 (be it lackadaisical playmakers or limited holding midfielders) . Wasn't overly fond of Didi either but could see his value here, as his playmaking ability was crucial to Enigma's set-up.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I'd say a more well-rounded dynamic midfielder would have been a great fit (van Hangem, Schuster, Breitner, or heck Overath himself). Generally not a fan of specialised midfielders in a midfield duo in a 3-5-2 (be it lackadaisical playmakers or limited holding midfielders) . Wasn't overly fond of Didi either but could see his value here, as his playmaking ability was crucial to Enigma's set-up.

I'd forgotten that it was a 3-5-2 when I made that last post actually, and I agree that you'd typically want more well-rounded players in that formation rather than specialists.

Well to me there are two approaches - the Gentile one to kick the shit out of him or the more positional intelligent defender who I'd rate higher in defensive ability than the rugged stopper and against the very elite tier of footballers in the mold of Maradona.Man to man I don't think any pure marker can take him out especially the 86 version, hence I'd go with the very elite tier of defensive players like Beckenbauer, Baresi, Scirea etc. Beckenbauer is the best fit out of the lot IMO as he can play in more advanced position rather than the sweeper type (Baresi/Scirea). Other option was Figueroa to man mark him, but IMO his presence in the box and ability to cover was more important in this game.

I prefer the latter to be honest a bit like Baresi coped with Romario in 94 - not chasing around him like a madman but being always at the right time and on the right place and making crucial interceptions, albeit not always being on the deck trying to foul him or tackle him.

On a side note I think 06 version of Makelele is not the former but the latter one, Makelele is more of a positional marker/tackler rather than dynamic hound type ala Davids.

My idea was also having Figueroa/Maldini stepping up in the zone if Beckenbauer gets beaten and intercepting Maradona and doubling him up when with the ball which both can do, especially Figueroa and use the spare CB to mind Cruyff with Moore on Ronaldo.

The overall approach was spot on IMO, with Figueroa and Maldini being superb choices to combat Maradona when he breaks through the lines. The rationale behind Beckenbauer in that position is solid as well, its just in this specific draft format that I had serious questions about 1970 Beckenbauer in such a crucial defensive role. With the specific tournament incarnation of Cruyff in particular getting scrutinised so heavily I just felt Beckenbauer was getting a bit of a free pass - like I say I didn't see him do much in the way of demanding defensive work in the bits of his tournament that I watched - and I'd have liked to really get into the nitty-gritty of his performances.

Like Joga mentioned, van Hanegem might have been the more convincing choice for me personally. He got through alot of defensive work while still contributing in possession.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Congrats @Enigma_87

 

[Enigma_87]

Congrats @Enigma_87

Cheers mate, appreciated.

I'd forgotten that it was a 3-5-2 when I made that last post actually, and I agree that you'd typically want more well-rounded players in that formation rather than specialists.

The overall approach was spot on IMO, with Figueroa and Maldini being superb choices to combat Maradona when he breaks through the lines. The rationale behind Beckenbauer in that position is solid as well, its just in this specific draft format that I had serious questions about 1970 Beckenbauer in such a crucial defensive role. With the specific tournament incarnation of Cruyff in particular getting scrutinised so heavily I just felt Beckenbauer was getting a bit of a free pass - like I say I didn't see him do much in the way of demanding defensive work in the bits of his tournament that I watched - and I'd have liked to really get into the nitty-gritty of his performances.

Like Joga mentioned, van Hanegem might have been the more convincing choice for me personally. He got through alot of defensive work while still contributing in possession.

Yeah Hanegem is nice. Well I mulled over for Neeskens or Beckenbauer, but to me and also based on his form in 1970 he just does everything a tad better than Johan and would compliment also Didi better. To me overall Beckenbauer was much more solid defensively in 1970 compared to 1966 yet the conception is usually the other way around based purely on the marking job on Charlton.

What's your take on Rijkaard dropping to CB on Maradona mate? I mean in the exact 88 performance where he was alternating a bit the other way around CB to DM.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Cheers mate, appreciated.


Yeah Hanegem is nice. Well I mulled over for Neeskens or Beckenbauer, but to me and also based on his form in 1970 he just does everything a tad better than Johan and would compliment also Didi better. To me overall Beckenbauer was much more solid defensively in 1970 compared to 1966 yet the conception is usually the other way around based purely on the marking job on Charlton.

What's your take on Rijkaard dropping to CB on Maradona mate? I mean in the exact 88 performance where he was alternating a bit the other way around CB to DM.

Yeah, positionally especially Beckenbauer fits the bill more than Neeskens for me.

I'm not sure I can visualise the Rijkaard thing mate. So he'd be slotting in directly for Beckenbauer in your line up? If so I think he'd be ideal for the role, far and away one of the best choices out there, but in this draft there'd be a furious debate as to whether it's close enough to his '88 role.

 

[Enigma_87]

Yeah, positionally especially Beckenbauer fits the bill more than Neeskens for me.

I'm not sure I can visualise the Rijkaard thing mate. So he'd be slotting in directly for Beckenbauer in your line up? If so I think he'd be ideal for the role, far and away one of the best choices out there, but in this draft there'd be a furious debate as to whether it's close enough to his '88 role.

Yeah I had the idea to use him as a DM dropping to CB a bit of reverse of what he has been doing in 88 tho as an aggressive stopper. Probably would generate as much discussion as Cruyff/Maradona tho and I really wanted to evade all controversial positional choices in an all time draft.

 

[harms]

What's your take on Rijkaard dropping to CB on Maradona mate? I mean in the exact 88 performance where he was alternating a bit the other way around CB to DM.

Rijkaard played such a strange role. I wouldn't call it a DM dropping back, I would say that they played with 2 alternating liberos, which is not blending well with man-marking job

 

[Enigma_87]

Rijkaard played such a strange role. I wouldn't call it a DM dropping back, I would say that they played with 2 alternating liberos, which is not blending well with man-marking job

I meant he played as a CB going into midfield, or at least that was my impression of him if we fit him tactically. He wasn't a traditional CB but probably as you said along with those 2 liberos I thought that Annah had a good use of him as a holding midfielder in that WM, albeit he himself faced a lot of objections for playing him there but not as a CB.

 

[Ecstatic]

Given the theme, disappointed by the 2 teams but in terms of individual quality gio/theon is better.

Just out of curiosity, are most of the drafts dominated by 5 at the back formations? Teams that progressed had this formation and it was pretty popular in the previous draft too.

I'd say the 3-5-2 tactical system and the wing-back are 'overrated'