Gio/Theon VS Enigma - NT peak Draft - Final

[Enigma_87]

He has Makelele?
Heck, I would've probably voted for
Müller - Eusebio
----- Pele ------
Didi 58 -- Kaiser 66/70
-----Makelele 06?---
Facch-Maldini-Moore-Amoros

Putting Makelele alone against Maradona would've been suicidal tactics for me. He alone would not eliminate Maradona out of the game in the same way I don't think Schweinsteiger can take Pele out of the game.

 

[Gio]

Not content with Maradona wreaking havoc? How about Il Fenomeno?

Those highlights packages can be deceptive, but rewatching a full match such as the 1998 World Cup semi-final against Holland confirms the sheer menace and excitement of Ronaldo with the ball at his feet. You can hear or see it in the defenders’ body language, the pitch of the ITV commentator Brian Moore’s voice or the noise of the crowd. “Ronaldo could start from the halfway line and the whole stadium would ignite,” said Sir Bobby Robson, his manager at Barcelona. “A current would course through the stands.”

That was because Ronaldo played like a winger – but he did so in the centre of the pitch, which made him infinitely more dangerous. He played like every attack had a 10-second deadline and the Brazilian would explode into life with no warning for defenders. His 50-yard dash in extra time of the 1998 World Cup semi-final, when he scorched past Frank de Boer and Jaap Stam before De Boer made an immense recovery tackle, is among the most exhilarating moments in modern World Cup history.

There were centre-forwards before Ronaldo who roamed and ran with the ball – Dixie Dean, Eusébio, Preben Elkjaer and especially George Weah – but none did it as devastatingly or excitingly. He did not get between the lines of the defence and midfield; he got between the lines of the defenders, with or without the ball. He did not pass the ball through the eye of the needle; he squeezed through it himself. His famous hat-trick against Valencia in 1996 included two remarkable goals in which he bulldozed through the tiniest gap between defenders. “He’s not a man,” said the former Real Madrid striker Jorge Valdano. “He’s a herd.”

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...aldo-40-birthday-brazil-greatest-ever-striker

Spoiler: Praise

“The best player I have seen in my career.”
Clarence Seedorf


“Ronaldo was my hero. He was the best striker I’ve ever seen. He was so fast he could score from nothing”
Lionel Messi


“What made Ronaldo different was his sheer physical strength. He is the best I have played with.”
Luis Figo


“I’ve never seen a player able to show such precise control at such a high speed. Watching him was like watching a character in a video game.”
Marcel Desailly

He is so quick he makes everyone else look as if they are standing still.”
–Alessandro Nesta

He’s not a man, he’s a herd. He didn’t come to France [1998 World Cup] to compete with the players of his generation but to seek a place amongst the best of the two millennia – this one and the coming.
— Jorge Valdano

I believe Ronaldo was easily the best player of WC 1998. As the voting reference, you look at the media vote. Ronaldo had no sympathy vote like Davor Suker and the Croatia "fairytale". But he had won with 21.3% of the vote, Suker with 10.8% of the vote. As the performance reference, it is still clear that Ronaldo was the best. In every match except the final, Ronaldo made major impacts — even if he was not scoring or assisting goals — with a very high level of dominance. Here are some of the nicer moments of Ronaldo from that World Cup.

[Group Stage — 1 goal, 1 assist]

1] Individual challenge — Escócia
2] Super volley goal — Marrocos
3] Dribbling assist to Bebeto — Marrocos
4] Creating clear chance for R. Carlos — Marrocos
5] Creating clear chance for Cafu — Noruega

[Knockout Stage — 3 goals, 2 assists]

6] Wins and scores his own penalty — Chile
7] Hits post — Chile
8] Scores second goal — Chile
9] Hits crossbar — Chile
10] Through-ball assist to Bebeto — Dinamarca
11] Through-ball assist to Rivaldo — Dinamarca
12] Individual challenge — Holanda
13] Weak-foot goal — Holanda
14] Bicycle kick cleared off line — Holanda
15] Clear penalty by De Boer on Ronaldo — Holanda

This is not even looking at some of the amazing dribbling runs that Ronaldo was doing at WC98 — if you look at the individual clips of him, you see these in every match. The best player in the world going into the World Cup, with all expectation on him, was the biggest star.

Apart from the fiasco in the finale, he was the best player of the tournament, in my opinion. With the clear chances made, the posts he hit, the attempts cleared, the penalty he was not awarded, he could have added even more to his goals and assists. As far as I know, Ronaldo contributed the most goals + assists [7] in the tournament.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I'm not quite sure what you're saying or why they couldn't have a similar amount of touches - there's nothing tangible there explaining what you see as the issue.

The issue is that you're playing two generals in the same team who - obviously - didn't play with anyone remotely similar in the relevant tournaments.

You can interpret the premise in various ways, I suppose, but to me you can't have Cruyff '74 playing his game in full alongside Maradona '86 playing his. It's not about details pertaining to precisely what strings they played on - it's about what basic function they had in their respective sides. To put it in extreme terms: Show me an example of Cruyff - in '74 - linking up nicely with a player whose role resembles that of Maradona '86.

In a standard fantasy match, the above is less important, as you can imagine how X and Y might compliment each other more freely, cutting more slack in terms of allowing for multiple playmakers, string pullers, main men, etc.

 

[Theon]

To put it in extreme terms: Show me an example of Cruyff - in '74 - linking up nicely with a player whose role resembles that of Maradona '86.

If that's the basis of the argument then that's fine - it's good to have it finally structured somewhat after three pages.

I think it's thoroughly unpersuasive quite frankly, for obvious reasons we can't show examples of Cruyff linking up with someone resembling Maradona '86. Unfortunately there's only one of those.

What we can see from the many highlights posted is that both Cruyff and Maradona linked with other players throughout the entirety of the match. They didn't play in silos and I see no reason why they wouldn't link up with each other, or why they wouldn't both have a similar amount of touches.

I'm still not clear on why the latter point isn't possible.

 

[Enigma_87]

Some spotlight for Eusebio as he's frustrated with his goalscoring ability is being questioned :

The early years and the battle for Eusebio's signature

Eusebio grew up in the Mafalala neighbourhood of Maputo in extreme poverty and lost his father to tetanus when he was just eight. Shoeless and often without a football Eusebio and his friends would simply stuff newspapers into socks to make a ball and play barefoot.

As he grew older and stronger people began to realise this kid was a bit special with a football. His talents however fell on blind eyes during a trial for his favourite team, Benfica feeder club Grupo Desportivo de Lourenco Marques. So the 15-year old went across town to rivals Sporting Clube de Lourenco Marques, a Sporting Lisbon feeder club.

His profile grew and later that year he was scouted by a retired Juventus goalkeeper, who despite his best efforts could not convice Eusebio's mother to let his son go to Italy.

Despite playing for a Sporting feeder club it was Benfica, whose own feeder club had dismissed Eusebio's ability two years previously that decided to offer the now 18-year old a contract worth €135,000 in today's money to sign for them, and after paying his mother and brother an additional €1,000 Eusebio arrived in Lisbon in December 1960.

Sporting however weren't best pleased. As Eusebio had played for their feeder club Sporting claimed that Benfica had no right to poach what they saw as effectively one of their youth players. The animosity between the two Portuguese rivals led to Benfica incredibly hiding Eusebio in a hotel in Lagos, southern Portugal for 12 days as they feared a Sporting kidnapping plot on the teenager.

After two weeks the debacle was settled in court, Benfica had not breached any laws in the signing of Eusebio and Lisbon's biggest club had just signed the man who would become their legend. And to this day perhaps only Pele and Santos can claim to have a similar level of reverence between fans and a former player than Benfica and Eusebio.


Eusebio's emergence and his early rivalry with Pele

Where the history books are largely devoid of the story of Eusebio's Mozambican youth, they pick up in detail after 1961. Eusebio made his friendly debut for Benfica on May 23, 1961 where he scored a hat-trick. Just eight days later Benfica became the first club after Real Madrid to win the European Cup, beating Barcelona 3-2 in the final in Switzerland.

The Portuguese side, already brimming with the talents of Jose Augusto, Jose Aguas and another established Mozambican prodigy Mario Coluna were now the top dogs in Europe. And with the signing of Eusebio they would remain at the pinnacle of European football for the better part of the next decade.

Later that summer Benfica were invited to a friendly tournament in Paris where they would face Pele's mighty Santos. Pele is barely a year older than Eusebio but by 1961 the 20-year old Brazilian had become the world's most famous sportsman.

But on June 15 of that summer Eusebio, to everyone's disbelief, would challenge Pele's greatness. Losing 5-0 to a vastly superior Santos side Benfica coach Bela Guttmann decided to give Eusebio a quick run-out for the last half hour. Just 17 minutes after coming on he had scored an insane hat-trick, one blast from 25 yards, another quick volley from the penalty spot and a third well taken one-on-one.

Benfica lost the game 6-3 but no one cared, Eusebio was the new kid on the European block and he even got his face on the cover of France's most famous sporting magazine, L'Equipe.

A year later Eusebio helped Benfica retain their European Cup title with two goals in a 5-3 win against Real Madrid. Later that year however Pele would once again humiliate the Portuguese and European champions in the Intercontinental Cup as Santos beat Benfica 3-2 in Sao Paulo and in the return leg Pele scored a hat-trick equally as impressive as the one scored by Eusebio a year before. Pele's third goal even included a great nutmeg on Eusebio himself in the build up.


Still a genius and a gentleman, but little silverware

Eusebio would have his revenge on Pele at the 1966 World Cup in England, but since their last European Cup victory in 1962 the story of Eusebio, Benfica and Portugal is one of heartbreak.

Benfica would lose in the 1963 European Cup final to Cesare Maldini's AC Milan, the 1965 final to Helenio Herrera's Internazionale and their 'catanaccio' tactics, and once again in the 1968 final to Manchester United, the lasting image of that game being Eusebio clapping United keeper Alex Stepney after his brilliant save to deny the Portuguese forward the winning goal in the last minute of normal time.

And in 1966, Eusebio would light up the World Cup with nine goals in six games, but fell short in the Semi-Finals against hosts England following a controversial 11th hour change of stadium from Goodison Park to Wembley by the English FA, which no doubt disrupted Portugal's preparation.

And if Bobby Moore's celebration with the Jules Rimet trophy is the most iconic and joyful image of the 1966 World Cup, Eusebio's tears after Portugal's loss to England is its most heartbreaking.


His records and life after football

Eusebio would end up winning 11 Primera Liga titles with Benfica after 15 years at the club he came to cherish as his home. His official goal tally for Benfica sits at 473 goals in 451 games and his career total stands at 585 goals in 582 games. He remains the only player in history ever to have a verified competitive goal ratio of better than one goal per game. Not even Pele, Puskas, Muller, or Di Stefano can claim that kind of a record.

Above all however Eusebio remained a humble and decent man long after his playing days. In a day when sporting celebrity and being a decent, moral and not 'out of touch' human being are often seen as two opposing traits Eusebio stayed a great guy long after he had hung up his boots.

His modest personality coupled with his fierce speed, (he could run the 100m in around 10.5 seconds) exceptional first touch, and absolute rocket of a right foot remain the lasting memories of Africa, Portugal and arguably football's greatest ever striker.

 

[Theon]

The Better Tournament Defence

Schmeichel vs Fillol

Fillol has a good World Cup in 1978 but in 1992 Schmeichel pulled off one of the most influential goalkeeping performance of all time - dragging Denmark to Euro 1992 success with a series of man-mountain displays against France, England, Holland and world champions Germany in the final.

Cannavaro vs Maldini

In 2006 Cannavaro reached the pinnacle of defending at the World Cup when he produced arguably the most influential central defensive tournament performance of all time. Following the World Cup triumph Cannavaro was voted first in the Ballon d'Or and came second in the Golden Ball to Zidane.

Maldini was excellent in 1994 but falls short of Cannavaro's influence by a comfortable margin.



Sammer vs Moore

Sammer was voted Player of the Tournament at Euro 1996 and won the Ballon d'Or following his barnstorming performances for Germany in which he impacted all phases of the game from his trade-mark sweeper position - ultimately he delivered the most influential libero performance of all time in an international tournament, breaking forward to overload the midfield whilst offering impeccable defensive stability in defence.

Moore had a great tournament but didn't quite reach those heights - and crucially there are question marks over his suitability for this role given that he didn't operate in a back three or as a libero.



Thuram vs Figueroa

Thuram was the highest rated player when he won the World Cup with France in 1998. In addition he came third in the Golden Ball - the highest of any defender in the tournament.

Figueroa was solid in 1974 but wasn't close to the Golden Ball after getting knocked out in the Group stages.

WC 1998 Average Ratings
7,10: Thuram (Fra)
7,00: Zidane (Fra)
6,95: Davids (Nld)

 

[Theon]

Not quite sure why you're posting Benfica videos @Enigma_87

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

To put it in extreme terms: Show me an example of Cruyff - in '74 - linking up nicely with a player whose role resembles that of Maradona '86.

That's a very harsh (as you say, extreme) and unrealistic expectation. If that was the requirement we'd be stuck with building replica sides with similar players.

I find "Player A has a big ego, so can't play with Player B" very arbitrary. When Barca got Deco, there were so many questions on how he'll be overshadowed by Ronaldinho, but he ended up the better player! There are enough examples where what people think will happen turn out wrong.

 

[Enigma_87]

Not quite sure why you're posting Benfica videos @Enigma_87

It's an excellent compilation that packs skills, goalscoring ability and some of his runs. A lot of the videos in there are from the world cup of 1966. It has some additional Benfica clips but it's an overall compilation. If it is against the rules I'll remove it?

 

[Theon]

It's an excellent compilation that packs skills, goalscoring ability and some of his runs. A lot of the videos in there are from the world cup of 1966. It has some additional Benfica clips but it's an overall compilation. If it is against the rules I'll remove it?

I'd just stick to the international videos for this draft.

 

[Enigma_87]

That's a very harsh (as you say, extreme) and unrealistic expectation. If that was the requirement we'd be stuck with building replica sides with similar players.

I find "Player A has a big ego, so can't play with Player B" very arbitrary. When Barca got Deco, there were so many questions on how he'll be overshadowed by Ronaldinho, but he ended up the better player! There are enough examples where what people think will happen turn out wrong.

I think you are not getting what Chester is trying to say here. We're having an international peak draft so the players are judged based on those performances. Gio/Theon has chosen Cruyff of 1974 and Maradona of 1986. They weren't auxiliary players in their respective set ups but the star players of their teams and the main playmakers of their teams. So we aren't judging the careers of both players but their actual performances.

 

[Enigma_87]

I'd just stick to the international videos for this draft.

yeah of course, so do I - but again a lot of the clips in there are from that world cup without the narrative, so it would be useful for some neutrals to get a glimpse at it.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

If that's the basis of the argument then that's fine - it's good to have it finally structured somewhat after three pages.

I think it's thoroughly unpersuasive quite frankly, for obvious reasons we can't show examples of Cruyff linking up with someone resembling Maradona '86. Unfortunately there's only one of those.

What we can see from the many highlights posted is that both Cruyff and Maradona linked with other players throughout the entirety of the match. They didn't play in silos and I see no reason why they wouldn't link up with each other, or why they wouldn't both have a similar amount of touches.

I'm still not clear on why the latter point isn't possible.

I can't make the point any clearer, I'm afraid. It's not about their ability to link up with others, it's about their basic function in their respective sides. If you think '74 Cruyff and '86 Maradona wouldn't either a) provide too much of the same or b) get in each other's way (or on each other's nerves), I suspect that we are interpreting the premise of the draft differently.

The latter is the key part. I wouldn't insist that Fantasy Cruyff and Fantasy Maradona can't play together after a fashion in some setup or other.

 

[Theon]

I think you are not getting what Chester is trying to say here. We're having an international peak draft so the players are judged based on those performances. Gio/Theon has chosen Cruyff of 1974 and Maradona of 1986. They weren't auxiliary players in their respective set ups but the star players of their teams and the main playmakers of their teams. So we aren't judging the careers of both players but their actual performances.

I don't think you get what Edgar is saying mate - No one is an auxiliary player, I have said that three or four times quite explicitly.

We don't have one designated ball player and I don't believe football works like that quite frankly - Both Cruyff and Maradona will be involved in transitions. I don't think that's too crazy or controversial.

yeah of course, so do I - but again a lot of the clips in there are from that world cup without the narrative, so it would be useful for some neutrals to get a glimpse at it.

Meh, 95% of it looks like Benfica clips so I don't really think its suitable.

 

[Theon]

I can't make the point any clearer, I'm afraid. It's not about their ability to link up with others, it's about their basic function in their respective sides. If you think '74 Cruyff and '86 Maradona wouldn't either a) provide too much of the same or b) get in each other's way (or on each other's nerves), I suspect that we are interpreting the premise of the draft differently.

The latter is the key part. I wouldn't insist that Fantasy Cruyff and Fantasy Maradona can't play together after a fashion in some setup or other.

The basic function is just a label - the 'star of the team', the 'main playmaker', the 'heart of the side'. It's meaningless other than how it translates into something tangible on the pitch (but virtually no substance has been provided on what that's going to look like).

I disagree. Much more fundamental in my opinion is their ability to link up with others - quite clearly, surely. It goes to the heart of the whole issue.

 

[Enigma_87]

I don't think you get what Edgar is saying mate - No one is an auxiliary player, I have said that three or four times quite explicitly.

We don't have one designated ball player and I don't believe football works like that quite frankly - Both Cruyff and Maradona will be involved in transitions. I don't think that's too crazy or controversial.



Meh, 95% of it looks like Benfica clips so I don't really think its suitable.

Well that's the thing it wasn't Cruyff and Maradona sharing the ball with anyone else or involved in the team play. The whole gameplan was based on them and the game went through them. They dropped back because they wanted the ball and the whole movement in the side was based on that. So in a sense I don't buy it either way - especially in this tournament peaks. It's not so easy to put one of them inside right and the other one inside left and expect either of them to be happy puppy with sharing 50% of the ball when the team is in possession. That's not either of them, neither in those incarnations.

Joga posted a lot of game highlights not only compilations so you can see the whole team transitioning around Cruyff and basically what his game was about.

On Eusebio I'll try to make a compilation on him and a profile but so far there is a lot of videos to process and haven't had the time before the draft end.

 

[antohan]

If anyone ever questions the fact tactics constantly evolve and change to address the current dominant tactic they should have a look at these drafts.

Two 3-4-1-2s in the final

While Enigma goes toe-to-toe, and Maradona-Cruyff caveat aside, I can't point to a single battle he wins clearly. Makelele would have worked well, but I think the resulting tactical setups (3-4-1-2 vs. 4-3-1-2) would leave him somewhat disadvantaged.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

That's a very harsh (as you say, extreme) and unrealistic expectation. If that was the requirement we'd be stuck with building replica sides with similar players.

I find "Player A has a big ego, so can't play with Player B" very arbitrary. When Barca got Deco, there were so many questions on how he'll be overshadowed by Ronaldinho, but he ended up the better player! There are enough examples where what people think will happen turn out wrong.

Forget the ego thing.

This is about demonstrating that X would combine/work/function well with Y based on relevant performances, not general traits or abilities. This is clearly stated in Annah's OP.

So, no - it's not that harsh. You want Cruyff alongside Maradona? Fine. Did Cruyff play with an extremely dominant playmaker in '74? Did Maradona play with one in '86? No? Well, go for something else.

Could Cruyff have played with an extremely dominant playmaker in '74? Who knows - possibly, depends on who, depends on a lot of things, but we're not supposed to enter that hypothetical realm here.

 

[antohan]

Forget the ego thing.

This is about demonstrating that X would combine/work/function well with Y based on relevant performances, not general traits or abilities. This is clearly stated in Annah's OP.

So, no - it's not that harsh. You want Cruyff alongside Maradona? Fine. Did Cruyff play with an extremely dominant playmaker in '74? Did Maradona play with one in '86? No? Well, go for something else.

Could Cruyff have played with an extremely dominant playmaker in '74? Who knows - possibly, depends on who, depends on a lot of things, but we're not supposed to enter that hypothetical realm here.

In a nutshell. I'm surprised they didn't just stick someone else instead of Cruyff, surely they have someone suitable with the massive high quality squads around?

 

[Enigma_87]

If anyone ever questions the fact tactics constantly evolve and change to address the current dominant tactic they should have a look at these drafts.

Two 3-4-1-2s in the final

While Enigma goes toe-to-toe, and Maradona-Cruyff caveat aside, I can't point to a single battle he wins clearly. Makelele would have worked well, but I think the resulting tactical setups (3-4-1-2 vs. 4-3-1-2) would leave him somewhat disadvantaged.

Raees/Invictus also had similar set up and I might add mighty fine incarnation of it, while Annah IMO offered great WM concept that he executed and developed brilliantly. So far this is my favorite side I've ever build and the most variations of tactics and transitions through formations in a draft.

 

[Gio]

If anyone ever questions the fact tactics constantly evolve and change to address the current dominant tactic they should have a look at these drafts.

Two 3-4-1-2s in the final

While Enigma goes toe-to-toe, and Maradona-Cruyff caveat aside, I can't point to a single battle he wins clearly. Makelele would have worked well, but I think the resulting tactical setups (3-4-1-2 vs. 4-3-1-2) would leave him somewhat disadvantaged.

We've got a stacked bench - Gamarra, Berthold, Zidane, Dzajic, Leonidas, Vieri.

But most importantly we wanted to challenge the convention that Cruyff has to be the pure 10 or false 9. He didn't play anything like a conventional 10 in '74 and what excited me from his performances was, not his dropping off the press to fizz a few passes around, but the devastation he caused buzzing along the breadth of the attack. I can understand the argument that you can't have one without the other, but I think one is a nicety which doesn't really hurt the opposition (great Cruyff has dropped into midfield, we can relax back here). And even assuming we have it, I don't see the problem - perhaps an occasional clash coming short for a ball, but it's hardly decisive stuff. And if he does drop, he vacates space for Maradona et al to hit. Hardly revolutionary stuff, but pretty consistent with '74 and should work here. Problem with Cruyff is he's everyone's hipster fantasy, and he needs to be mollycoddled into ridiculously contrived set-ups. But the footage of '74 shows his best work as a free-roaming attacker who could fit into loads of systems.

There's perhaps a point in there about ego, but they could just as easily hit it off. Cruyff doesn't tolerate incompetence or fools gladly but Maradona is neither of those, on the park at least. Neither were Garrincha and over-dwelled on the ball, they were both quick and direct and could quite feasibly strike up a hell of a partnership.

Could Cruyff have played with an extremely dominant playmaker in '74? Who knows - possibly, depends on who, depends on a lot of things, but we're not supposed to enter that hypothetical realm here.

Difficult though - the entire thing is relatively hypothetical. And I can easily turn that around. Did Cruyff ever struggle to play with another dominant playmaker? No, okay then.

Obviously I get that the onus is on us to make the case, but it looks like a case of guilty before trial here.

 

[harms]

In a nutshell. I'm surprised they didn't just stick someone else instead of Cruyff, surely they have someone suitable with the massive high quality squads around?

Dzajic, who in this draft is basically a one goal advantage from the start

 

[Gio]

If you're undecided, here are a few clips from Schmeichel's performance in the final of Euro '92 against world champions Germany.

Reuter chance after Sammer carves open Denmark through the middle

Ridiculous save from Klinsmann

Reaction save from Klinsmann header

Final - one-handed catch from a cross under pressure

That was after a semi-final where he defied the Dutch in a penalty shoot-out.

Nae luck Marco.

 

[Enigma_87]

I'm off to bed to catch some rest so good luck guys.

For calling it a night some saves from Fillol and the man in the sticks for out team:


The great save against Holland:


Compilation:





3rd in Castrol ratings for tournament best players:

conceding just 4 goals in 7 games. On the back of that tournament he was voted Silver ball in the South American player of the year rankings in 1978.

 

[Gio]

SUBSTITUTION: CRUYFF OFF, DZAJIC ON

Into the second half and time for Dragan Dzajic to stretch his legs down the left wing. His credentials are exceptional:

Player of the tournament lighting up an otherwise fairly drab and defensive Euros. Dzajic was in rampant form, clocking up 3 goals and 3 assists out of 8 goals Yugoslavia scored against France, England and Italy for Euro '68. Those defences boasted some top class personnel - he ghosted in behind Bobby Moore and lobbed Gordon Banks to knock out the world champions - and Dzajic combined both productivity and the dazzling dribbling we fame him for in unlocking them. Top scorer in 1968 and again in the team of the tournament in 1976, this time giving Berti Vogts the runaround, Dzajic has a strong case for producing the best tournament performances of any left-sided attacker.

@Annahnomoss
@green_smiley

 

[Gio]

The teams are tiring and the game has opened up. Nobody better than Dzajic to take advantage of the extra space. If there's a defensive weak spot in the opposition (aside from Didi), it's Amoros' right flank. Dzajic is likely to get the better of him, pulling Figueroa out of his comfort zone into unfamiliar right-back territory, opening up space for Maradona and Ronaldo to attack through the middle.

 

[Raees]

Fantastic sub.

 

[Moby]

I'm surprised they didn't just stick someone else instead of Cruyff

Probably the 5th guy or so to say this now.

It really is that obvious @Gio @Theon

 

[Moby]

Dzajic, who in this draft is basically a one goal advantage from the start

BOTD incoming.

 

[Gio]

Regarded by some as the greatest left winger in history, Dragan Dzajiv played for most of his career in his relatively closed homeland. Few ever got the chance to see him, until the 1968 European Championships. This proved to be the showcase that the player needed to prove himself against the world's best, and so he did, as Dzajic was the best player at Euro 1968, hosted in Italy.

Dragan Dzajic, whose delicate lob over Gordon Banks had eliminated world champions England in the last four, again appeared to have made the difference for Yugoslavia in Rome.

Vahidin Musemic and Dragan DZajic caused the hosts no end of problems, while 19-year-old debutant Jovan Acimovic typified the impressive composure displayed by a young Yugoslavia side. Their wholehearted display paid off when Trivic played in Dragan Dzajic who beat Dino Zoff for the opening goal.

Twice, Dzajic nearly added to Yugoslavia’s lead, though there was no lack of resilience needed to maintain their lead. Things were looking increasingly concerning for Italy, until Domenghini’s efforts were at last rewarded. After hitting a post in the semi-final from a dead ball, Domenghini made no error in the final, crashing the ball to Ilija Pantelić's left and into the Yugoslavian goal.

There was a visible sense of relief in the stands, which continued through extra time, till the referee blew the final whistle. The two sides were forced to meet again in the replay two days later. Italy won the replay 2-0, lifting the European Championship.

Yugoslavia ended up as runners-up of the Euro 1968

"Style of Play"

He was much loved because of his kind nature and easy-going manner, while on the pitch, he won admiration for being an exceptional left-winger who could both score goals and deliver defense-splitting passes with fantastic precision. The left wing was his territory and it was quite usual for him to take off, leaving all defenders in his wake to deliver an inch-perfect pass into the penalty area.

Dzajic was not withheld to creating, accumulating 424 career goals from the wing. The man could score from just about any angle and many of his successful attempts came direct from corner kicks. The player oozed class and was famous as a dead ball specialist. Gifted with vision and that rare gift, a killer left foot, he was already scoring "Platini-like" free kicks when the French legend was still in shorts.

Speaking on his heavenly performances, Pelé remarked, "Dzajic is the Balkan miracle, a real wizard. I'm just sorry he's not Brazilian because I've never seen such a natural footballer."

Dzajic’s delightful lob in the 1968 Euros against England led to the English press to christen him "The Magic Dragan".

“Honours”

Dzajic's professional career was spent primarily with Red Star Belgrade who won five Yugoslavian First League titles and four Yugoslavian Cups.

Dzajic’s sole Yugoslavian championship was the Mediterranean Games, 1971.
At the European Championship in 1968, Dragan Dzajic won the UEFA Euro Player of the Tournament, UEFA Euro Top Scorer and was part of the UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament. Dzajic featured in the UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament for a second time in 1976.
He won the Golden Badge in 1969, which is given to the best athlete in Yugoslavia, now Serbia.
He is one of only five players to have been awarded the Zvezdine zvezde, star of Red Star title which is awarded to those players who made the club famous.
He was the Golden Player of Serbia and Montenegroin 2004, which was selected by their Football Association as their most outstanding player of the past 50 years.

 

[Gio]

Probably the 5th guy or so to say this now.

It really is that obvious @Gio @Theon

See post above. Starting Cruyff was a matter of principle (best team on the park with his only-bettered-by-Maradona performances in '74) rather than a vote-winning manoeuvre which was always going to leak votes from the purists.

Not that Dzajic isn't good enough to start, but players of his ilk can often be even more devastating later on when the game opens up. After all he ghosted in behind Bobby Moore to defeat world champions England with an 86th minute winner in the Euros Semi Final.

 

[Moby]

See post above. Starting Cruyff was a matter of principle (best team on the park with his only-bettered-by-Maradona performances in '74) rather than a vote-winning manoeuvre which was always going to leak votes from the purists.

I can get with that, it is often quite interesting to get certain combinations that fit well in your mind and see how everyone reacts to it. Had the same 'principle' thing myself in this draft.

Not that Dzajic isn't good enough to start, but players of his ilk can often be even more devastating later on when the game opens up. After all he ghosted in behind Bobby Moore to defeat world champions England with an 86th minute winner in the Euros Semi Final.

Yep, the sub was made around 1/4th of the game to go which is good enough to make an impact, especially it is unlikely that the opposition could have taken a big lead till that point. You really should have started him though, him against that Amoros-Figueroa channel would have been a home run!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I don't agree that the incisive elements of Cruyff's game were the icing on the cake - I think it was pretty evenly balanced between the playmaking side of his game and and the side focused on goalscoring and effecting the match around the box.

I think that's clear from the specific videos you posted, as well as just generally his performances for Ajax and Holland (where his goal record is pretty similar to Ronaldo's funnily enough). I take the point you're making but let's not make him out to be Xavi - the traits you would typically associate with a second striker made up a huge facet of Cruyff's game. In fact I would go as far to say that he would be as likely to get on the end of a through ball as he would be to drop deep into midfield and play one himself.

In terms of the second part of your post it's clearly both in tandem, Cruyff was a dominant playmaker but he also played up front in a penetrative role for the Dutch.

Quite genuinely I don't see any problem with Cruyff and Maradona playing together, I've said it before but this 'too many cooks' argument is something that goes much to far in drafts - particularly here where there are only three forwards up top in a 3-5-2.

I'm not sure what people actually see as the problem - I mean practically what they think would happen. The team doesn't have a 'main man' and I'm not too sure what that even is.. Or if I would actually want one in my team. Presumably if transitions were so confined to one route then it's much easier to snuff out or counter. You could well be making a virtue out to be a vice (imo there is certainly an element of that even beyond that last point).

I mean practically what you must be getting at (when we translate these criticisms into something of substance) is that Cruyff or Maradona will be marginalised by the presence of the other - and the way that would manifest itself would surely be the amount of time on the ball. Now, I think that's nonsense quite frankly - Cruyff won't have 30 touches whilst Maradona has 90.

That's just a baseless assumption and we've seen countless examples of great forwards being equally involved throughout a match. There's a whole pitch to play in and clearly more than enough room to accommodate to players who are good on the ball.

So watching these two videos - what practically do we think is going to happen here that is such a problem. Not vague comments like 'they both want to dictate the game' or 'they both have dominant personalities', but tangible effects on the match. There's unfortunately been a lot of criticism on this (Moby actually has more posts than Gio which is unfortunate) but not much of substance.

From what I can see they both clearly roam all over the pitch and willingly link up with other players - there are countless one-two's and quick interchanges. Maradona in particular is hugely incisive as a player, he plays at an extremely high tempo and doesn't dwell on the ball.

In terms of specific passages of play, I suppose moments like 0:16 and 3:32 in the Cruyff video, and 2:10 and 2:45 are where the overlap unfolds in practical terms. Both players, at times at least, wanted to drop deep to orchestrate an attack, and the argument would go that the other players tailored their movement accordingly. Personally I felt that Gio downplayed that aspect of Cruyff's game excessively (he did win the penalty vs Germany from precisely that starting position), but I think you're spot on in your opening line there. He made plenty of incisive runs behind the defence in that video vs Argentina, and in general spent alot of time in the penalty area in that WC, even competing with and beating Vogts for headers in the final as Holland began playing more direct as the second half wore on.

I'm not sold on Cruyff/Maradona maximising either player, but I felt the extent of the 'dysfunction' was way overplayed here. Between them they could still do everything required of them and I feel the footage bares that out. In contrast, I'm not sure that the Didi-Beckenbauer midfield really ticks the boxes in the same way. From what I've seen of Beckenbauer in 1970 he was exquisite in possession but his defensive output seemed unremarkable to me, certainly in comparison to WC Schweinsteiger. If I knew nothing of his reputation I'd have been highly surprised if someone had told me he was one of the best defenders ever. There's an overlap with Didi there, and based strictly off peaks in the listed tournaments, I haven't seen much to suggest they'd nullify Maradona.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Difficult though - the entire thing is relatively hypothetical. And I can easily turn that around. Did Cruyff ever struggle to play with another dominant playmaker? No, okay then.

Well, the problem is that he didn't play with one in '74. You can't say that Maradona '86 can slide in, as it were, alongside him without this changing his game rather dramatically (compared to how he actually played in '74). And the same is, of course, true for Maradona - to an even greater extent, arguably.

See, to me this isn't about a) demanding "proven" to an absurd extent or b) questioning their general draft/fantasy compatibility too heavily - it's just my interpretation of the premise here: Similar to the Puskas discussion we had early on, really. Would he do well in setup A, alongside player types B and C? Sure, why not. But did he actually play in a setup that is close enough - and with player types that are similar enough - in '52?

If Player X didn't actually play with an overlapping fullback in Tournament Y - well, then he didn't. Whether he did so elsewhere, or whether he's generally suited to it, doesn't matter. If the discrepancy between his surroundings in the draft/match and his surroundings in the relevant tournament is too great - well, that's a deal breaker of sorts, as I interpret it.

Part of it will have to be hypothetical, of course, like always - and with some players it will be harder to nail down precisely what they did (and with whom). All that has to be considered. But with Cruyff and Diego I feel it's pretty obvious that introducing the other player would radically change things compared to what is supposed to be the starting point.

 

[Enigma_87]

Commiserations @Gio @Theon . Was a great game and as expected pretty tough in discussions.

I feel that Dzajic should've started for better balance instead of Cruyff as it was pretty off from the start. I can see why you have started Cruyff of course as he's likely to pull votes and to some extend I think he did for some of the voters, but Dzajic gives you a better side, although being inferior to Cruyff in terms of individual ability.

 

[Gio]

Congratulations Enigma, well deserved, strong drafting throughout the competition.

Commiserations @Gio @Theon . Was a great game and as expected pretty tough in discussions.

I feel that Dzajic should've started for better balance instead of Cruyff as it was pretty off from the start. I can see why you have started Cruyff of course as he's likely to pull votes and to some extend I think he did for some of the voters, but Dzajic gives you a better side, although being inferior to Cruyff in terms of individual ability.

Cruyff wasn't there to pull votes to be honest. His presence was always likely to do the opposite.

 

[Enigma_87]

Congratulations Enigma, well deserved, strong drafting throughout the competition.


Cruyff wasn't there to pull votes to be honest. His presence was always likely to do the opposite.

Cheers mate. I thought in the last reinforcement round you guys would've went with either Cafu or upgrade on Schweinsteiger. You had a great core from the off and have done brilliantly throughout the draft.

 

[Raees]

Commiserations @Gio @Theon . Was a great game and as expected pretty tough in discussions.

I feel that Dzajic should've started for better balance instead of Cruyff as it was pretty off from the start. I can see why you have started Cruyff of course as he's likely to pull votes and to some extend I think he did for some of the voters, but Dzajic gives you a better side, although being inferior to Cruyff in terms of individual ability.

Congrats mate!

Commiserations Gio and Theon, Dzajic I reckon would have won you the draft if he had started.

Cafu pick would have guaranteed my vote though.

 

[Enigma_87]

Cheers @Raees you had a fantastic side as well well worth for the final and winning it. Out of curiosity if you have made it through who would've been your last reinforcement? Matthaus?

 

[Raees]

Cheers @Raees you had a fantastic side as well well worth for the final and winning it. Out of curiosity if you have made it through who would've been your last reinforcement? Matthaus?

Yup..

KAHN
CAFU BERGOMI BARESI DESAILLY BREHME
VARELA MATTHAUS
MARADONA
VAN BASTEN EUSEBIO​