Gio/Theon VS Enigma - NT peak Draft - Final

Who would win based solely on their peak performances in the chosen tournaments?


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2 similar tactical systems with players deployed in a fantasist way like Cruyff or Moore.

The former, obviously.

Don't see him dovetailing nicely with Maradona. In a fantasy match with zero limitations, no particular premises, etc. - possibly.

Based on how they functioned in the tournaments they're picked for here - no.

You always have to cut the managers some slack when GOATs are involved - it's fantasy, you have to imagine pretty much every player on the park being a bit more subdued/less dominant than they were historically. But here we have a clear premise. Can't ignore what the players actually did in '74, '86, etc.

Good 'Executive summary'.

I have imposed myself so many constraints to have the positioning of the players faithful to reality.
 
We have so many instances where we take a break from reality. Would playing Stiles/Gentile result in a red card in a Draft? Pre vs post offside rules, archaic vs modern formations etc. We've even a seen game with Keane and Vieira in the middle. Playing style is one thing, but temperamental suitability is too far a stretch to be counted as a factor in drafts.
Well, generally I agree and usually give the benefit of the doubt and assume the players will 'work it out' etc, especially as the careers are vast and you can cherry pick your incarnation, like Chester said. Here though, it's pretty black and white and both have a handful of games as indication, and the overlap in playing style as Joga detailed above is quite obvious. Forgetting the ego factor, they both simply were absolutely central to their teams and having either as a sidekick would be sub optimal to say the least. The role Gio wants him for isn't exactly what he played as in the WC, and there are quite a few players especially as this being a tournament specific draft who would actually replicate their exact tournament in that role he wants from that player in that position. I don't have to tell you that, you had him before anyone else did in this draft and you surrounded him with players who would happily let him run the show for a reason. There's having another ball dominating playmaker in there and then there's having the 1986 Diego Maradona.
 
Well, generally I agree and usually give the benefit of the doubt and assume the players will 'work it out' etc, especially as the careers are vast and you can cherry pick your incarnation, like Chester said. Here though, it's pretty black and white and both have a handful of games as indication, and the overlap in playing style as Joga detailed above is quite obvious. Forgetting the ego factor, they both simply were absolutely central to their teams and having either as a sidekick would be sub optimal to say the least. The role Gio wants him for isn't exactly what he played as in the WC, and there are quite a few players especially as this being a tournament specific draft who would actually replicate their exact tournament in that role he wants from that player in that position. I don't have to tell you that, you had him before anyone else did in this draft and you surrounded him with players who would happily let him run the show for a reason. There's having another ball dominating playmaker in there and then there's having the 1986 Diego Maradona.

What was Cruyff's dream world XI? He had Pele (with Keizer/Garrincha on flanks) ahead of Maradona with Charlton / AdS and Guardiola Holding behind in a 3-4-3 diamond. He gave clear explanations that it would be a functional team. He did not have any problems pairing up Maradona with other playmakers!
 
The role Gio wants him for isn't exactly what he played as in the WC, and there are quite a few players especially as this being a tournament specific draft who would actually replicate their exact tournament in that role he wants from that player in that position.

That's my thinking as well.

Give the job to someone who played that role - more or less, that will always be the case - and who wasn't the unquestionable main man and/or focal point and/or creative fulcrum.

Spirit of the draft and all that.

There are some question marks on both sides in that regard, all of which have been mentioned already.
 
What was Cruyff's dream world XI? He had Pele (with Keizer/Garrincha on flanks) ahead of Maradona with Charlton / AdS and Guardiola Holding behind in a 3-4-3 diamond. He gave clear explanations that it would be a functional team. He did not have any problems pairing up Maradona with other playmakers!

Generally they tend to be more or less a best individual XI as opposed to a cohesive side, nonetheless am interested in reading the explanations. Any links?
 
What was Cruyff's dream world XI? He had Pele (with Keizer/Garrincha on flanks) ahead of Maradona with Charlton / AdS and Guardiola Holding behind in a 3-4-3 diamond. He gave clear explanations that it would be a functional team. He did not have any problems pairing up Maradona with other playmakers!
It wasn't in a World Cup draft.
 
That's my thinking as well.

Give the job to someone who played that role - more or less, that will always be the case - and who wasn't the unquestionable main man and/or focal point and/or creative fulcrum.

Spirit of the draft and all that.


There are some question marks on both sides in that regard, all of which have been mentioned already.

Henry 2000 :drool:
 
Generally they tend to be more or less a best individual XI as opposed to a cohesive side, nonetheless am interested in reading the explanations. Any links?

I need to search for the actual quote from the book. But this also helps...

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...ll-time-world-xi-pep-guardiola-makes-the-team

"Pele's enormous sense of responsibility connects nicely with Maradona's individualism," he writes. "I know for sure that during the match Pele would watch over Diego as a kind of guide, because footballers have a perfect sense for that kind of thing. And Maradona would give something back to Pele, which would allow him to be fully appreciated."

Cruyff's gameplay for me cannot be described as individualistic. He was the main man in that team, but I think his intelligence would have enabled him to function smoothly with Maradona.
 
I feel this shortchanges Didi a bit. In '58 he was as dominant and important as any CM playmaker has been in an international tournament. His range of passing and decision making was just phenomenal utilizing just about every other Brazilian on the pitch and controlling the tempo. I loved the way Didi calmly took the ball from the net and slowly walked it to back to center after Swedens went up 1-0 in the final. With this 532 vs 532 match where the flanks are mostly just 1v1 battles with Bobby vs Amoros and Zanetti vs Facchetti I could actually see Didi being Enigma's MotM where the wingbacks and front trio are complementary players like Pele, Eusebio and Muller who all would get the most benefit from Didi's skillset. This team seems built around maximizing Didi more than anything else. I definitely see him as being just as powerful if not more so as an xfactor or simply primary influence than Sammer and Matthäus
For all his brilliance in 1958, Didi's problem is that he is facing up to Matthaus. Anyone else in a World Cup draft and you'd fancy him to take control, but Matthaus in peak 1990 form is well placed to contain him. And then IMO Didi becomes a liability because Matthaus is likely to dominate him and that exposes Didi's weaknesses off the ball. Again he wasn't useless off the ball, but keeping up with a prime Lothar is clearly something he would be unable to do.
 
I need to search for the actual quote from the book. But this also helps...

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...ll-time-world-xi-pep-guardiola-makes-the-team



Cruyff's gameplay for me cannot be described as individualistic. He was the main man in that team, but I think his intelligence would have enabled him to function smoothly with Maradona.

Was more interested in the Di Stefano-Maradona duo but he doesn't really expand on that unfortunately.

No one has labelled Cruyff individualistic nor compared him with Best or Garrincha here. In fact playmakers have to be team oriented, or it just goes against the very grain of their roles. The likes of Di Stefano, Beckenbauer, Platini, Cruyff, Didi etc were playmakers who elevated their sides, but each were unique with some having a more dominant style than the others. Cruyff, Platini, Maradona, Di Stefano and the likes were more dominant and less conducive to playing with other playmakers than say, Beckenbauer, Suarez, van Hanegem etc. Doesn't make them individualistic or selfish by any means but rather the opposite given their respective roles. They thrived off the central role and had the ability to justify demanding such responsibility and the lynchpin role. Now pair two from the former group together and you'd get severe overlaps or a dysfunctional pair even, as you simply don't get the best version of either player.
 
He was the main man in that team, but I think his intelligence would have enabled him to function smoothly with Maradona.

Possibly. His intelligence probably would have enabled him to work well enough with anyone - if he had been willing to step back a bit and play more of an auxilliary role.

That's all hypothetical, though. Like I said, in a no-limits fantasy match, sure, why not - with some slack cut, etc.

As I've taken it thus far, though, a key aspect of this particular draft is to back up the choices with examples from relevant tournaments. Puskas, for instance, could undoubtedly have done this or that in a hypothetical match - but he didn't in the '52 Olympic tournament.

Cruyff is more difficult to nail down in that respect, since his game was so expansive. He undoubtedly did, in parts, what he's supposed to do here. The question has to be, though, in what actual capacity he did these things - which is where Joga's points above come in.

Making himself available, stretching the play, functioning as a so-called facilitator - sure, he ticks those boxes, but the above hardly characterizes his actual role in the team. He didn't do any of those things in order to accomodate a player who ran the show. He did that himself in no uncertain terms.
 
Cruyff was capable of doing those things above and he was one of the most dynamic greats out there, which was precisely what made him unique in relative to other greats. In the sense that it was the icing on the cake, rather than the cake itself.

Basically, would you qualify him as a dominant playmaker who is dictating the course of the play for his side, or more of a forward who would form a great duo of sorts with Ronaldo here with Maradona pulling the strings.

I don't agree that the incisive elements of Cruyff's game were the icing on the cake - I think it was pretty evenly balanced between the playmaking side of his game and and the side focused on goalscoring and effecting the match around the box.

I think that's clear from the specific videos you posted, as well as just generally his performances for Ajax and Holland (where his goal record is pretty similar to Ronaldo's funnily enough). I take the point you're making but let's not make him out to be Xavi - the traits you would typically associate with a second striker made up a huge facet of Cruyff's game. In fact I would go as far to say that he would be as likely to get on the end of a through ball as he would be to drop deep into midfield and play one himself.

In terms of the second part of your post it's clearly both in tandem, Cruyff was a dominant playmaker but he also played up front in a penetrative role for the Dutch.

Quite genuinely I don't see any problem with Cruyff and Maradona playing together, I've said it before but this 'too many cooks' argument is something that goes much to far in drafts - particularly here where there are only three forwards up top in a 3-5-2.

I'm not sure what people actually see as the problem - I mean practically what they think would happen. The team doesn't have a 'main man' and I'm not too sure what that even is.. Or if I would actually want one in my team. Presumably if transitions were so confined to one route then it's much easier to snuff out or counter. You could well be making a virtue out to be a vice (imo there is certainly an element of that even beyond that last point).

I mean practically what you must be getting at (when we translate these criticisms into something of substance) is that Cruyff or Maradona will be marginalised by the presence of the other - and the way that would manifest itself would surely be the amount of time on the ball. Now, I think that's nonsense quite frankly - Cruyff won't have 30 touches whilst Maradona has 90.

That's just a baseless assumption and we've seen countless examples of great forwards being equally involved throughout a match. There's a whole pitch to play in and clearly more than enough room to accommodate to players who are good on the ball.

So watching these two videos - what practically do we think is going to happen here that is such a problem. Not vague comments like 'they both want to dictate the game' or 'they both have dominant personalities', but tangible effects on the match. There's unfortunately been a lot of criticism on this (Moby actually has more posts than Gio which is unfortunate) but not much of substance.

From what I can see they both clearly roam all over the pitch and willingly link up with other players - there are countless one-two's and quick interchanges. Maradona in particular is hugely incisive as a player, he plays at an extremely high tempo and doesn't dwell on the ball.



 
For all his brilliance in 1958, Didi's problem is that he is facing up to Matthaus. Anyone else in a World Cup draft and you'd fancy him to take control, but Matthaus in peak 1990 form is well placed to contain him. And then IMO Didi becomes a liability because Matthaus is likely to dominate him and that exposes Didi's weaknesses off the ball. Again he wasn't useless off the ball, but keeping up with a prime Lothar is clearly something he would be unable to do.
That's taking it too far I think. Didi is successive WC winner in a side with Zito as a partner. Here he has probably the greatest defensive player of all time in Beckenbauer and Pele dropping deep like in 1970 helping out, yet he's labeled liability?

I haven't seen Didi being dominated in the way you describe it at any time, having faced some of the very top CM's of his era at the biggest stage. For one it was the other way around.
 
I feel this shortchanges Didi a bit. In '58 he was as dominant and important as any CM playmaker has been in an international tournament. His range of passing and decision making was just phenomenal utilizing just about every other Brazilian on the pitch and controlling the tempo. I loved the way Didi calmly took the ball from the net and slowly walked it to back to center after Swedens went up 1-0 in the final. With this 532 vs 532 match where the flanks are mostly just 1v1 battles with Bobby vs Amoros and Zanetti vs Facchetti I could actually see Didi being Enigma's MotM where the wingbacks and front trio are complementary players like Pele, Eusebio and Muller who all would get the most benefit from Didi's skillset. This team seems built around maximizing Didi more than anything else. I definitely see him as being just as powerful if not more so as an xfactor or simply primary influence than Sammer and Matthäus
It's less about his level (he obviously is one of the best and most influential midfielders of all time), but rather about style.

With those two teams, both beautifully balanced and tactically spot on, that "wildcard" is much more usable if it can break through the lines, which is what Matthaus and Sammer did as good as any others, especially in their respective position.

Didi can provide penetrative passing and control, and even shoot with his famous dry leaf, but he was isn't mobile enough to break the opposition lines and benefit from it before the opponents reposition themselves.
 
Furthermore on Cruyff:

At the end of the season, Barcelona were champions for the first time since 1960. They had not lost a match that mattered with him in the side, going 22 unbeaten before losing twice after the title had been clinched. It was, as it turned out, the only league title he won as a player in Spain but if that is a surprising limited return in terms of silverware, the impact now looks almost limitless – particularly when Cruyff the player is recalled alongside Cruyff the manager. When he is just Cruyff.

“Cruyff was a sensational player,” says his former team-mate Juan Manuel Asensi. “He was also a winner. The change in mentality was brutal. It was like we had been drowning and now we were pulled out of the water.” Cruyff recalled: “[Barcelona] were always thinking about inferiority, they had Madriditis. We were always thinking we were the victim but in my way of thinking there was no victim. I said: ‘Let’s look at ourselves, let the rest do whatever they want; we know what we want.’”

He knew what he wanted; the style was defined, one he remained faithful to as a coach as well as a player. Rexach says the change in footballing terms when he came in 1973 was “radical, a revolution”. He explains: “Back then football was: ‘Right, out we go: come on lads, in hard’ and that was it. No one studied the opponents. It was fight, run, jump. Then it was: ‘No, let’s play better football.’”

Cruyff was contagious, representing a radical shift at Barca, and not just on the pitch. As Asensi puts it: “With Cruyff, everything changed – the club as well as the team.” He defied convention, at every level; this was not only sport, it was society. “They said I was difficult but I was not difficult, I just fought for justice,” Cruyff said. “I’m from the post-war era; I was born in ’47 and all the people from my age were renewing everything – take the Beatles, all those kinds of people. I have always been renewing, always challenging.”

Rexach describes Barcelona’s 5-0 win over Real Madrid in February 1974 as the moment: the beginning of the current Barcelona model. In the crowd that night was Emilio Butragueño, a Real fan and later a legend at the Bernabéu, who admitted it was Cruyff, his idol, that he had come to see.

Cruyff was sensational, dominating a match that ended up having a huge political and social symbolism, one that he could only play because he had brought forward the birth of his son – a son he insisted on calling Jordi, like the patron saint of Catalonia, in spite of the resistance of the registrar. “I just liked the name,” he remembered, smiling a little mischievously. “[At the registry office] I said: ‘What’s not allowed? I decide: I’m Dutch. I decide the name of my son.’”

Cruyff decided, always. And his decisions were so often different. “It is better to fall with your ideas than someone else’s,” he insisted. He did fall too but he stood above.

How does Cruyff running around and looking for spaces and openings and peripheral role translates to what he actually did on the football pitch at the time and symbolizes his character at the time?

You have one of the biggest football figures and images and then telling him to play a peripheral role and off Maradona.

I'm pretty sure that Cruyff at the time will sulk at the idea of being shunted off the spotlight.

I love Cruyff and he's one of my favorite players so I believe he's wasted here. And if you take a look at the actual performance of 1974 and even at club level he changed everything at Barca, he was more of a coach on the pitch compared to who actually coached from the sideline.

I disagree on the notion we shouldn't take personalities into an account. For me a more fluid and better balanced team with equal GOAT distribution always wins based on being better as a team, rather than just sum of its parts.
 
I'd wager Rummneggie or Elkjaer or a whole raft of other forwards would fulfill that job that you'd want from that player between Ronaldo and Maradona than Cruyff. Reducing Cruyff to 'just' a final third threat isn't the optimal use of him, nor do I ever see Cruyff willingly restrict himself to a forward role

I'm not sure I (or any manager in a real life situation for that matter) would ever have Elkjaer or Rummenigge ahead of Cruyff quite frankly. I think you're taking the too many cooks argument to the extreme - okay Maradona is in the side, it doesn't prohibit Cruyff impacting the match in possession.

And for someone who rates Cruyff so highly you seem to be playing down his intelligence quite significantly IMO. Do you not think with Beckenbauer marking Maradona that's the exact type of situation that Cruyff would exploit throughout the match?

If Maradona is marshalled then Cruyff is intelligent enough to drop down into midfield, pick up the ball deeper and involve himself more in the transition.

It goes back to the point I said before - you're turning what in my mind is a virtue (having two exceptional playmakers) into a vice (they'll step on each others toes).

Speaking about things practically - Maradona will have a difficult time against Beckenbauer but the rest of that midfield is defensively quite weak, which is the type of thing Cruyff would exploit.
 
On Cannavaro - no doubt that he had a great tournament but trouble with statistics and awards is that they are highly subjective. Also Cannavaro never faced a forward of the quality of Eusebio, Muller, Romario at their pump and the likes.

Eusebio had a great tournament and hit 9 goals compared to Klose scoring 5 in 2006 and the next in line 3. There weren't that many bright individuals in 2006 and the awards usually tend to go to the more shiny names

C'mon, you can't play down Cannavaro's achievements because he apparently didn't face good opposition.... And then in the same breath you talk up Eusebio scoring 9 goals when 4 of those were against North Korea (and four were penalties!).
 
Possibly. His intelligence probably would have enabled him to work well enough with anyone - if he had been willing to step back a bit and play more of an auxilliary role.

See the post above but Cruyff doesn't need to play an auxiliary role - you can have two influential ball players in a football team.

I imagine they would have a similar amount of touches on the pitch.
 
C'mon, you can't play down Cannavaro's achievements because he apparently didn't face good opposition.... And then in the same breath you talk up Eusebio scoring 9 goals when 4 of those were against North Korea (and four were penalties!).
I'm not downplaying Cannavaro mate, just explaining some of the reasons for the Ballon D'or and World Cup rankings of the time.

Let's not pretend that North Korea game was walk in the park for Eusebio as well tho. His team was 3 goals down to a side that beat Italy 1-0 to get there and having Facchetti, Bulgarelli, Sandro Mazzola and Gianni Rivera in the side.
 
That's taking it too far I think. Didi is successive WC winner in a side with Zito as a partner. Here he has probably the greatest defensive player of all time in Beckenbauer and Pele dropping deep like in 1970 helping out, yet he's labeled liability?

I haven't seen Didi being dominated in the way you describe it at any time, having faced some of the very top CM's of his era at the biggest stage. For one it was the other way around.
I think it's a poor combination given what they're up against - Maradona and Matthaus. Beckenbauer was a box-to-box CM in 1970 best remembered for some sexy runs going forward. He's playing a role he didn't have at that tournament in any way at all. That aside, even in an all-time draft, I don't think he's well suited to a man-marking style job on Diego Maradona of all people. You really want him as the spare defender in a back line, covering and snuffing out danger, which is where much of his GOAT reputation comes from. In World Cups, Beckenbauer is either an adventurous box-to-box CM or a central defender. He's not a holding midfielder. Probably the best man for doing a job on Maradona is Makelele, but he's on the bench.

And IMO the best way to do a job on Maradona is a joint defensive midfield effort. But Didi is ill-suited to such an idea and would likely be overwhelmed trying to keep pace with Matthaus.

Individually and collectively, I think we control that area of the park. And that should be the decisive factor here - because it's so close everywhere else.
 
See the post above but Cruyff doesn't need to play an auxiliary role - you can have two influential ball players in a football team.

I imagine they would have a similar amount of touches on the pitch.

Think Gio put it best:

As for Maradona being a selfish dribbler, it's more the case he was a selfless and economical dribbler who created countless opportunities for team-mates. He typically wasn't the end of the move, but the creator setting up the striker. I get your point if it's about how dominant he was and you'd struggle to combine two massively dominant central personalities like Maradona and Cruyff for instance in the same team.

on top of their actual performances where they were the centerpiece of their teams.
 
I'm not downplaying Cannavaro mate, just explaining some of the reasons for the Ballon D'or and World Cup rankings of the time.

Let's not pretend that North Korea game was walk in the park for Eusebio as well tho. His team was 3 goals down to a side that beat Italy 1-0 to get there and having Facchetti, Bulgarelli, Sandro Mazzola and Gianni Rivera in the side.

You literally said that Cannavaro didn't face a top forward in 2006 when you were assessing his performance.

And it was North Korea - I'm not sure you can get weaker international opposition which is frankly lightyears away from Cannavaro, Thuram and Sammer.

on top of their actual performances where they were the centerpiece of their teams.

:lol: They 'were the centrepiece of their teams'.

More vague nonsense - that doesn't mean anything.
 
I think it's a poor combination given what they're up against - Maradona and Matthaus. Beckenbauer was a box-to-box CM in 1970 best remembered for some sexy runs going forward. He's playing a role he didn't have at that tournament in any way at all. That aside, even in an all-time draft, I don't think he's well suited to a man-marking style job on Diego Maradona of all people. You really want him as the spare defender in a back line, covering and snuffing out danger, which is where much of his GOAT reputation comes from. In World Cups, Beckenbauer is either an adventurous box-to-box CM or a central defender. He's not a holding midfielder. Probably the best man for doing a job on Maradona is Makelele, but he's on the bench.

And IMO the best way to do a job on Maradona is a joint defensive midfield effort. But Didi is ill-suited to such an idea and would likely be overwhelmed trying to keep pace with Matthaus.

Individually and collectively, I think we control that area of the park. And that should be the decisive factor here.

Didi held his own winning two WC titles with only Zito in the center. He's paired with Beckenbauer, Pele helps out and Figueroa is perfectly capable of stepping up. So yeah we are defending as a team and it's not like other players are isolated in the center.

For one Schweinsteiger is up against one of the best players in the game, so Matthaus will has his hands full defensively as well or you would think Schweisteiger would cope by himself with Pele?

You can't have it both ways.
 
It's less about his level (he obviously is one of the best and most influential midfielders of all time), but rather about style.

With those two teams, both beautifully balanced and tactically spot on, that "wildcard" is much more usable if it can break through the lines, which is what Matthaus and Sammer did as good as any others, especially in their respective position.

Didi can provide penetrative passing and control, and even shoot with his famous dry leaf, but he was isn't mobile enough to break the opposition lines and benefit from it before the opponents reposition themselves.

But that's not his role in how I read this setup. I don't see how that criticism is valid because that role you speak isn't what Enigma side needs IMO in that position. It needs exactly the skillset Didi provides.
Didi is the one providing the pass that breaks the oppposition lines and he is absolutely surrounded with players suited to do just that like Pele, Eusebio, Amoros and Facchetti who I see creating all sorts of angles to get in behind. And thats not even taking into account Muller whose movement can be crucial xfactor for the other four. Engima needs a dominant CM positionally and passing wise with the rest of the players IMO and in this draft Didi is the best he could ask for there. If you put Lothar on Enigma's side in place of Didi for example I don't think that makes it a better side in combination but rather worse.
 
You literally said that Cannavaro didn't face a top forward in 2006 when you were assessing his performance.

And it was North Korea - I'm not sure you can get weaker international opposition which is frankly lightyears away from Cannavaro, Thuram and Sammer.
I didn't say he didn't face a top forward in 2006. I said he didn't face a forward of the quality of Muller, Eusebio or Romario at their pump.

If you are negating what Eusebio did against North Korea because it's North Korea, disregarding all things considered and that weak opposition were 3-0 up against Eusebio Portugal and they were with one foot out of the competition we can move on I guess, otherwise I don't think we'll ever agree on that point.
 
Didi held his own winning two WC titles with only Zito in the center. He's paired with Beckenbauer, Pele helps out and Figueroa is perfectly capable of stepping up. So yeah we are defending as a team and it's not like other players are isolated in the center.

For one Schweinsteiger is up against one of the best players in the game, so Matthaus will has his hands full defensively as well or you would think Schweisteiger would cope by himself with Pele?

You can't have it both ways.
Well Schweinsteiger has superb credentials shutting out GOAT 10s in the World Cup. Admittedly a Pele in his physical peak of the early 1960s might have been a tricky proposition for him, but I think the wiser and less dynamic version of 1970 fits Schweinsteiger better.

2010 v Messi
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Zonal Marking said:
Right from the first minute Argentina were overrun in the midfield. Bastian Schweinsteiger picked up Lionel Messi, giving Sami Khedira license to get forward and support Mesut Oezil. With he picked up by Javier Mascherano, Germany were sweeping forward in numbers and overawing the Argentine central midfield.

The German midfield pressed well throughout the game, and the two central players dealt with Messi excellently when he moved forward – passing him from zone to zone and largely leaving Tevez to the centre-backs. Khedira and Schweinsteiger always made sure that whichever was not picking up Messi was always in a good position to sweep up ahead of the defence, and this increasingly forced Messi deeper and deeper.

2014 World Cup Final (Zonalmarking report)

Schweinsteiger

"Schweinsteiger had a tremendous game. He bossed play from his deep-lying role, completing more passes than any other player. He also made a couple of crucial interventions in his own penalty area to guard against Argentina’s early breaks – stopping the aforementioned Messi cut-back, then intercepting when Messi attempted to play the ball right to Lavezzi on the break. He also performed his defensive responsibilities well despite being on a (harsh) booking for over 90 minutes, and the fact both he and Howedes were cautioned after half an hour gave further encouragement to Messi and Lavezzi to dribble in inside-right positions.

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Schweinsteiger also helped to nullify Messi in his favoured number ten role. That’s not to say Messi had no influence on the game, but his best moments came either out wide on the right, or when sprinting in behind the defence. Shortly before half-time he received a ball over the top in the inside-right channel, forcing Jerome Boateng into some dramatic last-ditch defending, then at the start of the second half, he sprinted in behind for a one-on-one with Manuel Neuer from the left, pulling his shot wide. These were fine opportunities, but they weren’t Schweinsteiger’s responsibility – he forced Messi away from his favoured zone."
 
But that's not his role in how I read this setup. I don't see how that criticism is valid because that role you speak isn't what Enigma side needs IMO in that position. It needs exactly the skillset Didi provides.
Didi is the one providing the pass that breaks the oppposition lines and he is absolutely surrounded with players suited to do just that like Pele, Eusebio, Amoros and Facchetti who I see creating all sorts of angles to get in behind. And thats not even taking into account Muller whose movement can be crucial xfactor for the other four. Engima needs a dominant CM positionally and passing wise with the rest of the players IMO and in this draft Didi is the best he could ask for there. If you put Lothar on Enigma's side in place of Didi for example I don't think that makes it a better side in combination but rather worse.

Of course. Our team has a clear blueprint and distribution of the roles. The main playmaker is Didi and he's the right man for the job while the rest of the team have different responsibilities.

For one Didi and Beckenbauer as a CM duo in 5-3-2 is probably a dream pairing in terms of central midfielders - complimentary and far from what I call liability in any sense. I mean Didi is a 2 times world cup winner in a role with even less support considering one of the other midfielders on the right was Garrincha.
 
I didn't say he didn't face a top forward in 2006. I said he didn't face a forward of the quality of Muller, Eusebio or Romario at their pump.

If you are negating what Eusebio did against North Korea because it's North Korea, disregarding all things considered and that weak opposition were 3-0 up against Eusebio Portugal and they were with one foot out of the competition we can move on I guess, otherwise I don't think we'll ever agree on that point.

I'm putting his 9 goals in context - four of them were against North Korea and four of them were penalties. I think that's relevant.

Who is picking up Cruyff out of interest @Enigma_87 ?

 
so @Gio you believe Schweinsteiger will take out Pele of the game and nullify him by himself and won't require a great team effort? Especially when you have Muller and Eusebio as attackers - two of the greatest goalscorers in the game?

1970 Pele:



who had 3-4 defenders around him at a time?
 
I'm putting his 9 goals in context - four of them were against North Korea and four of them were penalties. I think that's relevant.

Who is picking up Cruyff out of interest @Enigma_87 ?



Ronaldo in 1998 which you are using scored 4 goals, 1 of them being a penalty against Chile. His total tally was 1 goal against Morocco, 2 against Chile and 1 against Netherlands. As I've said it's better we not go there and we can agree to disagree :)

Cruyff? Maldini, Figueroa, Moore or if he goes wide Amoros or Facchetti. Depends where the ball is(and whether it will get to him at any point).

Also a goal is a goal, including a penalty at the highest level. You can ask Baggio, Hugo Sanchez and the likes whether it's so easy to put it in the net.
 
I imagine they would have a similar amount of touches on the pitch.

They obviously wouldn't if they're playing their respective '74 and '86 roles.

But they can't. Which is an obvious problem. This isn't a pure fantasy match in which you can imagine how two footballing geniuses might link up nicely in spite of being similar to some degree.

If I read the premise of this draft right, you have to imagine how Cruyff '74 and Maradona '86 would work, playing off each other. You have to base your assessment on what they did in their respective tournaments, what they provided, where they operated, what sort of patterns they were a part of, etc.

Saying they'd probably work out some sort of 50/50 split between themselves isn't enough. It could be if we were simply dreaming up a match picture they could both appear in, but that isn't the case.
 
But that's not his role in how I read this setup. I don't see how that criticism is valid because that role you speak isn't what Enigma side needs IMO in that position. It needs exactly the skillset Didi provides.
Didi is the one providing the pass that breaks the oppposition lines and he is absolutely surrounded with players suited to do just that like Pele, Eusebio, Amoros and Facchetti who I see creating all sorts of angles to get in behind. And thats not even taking into account Muller whose movement can be crucial xfactor for the other four. Engima needs a dominant CM positionally and passing wise with the rest of the players IMO and in this draft Didi is the best he could ask for there. If you put Lothar on Enigma's side in place of Didi for example I don't think that makes it a better side in combination but rather worse.
I'm not criticizing Didi or saying that he should play the game like he isn't used to. I'm just saying that he, from that position, and Beckenbauer, who can do it in theory, but won't because he is tactically restricted, won't provide those disruptive runs. Neither will Moore. And you're right saying that Didi is a better fit for Enigma's midfield than Matthäus.

Matthäus and Sammer will - it's in their nature. And I think that in the game so tactically complex and overwhelming with the defensive quality on the show, those "wildcard" players can decide the game with one run/shot. Of course Maradona or Pele are more likely to do so, in theory, but they are all delegated between Figueroas and Cannavaros; Sammer won't be.

Take the infamous Scholes/Gerrard debate. Gerrard is a player who can break the opponent in half and decide the game in one crazy run. Scholes (at his peak) is more about controlling the game in the first place - and that's what makes him a better player, actually - Gerrard never was able to dictate the game properly so he always was trying to decide it singlehandedly instead.

But the thing is, in some games you need to break the ice - and in that moment you would rather have a Gerrard than a Scholes (and yes, I know that Scholes himself scored quite a few including a tie-winning screamer against Barcelona). Gio has two of them - Enigma doesn't (with Beckenbauer being an upgraded version of Zito)
 
They obviously wouldn't if they're playing their respective '74 and '86 roles.

But they can't. Which is an obvious problem. This isn't a pure fantasy match in which you can imagine how two footballing geniuses might link up nicely in spite of being similar to some degree.

If I read the premise of this draft right, you have to imagine how Cruyff '74 and Maradona '86 would work, playing off each other. You have to base your assessment on what they did in their respective tournaments, what they provided, where they operated, what sort of patterns they were a part of, etc.

Saying they'd probably work out some sort of 50/50 split between themselves isn't enough. It could be if we were simply dreaming up a match picture they could both appear in, but that isn't the case.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying or why they couldn't have a similar amount of touches - there's nothing tangible there explaining what you see as the issue.

I suggested they would have a similar amount of touches based on how fluid front threes tend to operate in reality - I don't believe that in the majority of football matches there is one forward who 'dominates' the ball to the degree being described here. And in terms of styles if anything I think Cruyff would have more touches than Maradona because that slower tempo is something more associated with his style of play.

Yes that is the premise of the draft. I just posted two compilations from Maradona and Cruyff and asked people to make their assessment based off that, so no one is dreaming up a match picture. Based off those matches you can see that both Cruyff and Maradona 1. Roam all over the park 2. Link up willingly with other players throughout the match. I don't see why they wouldn't pass to each other.
 
I'm not criticizing Didi or saying that he should play the game like he isn't used to. I'm just saying that he, from that position, and Beckenbauer, who can do it in theory, but won't because he is tactically restricted, won't provide those disruptive runs. Neither will Moore. And you're right saying that Didi is a better fit for Enigma's midfield than Matthäus.

Matthäus and Sammer will - it's in their nature. And I think that in the game so tactically complex and overwhelming with the defensive quality on the show, those "wildcard" players can decide the game with one run/shot. Of course Maradona or Pele are more likely to do so, in theory, but they are all delegated between Figueroas and Cannavaros; Sammer won't be.

Take the infamous Scholes/Gerrard debate. Gerrard is a player who can break the opponent in half and decide the game in one crazy run. Scholes (at his peak) is more about controlling the game in the first place - and that's what makes him a better player, actually - Gerrard never was able to dictate the game properly so he always was trying to decide it singlehandedly instead.

But the thing is, in some games you need to break the ice - and in that moment you would rather have a Gerrard than a Scholes (and yes, I know that Scholes himself scored quite a few including a tie-winning screamer against Barcelona). Gio has two of them - Enigma doesn't (with Beckenbauer being an upgraded version of Zito)
I think having a playmaker like Didi in the center and from deep pulling the strings in a 5-3-2 vs 5-3-2 is much more valuable tho.

Matthaus will have his hands full with Pele, Eusebio making runs of their own. Eusebio will drop deep, Pele will drop deep to pick up the ball and Matthaus has to mind his runs, Didi as well who is perfectly capable of shooting very accurately from distance while Schweinsteiger somehow keeps Pele in his pocket?

@oneniltothearsenal is making a perfectly valid point - the way both teams are set up there is much less space for any central player to take his time and use it in a way you have described. The space is saturated so would you have a Didi type of player who is capable of finding space to the flank or Matthaus doing the same? I get that Matthaus can make those forward runs, but he'll be running against Maldini and Figueroa in a compact space - it's not like there will be huge gulf of space in the center when the game pans like this.

Didi can control the pace of the game better than Matthaus or Schweinsteiger and Schweinsteiger himself wasn't the hound Vogts was to chase Pele off the pitch. For his job on Messi he had Khedira who did a lot of running for him so Matthaus doing the same would minimize the impact he could have going forward. As I said Matthaus is wonderful footballer but he's having too many tasks on himself here.
 
Probably the best man for doing a job on Maradona is Makelele, but he's on the bench.
He has Makelele?
Heck, I would've probably voted for
Müller - Eusebio
----- Pele ------
Didi 58 -- Kaiser 66/70
-----Makelele 06?---
Facch-Maldini-Moore-Amoros
 
As I've taken it thus far, though, a key aspect of this particular draft is to back up the choices with examples from relevant tournaments. Puskas, for instance, could undoubtedly have done this or that in a hypothetical match - but he didn't in the '52 Olympic tournament.

Cruyff is more difficult to nail down in that respect, since his game was so expansive. He undoubtedly did, in parts, what he's supposed to do here. The question has to be, though, in what actual capacity he did these things - which is where Joga's points above come in.

Making himself available, stretching the play, functioning as a so-called facilitator - sure, he ticks those boxes, but the above hardly characterizes his actual role in the team. He didn't do any of those things in order to accomodate a player who ran the show. He did that himself in no uncertain terms.

It's not about accommodation for me, more about how the space is used. Certain playmakers primarily operated and stayed central - Platini, Di Stefano, Rui Costa, Riquelme, Pirlo, Xavi, Valderrama, etc. Others would have a notional number 10 position on the teamsheet but would buzz around, horizontally and vertically, and get into wider areas - Cruyff, Laudrup, Rivaldo, Maradona, Charlton in some ways, Nedved at Juventus, Figo at Madrid, etc. I think you'd struggle to pair two of the central group together (except a very deep playmaker and a high one - eg Pirlo/Rui Costa). One from each group is do-able with careful planning. Two from the second group shouldn't be a problem. Particularly when you have one player in Maradona typically operating from the inside-right channel, and then another in Cruyff notionally from the inside-left channel. But both worked the full breadth of the attack.

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@oneniltothearsenal is making a perfectly valid point - the way both teams are set up there is much less space for any central player to take his time and use it in a way you have described
That's the thing - my main issue with your team is how you control that central space in front of the box - with Moore not doing what a classic libero should, Beckenbauer having to drop by why keeping an eye on Maradona? I'm not sure that there is no space for Matthaus here, in fact, it's the opposite. Okay, I'm repeating myself - and the more I go, the more pro-Gio I become, since I already voted and am now explaining why I did it. So I should probably stop posting in the thread, I already raised and explained all my suspicions anyway.
 
Makelele 2006 vs Maradona 1986?
Makelele letting both Didi and (!!) Beckenbauer play their natural game. I'm probably the most disappointed in a way how Beckenbauer is just wasted here
 
That's the thing - my main issue with your team is how you control that central space in front of the box - with Moore not doing what a classic libero should, Beckenbauer having to drop by why keeping an eye on Maradona? I'm not sure that there is no space for Matthaus here, in fact, it's the opposite. Okay, I'm repeating myself - and the more I go, the more pro-Gio I become, since I already voted and am now explaining why I did it. So I should probably stop posting in the thread, I already raised and explained all my suspicions anyway.

Well as I've said you have one auxilliary CB in Maldini/Figueroa who can always step into space. Maldini did it against Bebeto/Romario in 1994 while partnering Baresi in the center in that final while Figueroa often does it with his brilliant reading of the game. Moore also did it in that 1996 WC, as not expansive as Sammer of course.

Either way sure mate I think we got both our thesis so I can understand your point of course not necessarily agreeing with it :)