but you said you want the right result & don’t care about stoppages? So what if a linesman missed a ball going out of play 5 mins before a goal is scored? Or an incorrect foul is given or missed in the build up to a goal?
Get rid of VAR NOW! We want our game back! (...or not, some are happy)
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but you said you want the right result & don’t care about stoppages? So what if a linesman missed a ball going out of play 5 mins before a goal is scored? Or an incorrect foul is given or missed in the build up to a goal?
I meant in the context of a goal scoring opportunity. That should have been obvious given that's what VAR is brought in for. Your examples aren't directly linked to a goal scoring opportunity.
VAR is not fine. You can’t look at what’s happening all season and say it’s fine.
They result in a goal though? Isn’t it all about fairness though? If you’re willing to break up the game & review goal scoring opportunities then surely you’d want all areas to look at if it’s about fairness?
VAR is fine. The referees here aren't following it's protocall properly, which makes it a problem with them rather than the infrastructure of VAR itself.
They're meant to use it for clear and obvious errors, not any shit. They're meant to go to the touchline and review for themselves, it's there to inform the ref to take a better look on the video. It's an assistant, not an override. And yet the refs here just hear something they haven't seen and award or take away penalties, red cards etc.
Var is not as big an issue elsewhere. Yeah it has teething problems everywhere but it has more right outcomes than wrong. Maybe less here, but that's because our refs fail to follow its protocall.
It has to be in relation to a direct goal scoring opportunity. This isn't hard to understand, it's a compromise between fairness and keeping in the spirit of the game and reducing too many stoppages. VAR wasn't made to stop every play like its chess. It was made for specific reasons. You're getting muddled up.
If VAR can be used so badly then don’t you have to ask if the system is as good as you think it is? Why does VAR get a let off but when refs make mistakes on the field they get slaughtered?
You're literally talking like a guy who can't use a new phone, and then extrapolate that to every user and says the phone is shit for everything.
VAR works a lot better in other leagues, and international games. It works worst here. The problem is therefore with the people using it here, not with the technology itself.
I think you see what I’m getting at. You might be fine with that. Others may not & over time the cry will be ‘ We have the technology so why not use it in everything? Every decision? We’re living in the dark ages!’
That’s also a lie when pro VAR people say it works great everywhere else. It doesn’t, there’s been many complaints about it in other countries. But of course it suits your agenda to say it’s perfect everywhere else. Which doesn’t even matter as it’s ruining the game here
Have to laugh at the comments saying that VAR isn't the problem, it's the officials using it.
Even if we all agreed on that (I don't), it just takes back to square one where the fix is "get better officials".
Critical decisions will always be subjective. So given that there will always be debate and uproar over these decisions, it was a mistake to ruin the game somewhat by trying to appease the loudest shouters, who will always shout.
Even if we all agreed on that (I don't), it just takes back to square one where the fix is "get better officials".
Critical decisions will always be subjective. So given that there will always be debate and uproar over these decisions, it was a mistake to ruin the game somewhat by trying to appease the loudest shouters, who will always shout.
Any interesting links left by your Da?
I never said it works great, so why are you saying I have an agenda?
I said it has teething problems everywhere but it's getting more right than wrong. It's better in other leagues than here.
There's no agenda driven nature in my post. I can clearly see one in yours though.
I'm not sure what to think anymore. There are some positives. I definitely think players are messing about much less because they know they are being watched. So when there aren't actually any contentious incidents, VAR is working quite well, 
.
But all these marginal calls - including the time consuming offsides. And by marginal I also & particularly mean on the threshold of being obvious enough to overturn - the Alli handball yesterday being a good example. I think it was probably a penalty. But I understand someone saying maybe he was fouled.
Challenges are not going to reduce disrupting the game - will probably increase it.
And the offsides won't improve how long they take.
I'm also back to thinking that it just doesn't suit football because key incidents occur anywhere & at anytime - even rugby isn't like this, most of their middle field stuff hardly matters score-wise so is never relevant. Rugby is either much stodgier or in blocks of action. Cricket is blocks of action, tennis is blocks of action & entirely line calls.
I don't belueve everything is great everywhere else. But yes, they are making ours particularly dreadful.
.But all these marginal calls - including the time consuming offsides. And by marginal I also & particularly mean on the threshold of being obvious enough to overturn - the Alli handball yesterday being a good example. I think it was probably a penalty. But I understand someone saying maybe he was fouled.
Challenges are not going to reduce disrupting the game - will probably increase it.
And the offsides won't improve how long they take.
I'm also back to thinking that it just doesn't suit football because key incidents occur anywhere & at anytime - even rugby isn't like this, most of their middle field stuff hardly matters score-wise so is never relevant. Rugby is either much stodgier or in blocks of action. Cricket is blocks of action, tennis is blocks of action & entirely line calls.
I don't belueve everything is great everywhere else. But yes, they are making ours particularly dreadful.
Rugby has nailed the use of VAR.
Does that mean rugby just has better referees that understands the game better and know how to work in harmony with the guy upstairs seeing it on a screen ?
They virtually never fail to make to right decision and you even hear them explaining how they got to that decision.
That is almost light years ahead of the system that gets used in the Premiership.
So what does that mean ? it means they have better officials than football.
How that has been allowed to happen is beyond me and speaks volumes to how badly the Premiership referees are run.
Something as fairly simple to implement as VAR is completely beyond them.
Does that mean rugby just has better referees that understands the game better and know how to work in harmony with the guy upstairs seeing it on a screen ?
They virtually never fail to make to right decision and you even hear them explaining how they got to that decision.
That is almost light years ahead of the system that gets used in the Premiership.
So what does that mean ? it means they have better officials than football.
How that has been allowed to happen is beyond me and speaks volumes to how badly the Premiership referees are run.
Something as fairly simple to implement as VAR is completely beyond them.
Exactly
Rugby is more stop start & suits it better with easier decisions to make.
Football is more flowing & subjective & doesn’t fit as well
Some critical decisions are subjective, some aren't.
Of those that are subjective, allowing the referee to have a second look at close calls would inevitably result in a better subjective decisions. At which point VAR would have done its job.
At the the moment we have one subjective opinion possibly overruling another subjective opinion by way of a back and forth between the ref and VAR in which one must decide if enough of a mistake was made by the other, or whether the mistake wasn't quite enough for them to correct. Unsurprisingly, that system is less than ideal.
VAR isn't anything without the referees. It's just some cameras. There's zero new tech. They're not even using high frame rates. The tech is shite, the implementation is shite, the people are shite, and it's all completely unnecessary in the first place. VAR isn't fine. If it was a new, goal-line style automatic system which monitored offsides, then fine. But it's not. It's about as high-tech as me shouting at a TV in my bed.
Just get rid of it.
That's such a shit argument. It records incidents and allows a ref to replay and rewatch from an angle where he's better informed. That immediately makes it an upgrade on what he has already, which is nothing.
The implementation is shit. They never jog on to the side and take a look, and they don't have a clue what clear and obvious means. The actual system itself is fine, it's the referees failure to follow it.
It was never a valid argument that VAR would result in worse decisions, it was that it wouldn't be worth reducing the number controversial decisions slightly while massively impacting the flow of the game and celebrations.
One argument is that the main ref should look at a pitch-side monitor to improve consistency. But another argument is that VAR should comprise many independent referees (hundreds?) to rule by majority and "wisdom of the crowd". It doesn't end. There will always be ways of improving accuracy but we have to draw the line somewhere and I think we've gone beyond it now.
I have to admit the links of Brexit and VAR are really obvious now.
Ever increasingly it becomes obvious that some people swallowed a like hook, line and sinker, but just keep pushing their mantra. “Get VAR done.”
Meanwhile the same ones watch in incredulity as it all turns to shit.
Ever increasingly it becomes obvious that some people swallowed a like hook, line and sinker, but just keep pushing their mantra. “Get VAR done.”
Meanwhile the same ones watch in incredulity as it all turns to shit.
You got a new one @VP89 , good luck !
The difference in the relationship between the crowd and those implementing the decisions is important too.
One of the key differences with the system in rugby is that the fans can see the incident and hear the referee even as the decision is being made, which obviously leads to a lot more clarity as to what the hell is going on.
Whereas in football there is an extreme reluctance to show any contentious incidents to fans in the stadium for fear of how they would react. Meanwhile even those of us at home don't hear the conversation between the ref and VAR, specifically in order to protect the referee from extra pressure and scrutiny.
if i was minded to fix a game of cricket, its not the players or the umpires id nobble, its the people running DRS (crickets VAR) at any one game, some of the recent predictions from ball tracking to judge LBWs as well as some of the sound detecting (snicko) for edges has looked odd at best. same sooner or later applies to football and VAR. lets not forget theres been floodlight failures in the past at the behest of gambling / bookmaking groups..
Whats wrong with the technology? If anything, the crying on here is thst its too accurate.
Name one thing VAR as a technical kit has missed. What makes it shit?
All im seeing is crying about an offside in the Villa game that was offside and given by tbe linesman anyway and a Spurs handball which, again, was missed by the ref.
The fact we can nitpick decisions instead of categorising a large amount of decisions as levelling out in the long run shows its working.
Both instances would not have changed without VAR so this sudden outrage over the last few days is misguided.
Its crying just to cry.
Depends, are you into gardening?
Nah, he doesn't frequent the wondrous realm of the seedy interweb underworld.
VAR needs competent refs to use it. So why not just have these competent refs on the field ?
Great article in the telegraph today (paywall):
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...top-treating-match-going-fans-like-dirt-four/
4 points in it:
Instruct referees to use pitchside monitors
Show replays on the big screens
Appoint former officials as full-time video referees
Sack Mike Riley and appoint Pierluigi Collina
Couldn't agree more really.
VAR in the premier league is an absolute joke. The refereeing was already really poor and it's made it even worse...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...top-treating-match-going-fans-like-dirt-four/
4 points in it:
Instruct referees to use pitchside monitors
Show replays on the big screens
Appoint former officials as full-time video referees
Sack Mike Riley and appoint Pierluigi Collina
Couldn't agree more really.
VAR in the premier league is an absolute joke. The refereeing was already really poor and it's made it even worse...
It's been years since the public ask for better refs, we're yet to get them. They must be hiding very well.
Not necessarily. Rugby can run for quite some time after an incident as the refs will play significant advantage or let a suspect try go in case they’re wrong about a forward pass for example. You only have to look at how long after the final whistle a game can continue until a penalty is conceded or the ball goes dead.
It’s a case of the refs being much better and the processes being better refined IMO. There are times when the on field ref disagrees with the TMO but everyone watching understands the process and the conversations going on. There are times when they get it wrong still but people understand that they are fallible and move on.
I don’t think there’s any fewer stoppages in football. There’s no reason why they can’t play advantage until a throw in or goal kick and then run the tape but the main problem with VAR is three fold in my view:
1. VAR is being used, or not used, inconsistently
2. Nobody sees or hears what is being reviewed
3. The technology is portrayed as being super accurate to the point of being able to have an offside by millimetres, when in reality the frames picked, or not picked, for review could each be ‘right’ but have huge disparity in outcome.
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That sending off in the City game and the subsequent confusion, indecision and frustration should stop the VAR is only a problem in England narrative.
Timekeeping also a issue in that incident, at least 5 mins wasted in that event alone, only 7 added overall.
Timekeeping also a issue in that incident, at least 5 mins wasted in that event alone, only 7 added overall.
You mean Brexit and being anti-VAR? Both are correlated with the personality trait of (low) openness.
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Ref on the field should play the game as if VAR didn't exist whilst VAR should be in permanent use from the team off the field. Anything that the ref misses, they can correct in a few seconds assuming they are competent. The whole running over to the VAR box, the signalling of the screen etc is just pointless and takes all the passion/fun/intensity out of a game.
no with logic. It’s logical that brexit is shite & logical that VAR is Shite
Just read the first few lines and basically agreed with the premise of the correlation.
Now we know it doesn't work we should take a step back. I say it doesn't work because there is an erosion of the fun we fans have. We also have linesmen and referees not doing their job because they believe Stockley Park will decide for them, like after a close offside for a goal. The linesman keeps his flag down because he's not sure, the fans celebrate the goal only to be disappointed when VAR rules it out. I had it the other night on a handball. Chelsea 5th goal was disallowed for a hand ball by Abraham. It was a poor decision and many pundits have unfairly compared it to the hand ball that gave Chelsea their second penalty. The Ajax handball prevented the ball from going towards the goal from CHO's shot yet Abrahams handball only prevented the ball from hitting his hip which was 2 inches behind his hand. I would also argue the Ajax handball looked like the player actually tried to deflect the ball with his hand while Abraham didn't move his hand at all.
Maybe that one can be put down to the new handball rule but the offside rulings are mad. It needs to be changed. I've said before that technology can make offside decisions on its own with Stockley Park and this is where we need to be heading.
1) There are many decisions they can't correct in a few seconds, no matter how competent they are.
2) I'm not sure having the referee go to the sideline takes any more passion/fun/intensity out of the game than having the ref & players mill around while VAR is making its decision.
3) As for being pointless, it isn't. It prevents a situation where one person's arguably valid subjective call overrules another person's arguably valid subjective call, it provides more clarity to fans as to where responsibility for overturning an incident lies and adds an additional layer of scrutiny for subjective calls.
We have and theyre only human.
Theyve needed help since the game got faster.
Imagine asking a ref to keep up with Rashford or be in position for a Pogba 60 yard through ball..
1) Is this because its not clear and obvious? If so the refs decision stands. Why are we waiting for two minutes?
2) Any delay interrupts the game.
3)I don't think the fans in the stadium want more clarity about who made the decision. I want the match officials to make the decision. If they aren't sure they can look at the screen themselves but we need to move away from human error as best we can.
The goal line technology is great and everybody agrees with it because there isn't a human element. We can do the same with offside decisions by putting sensors on players backs and in the ball.