Get rid of VAR NOW! We want our game back! (...or not, some are happy)

[sullydnl]

Even the supposedly best implemented VAR systems don’t account for some clear and obvious errors. For example, james’ Yellow yesterday and lingard corner/goal kick against wolves. They were never going to get overturned in any VAR system.

There are obvious downsides to challenge system. But i feel its worth a trial if we are serious about VAR.

And I have no problem with those incidents not being overturned. It would be unreasonable to expect VAR to police everything.

The biggest issue with the PL VAR thus far though has been one that is specific to their version of the system, which is an extreme reluctance to have it step in on vital subjective decisions. It's a problem entirely of their own making, particularly as similar high threshold systems have been trialed and failed in other leagues.

Trust the PL to learn all the wrong lessons from other versions of VAR.

 

[Bastian]

Yeah it’s completely fecked. The whole thing. They’ve ruined the flow and atmosphere of games, with fans STILL feeling hard done by over crap officiating, every single weekend. What’s the fecking point?

It's a political disaster isn't it. They can't come out now and say "yes, we royally fecked up" so they churn out the same lines "it takes time" or "ironing out the flaws" when in reality it's reliant upon fallible refs in the monitor room making subjective calls here and there. All it does mainly is put a huge spotlight on absolutely unacceptable refereeing.

 

[ROFLUTION]

Exactly. People blaming the technology itself are misinformed. This is on the PL & PGMOL's rules they have introduced. It's not getting a fair trial at all.

This kind of logic for me is strange. The technology will always be involving human decisions and thereby a lot of subjectiveness.

VAR is always gonna involve people in the booth who are watching and deciding. I'm not sure if it has ever been the intention that technology in itself should stand alone - not sure that's even possible.

 

[sullydnl]

This kind of logic for me is strange. The technology will always be involving human decisions and thereby a lot of subjectiveness.

VAR is always gonna involve people in the booth who are watching and deciding. I'm not sure if it has ever been the intention that technology in itself should stand alone - not sure that's even possible.

I think the real point is that it isn't really the referees' or VA referees' fault either, it's on the PL. They've specifically implemented a toothless version of VAR that those involved have to operate within.

It would be one thing if VAR were intervening on subjective decisions in a subjective way. It's another when they're discouraged from intervening in subjective decisions at all.

 

[bleedred]

And I have no problem with those incidents not being overturned. It would be unreasonable to expect VAR to police everything.

The biggest issue with the PL VAR thus far though has been one that is specific to their version of the system, which is an extreme reluctance to have it step in on vital subjective decisions. It's a problem entirely of their own making, particularly as similar high threshold systems have been trialed and failed in other leagues.

I am sorry, I disagree. I am not being nitpicky, but the lingard goal/corner kick resulted in change of possession leading to the wolves goal.

That to me is a clear and obvious error that resulted in a goal and should have a been overturned and no VAR system has accounted for such decisions so far, because they are “less important”.

Even if VAR was properly implemented like you say, it’s only mainly going to be used for decisions within the box, I am sorry it would be completely unfair.

 

[Verminator]

The poll needs more options.

I am pro VAR, but most definitely against this FrankenVAR monstrosity being imposed to protect the vanity of our incompetent officials.

They were against it from the start, and I believe, are deliberately undermining it.

How can we have different rules, when we also play in UEFA and FIFA competitions?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I actually do feel technology is the way forward. It's just that A) you need more competent people making the VAR decision and B) if they're referred an incident their decision should be taken as final and exist in isolation to the referees call, because right now, VAR is being held ransom by the on field referees ineptness.

Firstly, most decisions on a football pitch are subjective. The clear and obvious stuff completely nonsensical in that sense. Secondly, in its current , it's being used to point out new information really, which is effectivtly the job of the 4th official. But it's not being used to overturn incorrect decisions which is where technology should add benefit.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

The poll needs more options.

I am pro VAR, but most definitely against this FrankenVAR monstrosity being imposed to protect the vanity of our incompetent officials.

They were against it from the start, and I believe, are deliberately undermining it.

How can we have different rules, when we also play in UEFA and FIFA competitions?

That second para absolutely nails it. It's exactly how it's being used right now. Referee is the master, we're just here to serve.

But how's it different in other competitions?

 

[Verminator]

That second para absolutely nails it. It's exactly how it's being used right now. Referee is the master, we're just here to serve.

But how's it different in other competitions?

The "high threshold" bullshit is something the premier has introduced on it's own.
Prior to the season starting, and in other UEFA leagues, if the ref gets it wrong, VAR overturns it. At worst, he is invited to view it, and change his decision.

 

[Spiersey]

The Prem 100% want to argue they have the best refs in the world and they’re going to point to the lack of VAR overruling the referee decision.

The issue is that var is refusing to decide on a decision. All the penalty decisions either are or aren’t pens. It shouldnt be a case of just going with the ref decision regardless of whether it is correct. Var decided it wasn’t a pen however if the referee had given it then VAR wouldn’t have overturned it and given no pen. That’s a massive flaw.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

The "high threshold" bullshit is something the premier has introduced on it's own.
Prior to the season starting, and in other UEFA leagues, if the ref gets it wrong, VAR overturns it. At worst, he is invited to view it, and change his decision.

That's how it should be. The system currently protects the flimsy ego of the referees.

 

[golden_blunder]

We've tried that for decades. It still lead to stuff like Sane's disallowed goal against liverpool

As technology improves, so will time lost checking go down. At the moment, for the most part most checks take no more than 20-30 seconds

Again, is 5 instances a season of a decision taking a few minutes worthy of avoiding 30 gross, obvious big mistakes? For me yes, abso-fecking-lutely

And var still leads to errors because it’s another human looking at a replay

 

[giorno]

And var still leads to errors because it’s another human looking at a replay

Yes. But it considerably cuts down on mistakes. Going from 95% correct calls to 99% is a huge step up. You have to accept that we'll never get rid of that final 1% until we're able to build cyborg refs

It comes down to whether you believe stuff like the martial penalty is more acceptable than small delays here and there or not

What's happening in the PL is a whole different issue, the problem there is you have the worst refs in the world and should sack and replace them asap

 

[redmanc]

Its subjective use is annoying as feck, either use it fully or dont have it at all, VAR was meant to bring fair and consistent decision making, instead with this half using it half not shit its worse than ever as the rules are not being applied properly.

 

[Random Task]

Its subjective use is annoying as feck, either use it fully or dont have it at all, VAR was meant to bring fair and consistent decision making, instead with this half using it half not shit its worse than ever as the rules are not being applied properly.

This.

All of it.

 

[Wumminator]

“VAR won’t work and will ruin the game!”

“A-ha! You Luddite. Don’t you know technology makes everything better you piece of shit? You are a forgotten man. Your ideals are awful. You don’t understand the future.”

*VAR doesn’t work and is ruining the game*

“Oh no. Wait. It’s the way it is being used. I could not possibly be wrong. It is the premier league referees fault. We just need more VAR!”

 

[montpelier]

VVD for the Matip goal was a FK under normal circumstances. He 'appears' to be climbing all over the defender.

But obviously you can't say the ref not giving it is a clear error. Except (imo) - he isn't giving it because it can be VAR checked. Try your luck with that as a defender.

It's unbalancing the game as well as being utterly shite for deciding anything fairly/accurately at both ends.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

“VAR won’t work and will ruin the game!”

“A-ha! You Luddite. Don’t you know technology makes everything better you piece of shit? You are a forgotten man. Your ideals are awful. You don’t understand the future.”

*VAR doesn’t work and is ruining the game*

“Oh no. Wait. It’s the way it is being used. I could not possibly be wrong. It is the premier league referees fault. We just need more VAR!”

so true...

 

[sullydnl]

so true...

It's really not. The problem we're specifically complaining about today is directly to do with the PL's interpretation of VAR as opposed to VAR as a concept, as proven by the other competitions where subjective referee decisions like the various penalty calls we've seen actually do get overturned. Hell, even the contrast between PL VAR and the VAR system we initially got at the WC makes that clear.

I get that the anti-VAR crowd want to crow a bit but there's no need to dumb down the argument by pretending VAR in one league isn't substantially different to VAR in another league, or that the PL's version doesn't have its own specific problems.

 

[Hound Dog]

so true...

The thing is, the EPL application of VAR IS the problem.

I dont think ive seen as many missed calls as this weekend in Premier League during the entire previous season in Germany.

 

[Treble]

The thing is, the EPL application of VAR IS the problem.

I dont think ive seen as many missed calls as this weekend in Premier League during the entire previous season in Germany.

Yup, the implementation in England is bad. This 'high bar' for subjective decisions is ridiculously high.

 

[Ban]

Excuse my ignorance but what's the difference in VAR in PL and other competitions?

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Its subjective use is annoying as feck, either use it fully or dont have it at all, VAR was meant to bring fair and consistent decision making, instead with this half using it half not shit its worse than ever as the rules are not being applied properly.

IMO a "challenge" system similar to NFL or tennis will solve this problem. Rather than being used at the referee's discretion, give each manager one challenge per half - if they challenge a call and it gets overturned they get their challenge back.

 

[sullydnl]

Excuse my ignorance but what's the difference in VAR in PL and other competitions?

The PL have deliberately implemented a higher threshold for what's required for a decision to be changed and greater emphasis on the referees not reviewing decisions themselves. Which has in effect made PL VAR next to useless on subjective calls.

We've had 30 games to see PL VAR in so far and I think only objective decisions like offside and handballs have been called? We've also yet to see a single instance of the ref looking at a subjective decision himself I think? Compare that to what you would have seen across 20 games of the WC in Russia and you see the difference in the PL's system.

 

[Ban]

The PL have deliberately implemented a higher threshold for what's required for a decision to be changed and greater emphasis on the referees not reviewing decisions themselves. Which has in effect made PL VAR next to useless on subjective calls.

We've had 30 games to see PL VAR in so far and I think only objective decisions like offside and handballs have been called? We've also yet to see a single instance of the ref looking at a subjective decision himself I think? Compare that to what you would have seen across 20 games of the WC in Russia and you see the difference in the PL's system.

So VAR is basically just a advice tool which doesn't oblige the ref in any sense?

 

[sullydnl]

So VAR is basically just a advice tool which doesn't oblige the ref in any sense?

It will call offsides and handballs but when it comes to subjective decisions it will only change something if the referee has actually made a factual mistake or missed something (e.g. if he says there wasn't contact when there was).

Also worth noting that where the WC and CL advised linesmen to keep their flag down on offsides unless they were sure (so that any potential onside goal would be allowed to stand) the PL hasn't, so you could have linesmen flagging onside players as offside before VAR gets a chance to intervene.

Basically they've made VAR as toothless as they can because they only want it interfering on rare occasions. Which would be fine if we weren't having delays while they check these various incidents anyway. If you're going to have those delays then there's no point in having a half-baked version of VAR that lets so much pass as you end up with the worst of both worlds.

 

[Majima]

It will call offsides and handballs but when it comes to subjective decisions it will only change something if the referee has actually made a factual mistake or missed something (e.g. if he says there wasn't contact when there was).

Also worth noting that where the WC and CL advised linesmen to keep their flag down on offsides unless they were sure (so that any potential onside goal would be allowed to stand) the PL hasn't, so you could have linesmen flagging onside players as offside before VAR gets a chance to intervene.

Basically they've made VAR as toothless as they can because they only want it interfering on rare occasions. Which would be fine if we weren't having delays while they check these various incidents anyway. If you're going to have those delays then there's no point in having a half-baked version of VAR that lets so much pass as you end up with the worst of both worlds.

According to this latest interview released today, even if VAR thinks the referee has made a mistake, it won't overturn the decision if ''his reasons replicate what VAR is looking at''.

Former Premier League referee Neil Swarbrick, in charge of the VAR hub said:

“When we looked at VAR and how to use it best, the fundamental emphasis was for refs to do what they do – and not even think about VAR. Telling them to forget VAR when it’s there may seem odd – but that’s how we operate. Make your decision and if it’s one that can be changed – a penalty, red card or build-up to a goal – explain to VAR why you gave it. So all the emphasis is on the referee.

If his reasons replicate what VAR is looking at – then it doesn’t matter what VAR thinks the decision should be.

That’s not what VAR is about. It’s about the ref making the right call – and setting the bar as high as possible.”

There is some interesting logic on display here.

Goes some way to explain what we have seen this past weekend.

 

[R'hllor]

Same farts spouting same bs, if anything, yesterday it showed that system is needed more then anything in PL, leaving things in hands of those pricks? Even with video they wont dare to overrule their their own on the pitch in non black and white situation, after all they have to look them in the eyes next time when they meet.

 

[Majima]

Same farts spouting same bs, if anything, yesterday it showed that system is needed more then anything in PL, leaving things in hands of those pricks? Even with video they wont dare to overrule their their own on the pitch in non black and white situation, after all they have to look them in the eyes next time when they meet.

The man in charge of it all has confirmed himself that the referee won't be overruled on his decision by var, if his reasons ''replicate what VAR is looking at''. It's there in black and white above.

 

[R'hllor]

The man in charge of it all has confirmed himself that the referee won't be overruled on his decision by var, if his reasons ''replicate what VAR is looking at''. It's there in black and white above.

/facepalm

 

[SilverPaper on the Breeze]

The game has gone. I fell in love with football aged 7, when England broke the hearts of a nation with their penalty defeat to West Germany. I’m from a United family and United are my nearest league club; ive followed them ever since.
However, I’m not far off walking away from the elite game. If the European Super League happens, which it will, I’m done. VAR is part of this process; wrenching the game away from its essence into this vapid, shallow, facsimile of what it can be. VAR, and the synthetic debate that it creates, only furthers the process of the game moving away from the fans. Watching football now is more like watching the X factor than what I grew up on. One local die hard is not worth a million Chinese fans.
I’m contemplating a season ticket at Altrincham Town for next season. The standard is crap, but it’ll feel less soulless.
I know this is a thread about VAR, but Bury and Bolton are going to wall and Marcos f**king Rojo pockets over £100kpw?! It’s all madness, and VAR is just another step through the looking glass.

 

[bleedred]

Same farts spouting same bs, if anything, yesterday it showed that system is needed more then anything in PL, leaving things in hands of those pricks? Even with video they wont dare to overrule their their own on the pitch in non black and white situation, after all they have to look them in the eyes next time when they meet.

In a few weeks down the line, I fear they are going to overcompensate for the lack of decisions by VAR and are going to intervene more. Just wait till you see Lindelof pulldown a striker and a VAR pen against us.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

It's really not. The problem we're specifically complaining about today is directly to do with the PL's interpretation of VAR as opposed to VAR as a concept, as proven by the other competitions where subjective referee decisions like the various penalty calls we've seen actually do get overturned. Hell, even the contrast between PL VAR and the VAR system we initially got at the WC makes that clear.

I get that the anti-VAR crowd want to crow a bit but there's no need to dumb down the argument by pretending VAR in one league isn't substantially different to VAR in another league, or that the PL's version doesn't have its own specific problems.

VAR as a system just isn’t workable in football. I know you want to protect it at all costs but the very reason var can be used differently in different leagues should be a massive red flag to you.

It will always be inconsistent as it’s just another ref looking at a replay no matter which way you spin it.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Same farts spouting same bs, if anything, yesterday it showed that system is needed more then anything in PL, leaving things in hands of those pricks? Even with video they wont dare to overrule their their own on the pitch in non black and white situation, after all they have to look them in the eyes next time when they meet.

Haha wow you’ll never admit it’s not working will you. Pretty sad.

So what you’re saying is it’s not working so double down on it? Genius. It’ll still be those same ‘pricks’ looking at a replay.

The tide is turning on opinion once people see how awful & inconsistent it is each & every week.

 

[Phil]

Of course our joke refereeing is ruining VAR. The old boys club won't change these poor decisions.

 

[Green_Red]

That penalty for Wolves. How? The same thing at City, no penalty. Our shout against Palace. This is worse than no VAR. Absolute joke

 

[Funky Futurista]

First step would be to change the rules of how VAR intervenes. It has to be able to overturn the ref on the pitch, and the threshold has to be lowered as it seems to be too high at the moment.

The next step would be to train a seperate, independent team of VAR referees. They should have education on video analysis and of course a referee education. There seem to be too much feelings involved from the VAR room. They're afraid of making a decision that goes against a fellow colleague the pitch. Seperating the on-pitch team and the VAR team could do a lot in solving this issue. The refs train together, they know each other well and meet each other quite often it seems. I'm not saying seperate the teams entirely, just that they each have their own focus. On-pitch refs and VAR refs are 2 different ways of looking at the game, and should be kept somewhat seperate.

 

[Wumminator]

As someone else pointed out, the PL can not change the threshold now as it would make the season hilariously inbalanced. So we either have a year of this shit or a year where the league is more unfair than ever. Cheers VAR.

 

[Micky Targaryen]

I don't even know what is the point of VAR if Martial wasn't even awarded that blatant penalty.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's really not. The problem we're specifically complaining about today is directly to do with the PL's interpretation of VAR as opposed to VAR as a concept, as proven by the other competitions where subjective referee decisions like the various penalty calls we've seen actually do get overturned. Hell, even the contrast between PL VAR and the VAR system we initially got at the WC makes that clear.

I get that the anti-VAR crowd want to crow a bit but there's no need to dumb down the argument by pretending VAR in one league isn't substantially different to VAR in another league, or that the PL's version doesn't have its own specific problems.

But your solution to VAR really is more VAR.

Opponents to all this nonsense are primarily motivated by the way it’s ruining the flow of the game, grinding to a halt every time there’s a significant incident in the box, while confusion reigns on the pitch and in the stands. We never gave much of a shit about this burning sense of injustice VAR proponents used to feel over human error.

To end up being told - just two weeks into the season - that the only thing stopping VAR from being a success is that there’s not enough of it is fecking hilarious.