Get rid of VAR NOW! We want our game back! (...or not, some are happy)

VAR - Love or Hate?

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bleedred said:
In the other leagues, the ref going over to verify in the tele was most hated among the crowd in the stadium. So the FA probably looked at it and thought, yeah let’s just kinda reduce that, which lead to this half-indulgent monstrosity.
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We already know why fans might not like it, but i think the FA should be more interested in making sure the rules are enforced properly instead.

We can have the exact same rules applied differently from match to match on the same weekend. I.e. Salah penalty shirt-pull given vs Martial's non-penalty against Kelly.

There's zero consistency. That can't be right.
 
Look on the bright side: worst case scenario it's going to make it very clear to everyone just how bad these refs are and what kind of an impact their incompetence has on the league

So when fans moan about the refs ruining the league, they will have evidence that they're right while the FA keeps employing people who couldn't ref a dick measuring contest :lol:
 
I think there was still less player misbehaviour in the Utd-Palace game than there might have been pre VAR.

Players seem to have realised they won't get away with a great deal.

Refs would be straight on to it too. To show how great they are on clamping down & so on.

Just the pesky in-game decisions that cause them the heartache, innit?
 
FootballHQ said:
Have to say I'm amazed at the lack of penalties being given. Compare this to World cup 2018.

Yesterday you had Azpilicueta nearly knee capped in penalty area, nothing given. Martial was being pulled off balance (more so than Salah) nothing given and today Silva gets clipped and nothing given, that incident was very similar to the Lanzini penalty West Ham got yesterday.

Football fans just want consistancy from decisions and you can't even get that with VAR.
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It's not the technology, apparently the PL are not using the same system as used with the World Cups.
sullydnl said:
The PL have opted for a very uncomfortable middle ground where they have VAR but use it in a half-baked way for fear of too many interruptions. Too much weight placed on referees' initial decisions, too little opportunity for them to correct their decisions, too much disparity between the rigour of policing subjective and objective calls, bad practice in terms of instructing linesmen on when to flag for offside, etc..
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lysglimt said:
I thought about that - but that was an innocent trip. And it would not have been given as a yellow card anywhere else on the pitch...but now that I have seen it in replay as someone pointed out, Zaha should have had 3 yellows (one for the trip, one for the clapping and then for barging through Pogba)
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The context matters here. He was denying McTominay from advancing on goal. I'd rather have the goal than the penalty.
 
Odd to bring it in and not use it to give obvious penalties after the first replay.

Don't they have monitors by the side of the pitch? Haven't seen one ref go to the touchline yet to watch although with the delays in FA cup ties in last two seasons maybe that's not a bad thing.
 
giorno said:
Look on the bright side: worst case scenario it's going to make it very clear to everyone just how bad these refs are and what kind of an impact their incompetence has on the league

So when fans moan about the refs ruining the league, they will have evidence that they're right while the FA keeps employing people who couldn't ref a dick measuring contest :lol:
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That's no solace after what happened yesterday. Have you seen the highlights yet? It was comically bad. :lol:
 
FootballHQ said:
Odd to bring it in and not use it to give obvious penalties after the first replay.

Don't they have monitors by the side of the pitch? Haven't seen one ref go to the touchline yet to watch although with the delays in FA cup ties in last two seasons maybe that's not a bad thing.
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Here you go. Whoever at the Premier League decided on these rules is an absolute moron.

When can VAR be used in Premier League games?
VAR will be used in all 360 Premier League matches this season.

It will only be used for incidents involving:

  • each goal scored
  • each penalty awarded
  • each straight red card shown
  • cases of mistaken identity
The technology cannot be used to advise on:

  • yellow cards, including second yellows
  • potential fouls in ordinary open play
  • to decide on corner or throw-in awards.
VAR can also alert officials of incidents of foul play missed by a referee, such as an off-the ball incident.



When is the Clear and Obvious Error rule applied?
Subjective decisions are the only ones where the clear and obvious rule is applied, and the PGMOL have instructed officials there should be a high bar in place before overturning decisions.

Incidents that are subjective include potential fouls given or not, simulation and handballs.

Factual decisions will not be subject to the clear and obvious test - they are treated as yes/no decisions.

These factual decisions revolve around:

  • was a player offside?
  • was a foul in or out of the penalty area?
  • was the ball in or out of play leading up to a goal?
That means even the tightest of offside decisions will be taken as factual yes or no, whether there was an obvious mistake made or not

No wonder a ref hasn't been sent to a video screen pitch-side yet.

If i'm understanding correctly, based on these rules, if the ref misses a potential foul inside the box, VAR cannot be used to overturn the decision. That completely renders the VAR technology useless. How that can be allowed i never know.
 
The first part is the standard VAR protocol

The issue appears to be this
Subjective decisions are the only ones where the clear and obvious rule is applied, and the PGMOL have instructed officials there should be a high bar in place before overturning decisions.
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Which refs have seemingly decided to interpret as "all subjective calls are correct"
 
It is absolutely hilarious seeing people who were posting “oh you must be scared of technology” now realising how shit VAR is.
 
giorno said:
The first part is the standard VAR protocol

The issue appears to be this
Which refs have seemingly decided to interpret as "all subjective calls are correct"
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Yeah that's not ideal. They should either go all in with it or get rid. The current arrangement is just causing more harm.
 
I am all for it if used properly. I like the stance on offside, offside is offside. The way they are handling pens/red cards is pretty fecked though, and this weekend especially was shambolic. Almost like they don't want to call out the referee for making a mistake.
 
Wumminator said:
It is absolutely hilarious seeing people who were posting “oh you must be scared of technology” now realising how shit VAR is.
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How is it the technologies fault when it is not being used correctly? VAR has shown itself to be beneficial when used correctly.

What's happening now with the rules is partly because the governing bodies, the PGMOL want to limit the refs being called out for incompetence every week.

Subjective decisions are the only ones where the clear and obvious rule is applied, and the PGMOL have instructed officials there should be a high bar in place before overturning decisions.
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Why wasn't this an issue with VAR in the world cups?
 
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Problem with the high threshold is that if a ref abstains from making the call he believes to be correct, in the belief that var will bail him out, then it requires a very big error to rectify the decision if the var has been instructed to not intervene unless a shocking error has occurred.

I’ve pointed that out during previous discussions that presence of VAR might mess with the decision making of the red, in which case the ref in the var room needs to act in a purely unemotional manner, ie which call is more correct in this particular situation, even if it’s omly by 51/49. If you can’t decide, refer the ref to the pitchside monitor. feck the delays, better a system that’s fair than one that delays and is still broken.

The WC system was fine enough. That should’ve been the starting point. Germany had the exact same issue with the high threshold and had to change their system.
 
Majima said:
How is it the technologies fault when it is not being used correctly? VAR has shown itself to be beneficial when used correctly.

What's happening now with the rules is partly because the governing bodies, the PGMOL want to limit the refs being called out for incompetence every week.

Why wasn't this an issue in the world cups?
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It was and people have chosen to put that behind and declare VAR a success when there were controversial decisions made through/ignored by VAR.

Even in other leagues, where it’s supposedly well accepted and well managed, there is howlers every other week.

Now that it’s in EPL, most of the car are starting to see the first hand effect of it.
 
What's the point of it if they can't make basic decisions that are obvious. Now Kane was just obviously fouled in the box, yesterday it was Martial.

Incompetence.
 
Someone needs to clarify how VAR works for penalty situations - not that I care much for Spurs but surely they were due a penalty there?
 
Anustart89 said:
Problem with the high threshold is that if a ref abstains from making the call he believes to be correct, in the belief that var will bail him out, then it requires a very big error to rectify the decision if the var has been instructed to not intervene unless a shocking error has occurred.

I’ve pointed that out during previous discussions that presence of VAR might mess with the decision making of the red, in which case the ref in the var room needs to act in a purely unemotional manner, ie which call is more correct in this particular situation, even if it’s omly by 51/49. If you can’t decide, refer the ref to the pitchside monitor. feck the delays, better a system that’s fair than one that delays and is still broken.

The WC system was fine enough. That should’ve been the starting point. Germany had the exact same issue with the high threshold and had to change their system.
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I have been against the VAR for years and I still don’t want it. But at this moment, if fans are still adamant about bringing it in, I would trial a challenge system, for almost everything. The challenge will be completely decided by the VAR rather than the ref.

The downside will be tactical time wasting but then again, football really had to introduce clock stoppages like 10-15 years back.
 
Definite pen for Spurs not given by the ref or VAR...it was a Phil Jones style tackle with his head which took Kane’s legs. VAR is wank.
 
Bastian said:
What's the point of it if they can't make basic decisions that are obvious. Now Kane was just obviously fouled in the box, yesterday it was Martial.

Incompetence.
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Personally don't think it was a foul that one but the VAR in the PL isn't a real VAR. Feels like the system is an appeasement in England and we don't see calls unless the ref misses it. Basically it's a glorified offside machine.
 
Yet another example of PL VAR's toothlessness. A completely avoidable problem they've brought upon themselves with their stupid high threshold on subjective calls.

This is the sort of VAR system you'd get from people who don't like or trust VAR as a concept.
 
Anustart89 said:
Problem with the high threshold is that if a ref abstains from making the call he believes to be correct, in the belief that var will bail him out, then it requires a very big error to rectify the decision if the var has been instructed to not intervene unless a shocking error has occurred.

I’ve pointed that out during previous discussions that presence of VAR might mess with the decision making of the red, in which case the ref in the var room needs to act in a purely unemotional manner, ie which call is more correct in this particular situation, even if it’s omly by 51/49. If you can’t decide, refer the ref to the pitchside monitor. feck the delays, better a system that’s fair than one that delays and is still broken.

The WC system was fine enough. That should’ve been the starting point. Germany had the exact same issue with the high threshold and had to change their system.
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It’s still a small sample size but as I posted in the Gameweek Thread this is exactly my impression.

Referees seem more cautious giving penalties / reds because VAR will in theory overturn

But VAR itself is currently very very cautious, which is overall leading to decisions not being given
 
bleedred said:
I have been against the VAR for years and I still don’t want it. But at this moment, if fans are still adamant about bringing it in, I would trial a challenge system, for almost everything. The challenge will be completely decided by the VAR rather than the ref.

The downside will be tactical time wasting but then again, football really had to introduce clock stoppages like 10-15 years back.
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Yeah I’ve been shouting about a challenge system for ages now, where teams can eliminate those ‘high threshold’ calls by forcing a check by the referee which would make it easier for him to change his mind. In that case he just needs to be 51% sure to change his mind.
 
Snow said:
Personally don't think it was a foul that one but the VAR in the PL isn't a real VAR. Feels like the system is an appeasement in England and we don't see calls unless the ref misses it. Basically it's a glorified offside machine.
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Agree with the latter part. Stonewaller for me though. He shouldn't be penalised for how he fouls when the defender barges into him.
 
Snow said:
Personally don't think it was a foul that one but the VAR in the PL isn't a real VAR. Feels like the system is an appeasement in England and we don't see calls unless the ref misses it. Basically it's a glorified offside machine.
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This is it. The amount of ref decisions that would be over turned (correctly ) is too embarrassing hence going with the decision with the ref on field
 
Anustart89 said:
Yeah I’ve been shouting about a challenge system for ages now, where teams can eliminate those ‘high threshold’ calls by forcing a check by the referee which would make it easier for him to change his mind. In that case he just needs to be 51% sure to change his mind.
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A challenge system would see more interventions than we currently have though, which the PL are twisting themselves into knots to avoid.
 
sullydnl said:
A challenge system would see more interventions than we currently have though, which the PL are twisting themselves into knots to avoid.
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They are going to have to move back on that if they want correct decisions to be made, which surely has to be the point. Otherwise they can just remove it altogether.
 
Bastian said:
Agree with the latter part. Stonewaller for me though. He shouldn't be penalised for how he fouls when the defender barges into him.
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I can see that a pen should be given there but like I said, it feels like Kane actively tried to get fouled there which I don't like being rewarded. There was no need for him to go down, he was through on goal but he chose to do so and that's the same as diving imo.
 
It’s ridiculous to imply that VAR will only intervene with calls that are objectively wrong, when there is no way to objectively characterise most situations on a football field.

They’ve missed some absolute shockers this weekend, where almost every single watcher will agree that the ref got it wrong. Yet it somehow doesn’t fall into the category of “clear and obvious” which makes a mockery of the entire thing.

It also seems clear that VAR looming behind the scenes makes referees hesistant to make the possibly controversial calls, which makes everything an even bigger clusterfeck.
 
sullydnl said:
A challenge system would see more interventions than we currently have though, which the PL are twisting themselves into knots to avoid.
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Even the supposedly best implemented VAR systems don’t account for some clear and obvious errors. For example, james’ Yellow yesterday and lingard corner/goal kick against wolves. They were never going to get overturned in any VAR system.

There are obvious downsides to challenge system. But i feel its worth a trial if we are serious about VAR.
 
I was hugely in favor of VAR in the beginning and even last season in the cup games and world cup. At least it was mostly consistent with how it was used. These inconsistencies in when its checked and purely incorrect decisions by VAR will be the death of it.
 
I’m so glad I was proved wrong & that I was just living in the Stone Age & it’ll get better & it’s a big improvement for football.

It’s awful & needs to go. When you have another ref looking at a replay you’ll never get consistently. VAR is a flawed system from the outset
 
sullydnl said:
Yet another example of PL VAR's toothlessness. A completely avoidable problem they've brought upon themselves with their stupid high threshold on subjective calls.

This is the sort of VAR system you'd get from people who don't like or trust VAR as a concept.
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Exactly. People blaming the technology itself are misinformed. This is on the PL & PGMOL's rules they have introduced. It's not getting a fair trial at all.
 
Jed I. Knight said:
It’s ridiculous to imply that VAR will only intervene with calls that are objectively wrong, when there is no way to objectively characterise most situations on a football field.

They’ve missed some absolute shockers this weekend, where almost every single watcher will agree that the ref got it wrong. Yet it somehow doesn’t fall into the category of “clear and obvious” which makes a mockery of the entire thing.

It also seems clear that VAR looming behind the scenes makes referees hesistant to make the possibly controversial calls, which makes everything an even bigger clusterfeck.
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Yeah it’s completely fecked. The whole thing. They’ve ruined the flow and atmosphere of games, with fans STILL feeling hard done by over crap officiating, every single weekend. What’s the fecking point?
 
Don't see the point of VAR if we can't overturn blatantly obvious decisions. It seems there's a bias towards the referees initial call which renders the video evidence a bit pointless. It shouldn't be to correct some facts the referee missed but also be capable of correcting his poor judgment. Who takes the VAR call - a different ref or the main ref?

Because the Martial penalty was clear and obvious in any way possible. At every part of the ptich that's a foul. He absolutely killed the CB with his touch and was pulled to the floor. Seemed obvious they didn't want the referees call to be officially deemed incorrect.
 
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