So excellent, we lost 6-0 to an inept Spain. Our midfield was so tight in that game, I tell you.
If you are not able to see the difference between Gündogan and Goretzka, when it comes to all physical aspects of the game, you're truly lost
Germany - Euro 2021 discussion
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So excellent, we lost 6-0 to an inept Spain. Our midfield was so tight in that game, I tell you.
If you are not able to see the difference between Gündogan and Goretzka, when it comes to all physical aspects of the game, you're truly lost
Cheers mate, appreciate the update. How important is
Thanks for the update. How important is Müller to the current team's set-up? I can't imagine the 2014 Germany team's success without him but for some reason, he always struggle in the Euros as compared to the World Cup where he performs bar 2018 of course.
Müller out really hurts. Even if he wasn't really decisive as of now, I think he's really important for the team structure and stability. Some others need to step up now.
Quite ironic that you mention the Spain game. I mean, losing 6:0 to the team with probably the least physicality among all top teams isn't really a great argument for your case.
The thing with Goretzka is, he's a real asset in the gegenpressing and he's also very, very good at attacking the box and providing superiority that way. But Gündogan is, too, yet in a different way. He played a bit like David Silva last season - finding spaces, being extremely good with the ball at his feet, releasing it at the right times, finding pockets of space for finishes etc.
But in the current system, that's not really what's asked of the CMs. They can't push forward, they need to recycle possession and bring others into play and Gündogan is far better at that than Goretzka. I mean, if we can turn Goretzka into some sort of defensive midfielder I'm all for including him (although I believe we would have to find a different position for Gündogan then because he's too good to be dropped) but chances are that he can't just turn a switch in his head and suddenly be a Kanté type of midfielder. It's like asking him to play RB just because he generally has the abilities for that position.
Very good.
Quite ironic that you mention the Spain game. I mean, losing 6:0 to the team with probably the least physicality among all top teams isn't really a great argument for your case.
The thing with Goretzka is, he's a real asset in the gegenpressing and he's also very, very good at attacking the box and providing superiority that way. But Gündogan is, too, yet in a different way. He played a bit like David Silva last season - finding spaces, being extremely good with the ball at his feet, releasing it at the right times, finding pockets of space for finishes etc.
But in the current system, that's not really what's asked of the CMs. They can't push forward, they need to recycle possession and bring others into play and Gündogan is far better at that than Goretzka. I mean, if we can turn Goretzka into some sort of defensive midfielder I'm all for including him (although I believe we would have to find a different position for Gündogan then because he's too good to be dropped) but chances are that he can't just turn a switch in his head and suddenly be a Kanté type of midfielder. It's like asking him to play RB just because he generally has the abilities for that position.
Very good.
He certainly was immensely important in the Portugal match. Even if you just watch the highlights you'll see him involved in every single one of our goals including the disallowed one. Much has been written about how our wing backs were in acres of space all game whenever we attacked, and it was Müller again and again who played the ball into these spaces for them to create the goals. I think only for the fourth goal he didn't play the penultimate pass, but he won the ball for us ahead of a defender to keep the attack alive.
I really really like that Goretzka and Kimmich are vocal about fighting homophobia, racism and the covid denier. It is nice that they refrain from empty phrases.
It actually underlines my argument even more. Even against a rather non-phyiscal squad, like that of Spain, we had large open spaces in our midfield the opponent could easily exploit.
All of Gündogan's cleverness didn't conceal the fact that he doesn't run, doesn't win duels, and doesn't close gaps. He's a number 10, and flourishes in that role. A complete central midfielder, he is not.
He's one if need be, and a good one. Who do you think does all the engine room work in Bayern's midfield? Tip: It's not Kimmich. I think we've reached the point again, where you notice that you've gotten yourself in a rabbit hole, and now you're trying to move the goalpost again, by making another bold claim.
That's one way of looking at it. Teams like Spain welcome physicality and verticality by the opponent because it enables them to play to their strengthes. They patiently recycle possession and wait until the opponent exposes himself to then attack the space. And while they are moving the ball around, the other team has no opportunity to find spaces either. Germany tried to play very vertical after the WC 2018 disaster without having the players for it and this culminated in the game we're talking about, being shown their place by the exact play style they abandoned.
And Gündogan is most definitely not a 10. Maybe he was for Nürnberg but definitely not for Dortmund or City. He's an 8, same as Goretzka, just in a different way.
Chill, mate. I don't know what triggered you so hard but there's really no need for this. We're disagreeing about which world class midfielder should play, nobody here is defending a ridiculous opinion or moving any goal posts. I'm just arguing that Goretzka isn't a defensive midfielder although he definitely possesses the physique and skill set for it. But he's used to forward defending and attacking the box from a three man midfield position, he's not one to shield the defensive line and close down space and you can't just assume that he does it flawlessly if he's asked to do it. That's not a riduclous stance either. Not too long ago, do.ob argued the same point. IMO, neither Goretzka nor Gündogan are a good fit for the CM in a 3-4-2-1 but Gündogan simply possesses a few skills I think are more important in this position in this system, mainly pressing resistance and passing ability. Nothing outrageous really.
You don't even need to look at stats (or ignore that Kroos also got dribbled past four times against France). It's sufficient to look at a highlight video of the game against France to see how well Kroos helped in defense in the key moments. And to call a game unlucky, where VAR had to overturn two goals by narrow margins and Hummels just barely avoided a penalty and possible red card, while die Mannschaft still lost 0-1, well I don't mean to be offensive, but that's bordering on delusional.
I don't think it is delusional. France scored the opener via an own goal from their first half chance. That goal changed the whole game since France could leave the initiative completely to Germany. Chasing a lead always exposes spaces and everything that happened after that goal has to be seen in this context. IMO this alone is enough to call a relatively tight loss "unlucky". Chances are that a good proportion of the chances that were conceded afterwards wouldn't have been created if Germany didn't have to risk more.
Anyway, even ignoring this dynamic (and ignoring that the chances were offsite), if there were such gaping holes in the defensive shape as you suggest, France would've had easy paths to the goal. Yet almost every chance they created, offsite or not, was created by one or multiple world class plays that were incredibly hard to defend.
So yeah, for me the criticism is over the top regarding this match.
Even the 0-1 wasn't really unlucky. It was a good attack (facilitated by Kroos' refusal to defend by the way), that forced Hummels into a desperate attempt. And sure, if we ignore the 0-1, Rabiot hitting the Post, the offside goal, the other offside goal and Hummels' last man tackle, because it doesn't count when you invite world class attackers to exploit structural weaknesses, then the defence didn't look so bad.
Of course the plan wasn't to have Hummels in one on ones against Mbappe. But when you're behind, you have to risk something. And Pogba and Mbappe are more or less the least combination of players you want to face under such circumstances. The game took a perfect turn for France with the own goal, like it or not, and it played into their cards. Obviously they're going to create chances on the counter over 70 minutes waiting for counters while the opponent has to push forward. The game would've looked completely different if the first goal didn't happen. And yes, it makes a difference if a goal or respectively a chance came from an easy mistake or from a world class pass that maybe 5 or 6 players in the world play on a good day. It makes no sense to ignore that Pogba and Mbappe simply had brillant days.
I think it is looking for the fly in the soup to pick Kroos out in those goals. Yes, he could've been in a better position but that's always true when you concede and there's no team that allows no chances. So far Kroos has done a very good job, if you ask me, and we're looking much more stable in this formation than I expected.
Pirlo played with Gattuso for milan and italy in his prime before age meant he needed two of those
And he was a much better defensive player than Kroos in the first place, in deeper areas
Oh yes, I was completely focused on the old version of Pirlo, playing for Juventus, as I feel like that's the most suitable comparison for Kroos. Probably should have made that clear in my initial post.
Kroos can only kick a corner nothing more hes shite.
If it were so,that game should have gone differently, as we didn't bother offering any physicality at all, just pure creative artistry.
That's not what we have been discussing, this is shifting the goalposts right here again
Subbing Goretzka for injured Muller might help our midfield become more solid at the expense of attack though
This will be the third tournament sacrificed on the altar of Turbotoni. Impressive
Surely they’re going to come back in this match? Two group stage exits in a row is unthinkable for Germany.
Would be an ignominious end for a word cup winning coach. Can see it happening, they look deflated. Something has to change during half time.
They will.
4th in the group
Priceless. Exhilarating.
Priceless. Exhilarating.
I think we should rename 'Die Mannschaft' to 'Flankreich'
I bet the score in the next 10 mins. Been bloody exciting whatever the result.
We should just call them Bayern. Because the rest of the Manshaft is random, irrelevant and interchangeable
ro16 against England
step 1: go behind, because Turbotoni doesn't feel like closing down his opponent
step 2: play 500 crosses
step 3: hope for random goals
looking forward to it.
feck Löw, feck Kroos, cnuts
step 1: go behind, because Turbotoni doesn't feel like closing down his opponent
step 2: play 500 crosses
step 3: hope for random goals
looking forward to it.
feck Löw, feck Kroos, cnuts
Can't get rid of Low soon enough.
Sane is in terrible form, looks devoid of any confidence. Musiala while only being 18 would be a far better option than him.
Can’t wait for the match next week.
Nah man it should be 'Die Press Resistant Ubermensch'
Such an embarrassing performance. Trying to waste time against Hungary in our own home ground. Pathetic all round.
Sane should never play another minute this tournament, can't remember a worse performance from German player recently. The fact that Low kept him on for 90 minutes was enough reason to fire him.
But I guess you'll still defend this performance given how much possession we held and how press resistant we were with Kroos and Gundogan right?
Feck Low and feck this team.
Germany will raise their game. No chance they will be this poor.
Gundogan, Hummels and Sane were atrocious. Gnabry, Gosen invisible. Neuer shaky. Kimmich erratic, Kroos his usual middling self and the rest just okay. They'll go far no doubt.
Kroos with 92% pass completion #masterclass#leader
Die Mannschaft needs more inspirational leaders like him.
How many players are there in the history of football that have a pass completion rate of above 90%? If we had 11 Kroos' we'd never lose the ball.
Someone tell Löw, if you never lose the ball it doesn't matter that if you move like a 50 year old. The others just need to raise their game to Toni's standard.
Germany to beat England on pen I guess
No, I think we should've had 90% possession in this match instead of playing head through wall
How did the Hungarians played? They looked a resilient team during the tournament. And more importantly, how did Germany played?
Hungary had one very well executed attack, facilitated by Kroos passivity, as is custom for die Mannschaft, and one courageous reaction, helped by dodgy defending / a Neuer miscalculation. Germany had the ball for basically the rest of the match, but with the wings soundly covered, Hungary defending for their lives and no idea among die Mannschaft how to create danger aside from spaming crosses Moyes style the game was a bit dull for large parts. The first goal was a mistake from Gulacsi, the second was throw caution to the wind -> pack the box -> get a deflection your way.
This is the dominant analytical question: