Germany - Euro 2021 discussion

[hasanejaz88]

Three teams qualify. That's a 75% chance to qualify from the group. That's a pretty low bar as far as achievements go.

Yea that's true. It was more about qualifying coming 2nd rather than third, because of the win against Portugal.

That being said, I didn't know beforehand that all our group games would be at home so winning 1 out of 3 is actually bad. Expectations were pretty low before this tournament though

 

[Poltophagy]

Next time I will add white text, just for you.

Maybe the other guy should so you don't respond sarcastically when it is not called for.

 

[Zehner]

True. "What made Löw doubt himself after 2018" is one of the great questions of our time, that we will never be able to answer. All he needed to do was go on like he did before.

So you think it was a good idea to switch from idolizing Pep Guardiola to idolozing Niko Kovac? Interesting.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Why don’t they start Gnabry & Gundogan?

 

[Wayne's World]

If Hansi Flick was in charge of Germany yesterday they would have won. Far too predictable on the ball and what they were trying to do

Dominated the second half but didn't really have a purpose going forwards

 

[dbs235]

Why don’t they start Gnabry & Gundogan?

I was lot more confident when I saw Gnabry wasn't playing. A front 3 of Gnabry, Havertz and Sane would have been terrifying.

 

[do.ob]

So you think it was a good idea to switch from idolizing Pep Guardiola to idolozing Niko Kovac? Interesting.

No, I think he should have stepped down or be sacked after it became clear in 2018, at the latest, that he couldn't find a balanced implementation of his idea, with just a couple of very highly rated players in place of the all time greats who carried him before, but had retired since. The shit show of the past couple of years didn't happen, because the evil public meddled in his business, it happened, because he kept flip flopping between ideas, because he had no idea how to shape die Mannschaft into a cohesive force.
Pressure didn't just magically appear out of thin air, it came about because die Mannschaft was a mess already.

 

[Zehner]

No, I think he should have stepped down or be sacked after it became clear in 2018, at the latest, that he couldn't find a balanced implementation of his idea, with just a couple of very highly rated players in place of the all time greats who carried him before, but had retired since. The shit show of the past couple of years didn't happen, because the evil public meddled in his business, it happened, because he kept flip flopping between ideas, because he had no idea how to shape die Mannschaft into a cohesive force.
Pressure didn't just magically appear out of thin air, it came about because die Mannschaft was a mess already.

Yes, but he didn't. So I'm pointing out what I think his mistakes were. Löw was a lame duck ever since the last WC and just did what he felt would appease the public. Hence the flip flopping between ideas and the lifeless playing "concept" that we saw at this EC.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Yes, but he didn't. So I'm pointing out what I think his mistakes were. Löw was a lame duck ever since the last WC and just did what he felt would appease the public. Hence the flip flopping between ideas and the lifeless playing "concept" that we saw at this EC.

So you're saying he was desperate to appease the public that didn't even want him there? I'm sure he must have wondered to himself why no one liked him then.

Regarding his sacking, I can understand why he wasn't sacked after the 2018 world cup given his service previously, but there was no excuse to not sack him after the Nations League embarrassment where we would've been relegated had UEFA not changed the rules.

 

[Zehner]

So you're saying he was desperate to appease the public that didn't even want him there? I'm sure he must have wondered to himself why no one liked him then.

Regarding his sacking, I can understand why he wasn't sacked after the 2018 world cup given his service previously, but there was no excuse to not sack him after the Nations League embarrassment where we would've been relegated had UEFA not changed the rules.

Yes, absolutely. He clung to the job as if his life depended on it. In 2018, Germany and Spain as the representatives of possession football had exited the WC very early, Niko Kovac had just made the German cup final two times in a row with an underdog team playing a very aggressive and vertical style, having 23% possession in the final win against Bayern 2018. He was then appointed Bayern head coach and said stuff like "possession football is dead" and the new world champion also played a rather negative and vertical brand of football. The public questioned Löw's play style and he gave in. After 2018, his position was far too weak to even continue, regardless of his actual football decisions. He went from being an idealist to being an opportunist and always did what he thought would propitiate the public opinion. He started a rebuild with new faces to create the image that real change was happening, he adapted a more vertical playing style without having the players for it and in the end went back on his decision to exclude Müller and Hummels from the squad because the public pressure was becoming too big.

IMO a coach shouldn't behave that way. Whether or not he's right, he has to stick to his principles and do what he thinks is best. But Löw didn't gave the impression that he even had such principles any longer, his principle was to keep his job and everything else was negotiable. He would never have made an unpopular decision even if he thought it was right. And the result is the trainwreck of a system that we played at this EC which was neither fish nor fowl. A bad compromise between too many things.

 

[do.ob]

Yes, absolutely. He clung to the job as if his life depended on it. In 2018, Germany and Spain as the representatives of possession football had exited the WC very early, Niko Kovac had just made the German cup final two times in a row with an underdog team playing a very aggressive and vertical style, having 23% possession in the final win against Bayern 2018. He was then appointed Bayern head coach and said stuff like "possession football is dead" and the new world champion also played a rather negative and vertical brand of football. The public questioned Löw's play style and he gave in. After 2018, his position was far too weak to even continue, regardless of his actual football decisions. He went from being an idealist to being an opportunist and always did what he thought would propitiate the public opinion. He started a rebuild with new faces to create the image that real change was happening, he adapted a more vertical playing style without having the players for it and in the end went back on his decision to exclude Müller and Hummels from the squad because the public pressure was becoming too big.

IMO a coach shouldn't behave that way. Whether or not he's right, he has to stick to his principles and do what he thinks is best. But Löw didn't gave the impression that he even had such principles any longer, his principle was to keep his job and everything else was negotiable. He would never have made an unpopular decision even if he thought it was right. And the result is the trainwreck of a system that we played at this EC which was neither fish nor fowl. A bad compromise between too many things.

You're flipping around the causality. Löw had already used more direct football at the 2017 confed cup, this wasn't something he just came up with after the 2018 WC. And to be frank it's ridiculous to suggest that public narratives had more influence on Löw's attempted stylistic adjustment than the fact that his previous approach brought terrible defeats upon him. Löw being Löw he actually kept going down the same path initially after the world cup (believe it or not despite esteemed top coach Niko Kovac proclaiming possession football dead!), it was only after getting dunked on by the Dutch in the NL, that he switched formations and started benching Müller.

Die Mannschaft has been so dysfunctional at both ends of the pitch for two tournaments now, that there is no point in looking for the one grave mistake Löw might have made or for the one outside influence that supposedly made a difference. Key players of his have retired, football has kept on evolving and that confronted him with a new reality. There is more than enough proof now, that he was completely out of his depth when trying to adjust to it.

 

[2ndTouch]

I was lot more confident when I saw Gnabry wasn't playing. A front 3 of Gnabry, Havertz and Sane would have been terrifying.

Gnabry and Sane have been out of form for quite a while now. In case of Gnabry you could see it yourself in yesterdays game. He was invisible.

 

[Piratesoup]

I was lot more confident when I saw Gnabry wasn't playing. A front 3 of Gnabry, Havertz and Sane would have been terrifying.

Sané is a shell of his former self, he was completely useless in the last few weeks and months. It would've been a travesty to field him in the starting 11.

 

[Rajiztar]

Sané is a shell of his former self, he was completely useless in the last few weeks and months. It would've been a travesty to field him in the starting 11.

Low could have changed bit earlier but should have kept werner. After Werner went out they totally lost the shape and england pushed up a bit. The run behind danger totally lost and england pushed up. I knew Werner couldn't do much but once he went England pushed up fullbacks changed the dynamics totally in my opinion.

 

[Tony247]

Germany are in big trouble if this is their young and best talent pool. Going to take about 4-6 years to rebuild the complete team.

 

[GhastlyHun]

Germany are in big trouble if this is their young and best talent pool. Going to take about 4-6 years to rebuild the complete team.

Bullshit. Apart from the fact that most if not all of our players are better than what Löw's dysfunctional tactics and lineups let it appear, we also just won the u21 euros again.

 

[Tony247]

Bullshit. Apart from the fact that most if not all of our players are better than what Löw's dysfunctional tactics and lineups let it appear, we also just won the u21 euros again.

If you want a proof of talent despite bizzare tactics by the coach then England is the example. English team is comfortably wininng the matches despite some over cautious defensive tactics by Southgate. If German team has real talent then the team should shine despite the coaching malfunction. It hasn't this year, it didn't in last WC. You can put the blame on coach only this much. This german generation is average at best, and I am being generous.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Why don’t they start Gnabry & Gundogan?

Gundogan was injured. The swelling on his head hadn’t receded enough to risk him

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Bullshit. Apart from the fact that most if not all of our players are better than what Löw's dysfunctional tactics and lineups let it appear, we also just won the u21 euros again.

This, unlike England the Germans have never stagnated that much. Germany will rebuild and come back stronger.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Bullshit. Apart from the fact that most if not all of our players are better than what Löw's dysfunctional tactics and lineups let it appear, we also just won the u21 euros again.

I'm more pessimistic. We won the Euro U-21 in 2017 as well (with a second string squad no less), how many of them are in consideration for the national team now? Meyer can't get a game for Koln after failing at Crystal Palace, Stark isn't a confirmed starter for Berlin, Kempf is still at Stuttgard and doesn't look to be moving to a bigger club, Weiser can't get a game at Leverkusen, Toijlan is playing in a mid table team in Italy, Max Phillip failed at Dortmund (though did well at Wolfsburg this season). Really though Kempf and Stark could've been key players at that time but they haven't developed.

Only Gnabry has become a key player for the national team and at a big club team from that squad.

For this squad, again I can't see any stand out talents other than Wirtz. Baku, Berisha and Nmecha look talented (not including Maier because he's going down the Meyer route, great at U-21 level but failing at club level already) but again not equal to that great 2009 batch we had.

 

[Tony247]

This, unlike England the Germans have never stagnated that much. Germany will rebuild and come back stronger.

I hope so, I wish so, I like them very much. But this German team is rock bottom I have seen in last 40 years.

By mid 2000' they were struggling. Yet they managed to reach semi finals of 2006 WC. It was the display of real resilient german talent. All superstars were either retired or in twilight of their career. Newspapers had articles of end of German era. Then they rebuilt quickly under Low from 2006 and by 2010 they had a real talented squad. But again note that in 2006 despite a relatively underwhelming squad they reached the semi. This team? This team is absolute rock bottom compare to 2006. And this team has been shit since 2018. Three years already passed and not a sign of emerging talents like Ozil, Lahm, Boateng, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, Muller, Neuer. These players started knocking the door since 2006. Which of the current young germans you can put finger on and say yes he will carry that legacy? Absolutely none.

Tough times ahead for die mannschaft.

 

[Tony247]

For me it was really odd to watch Germany without a target man. Voller, bierhoff, klose....to Werner. What a shamble. This werner chap would not have found a place in 2006 squad.

 

[Adisa]

Hansi Flick has a massive job of meeting expectations.
The talent level is just not the same as the last decade.

 

[Poltophagy]

I hope so, I wish so, I like them very much. But this German team is rock bottom I have seen in last 40 years.

By mid 2000' they were struggling. Yet they managed to reach semi finals of 2006 WC. It was the display of real resilient german talent. All superstars were either retired or in twilight of their career. Newspapers had articles of end of German era. Then they rebuilt quickly under Low from 2006 and by 2010 they had a real talented squad. But again note that in 2006 despite a relatively underwhelming squad they reached the semi. This team? This team is absolute rock bottom compare to 2006. And this team has been shit since 2018. Three years already passed and not a sign of emerging talents like Ozil, Lahm, Boateng, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, Muller, Neuer. These players started knocking the door since 2006. Which of the current young germans you can put finger on and say yes he will carry that legacy? Absolutely none.

Tough times ahead for die mannschaft.

Unless something fundamental has changed 80 million Germans will continue to produce footballers.

I remember this same song and dance before Euro 2000. Germany didn't have good enough players, there was no "captain" like Matthaus, Beckenbauer. They went out in the groups, reached a WC final with a piss easy draw, then went out in the groups again in 2004, failing to beat mighty Latvia.

Where was the mighty talent coming through in those years? There was only Ballack.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

For me it was really odd to watch Germany without a target man. Voller, bierhoff, klose....to Werner. What a shamble. This werner chap would not have found a place in 2006 squad.

They have a couple coming through I believe. The Sky Germany reporter mentioned the names but I can’t remember them

 

[ForEverEleven]

It´s laughable to say the current squad is bad or not talented enough. Look at the players individually. We can nearly field a starting lineup consisting of either (current) CL winners or WC winners. Neuer, Kimmich, Hummels, Rüdiger, Kroos, Goretzka, Müller, Gnabry, Musiala, Havertz, Werner. Don´t act like these players aren´t good enough or what not. They were integral parts of CL-winning teams, they have proven their quality at club level. Even guys like Gündogan or Gosens had phenomenal seasons. Löws "tactics" let the team down, he hasn´t installed a cohesive system after the 2018 disaster and got his full squad together way too late. The last friendly before the Euros against Latvia was the first time his starting eleven for the whole tournament ever played together.

As mentioned our U21 just won the Euros, Baku, Wirtz, Dorsch, Nmecha, Berisha, Adeyemi, Schlotterbeck are hopeful talents and I´m particularly invested in David Raum who is joining Hoffenheim this summer and has the potential to fill in the LB position in the national team. Germany will have great players in the next few years, the question is just if Flick can form a great team out of them.

 

[Zehner]

It´s laughable to say the current squad is bad or not talented enough. Look at the players individually. We can nearly field a starting lineup consisting of either (current) CL winners or WC winners. Neuer, Kimmich, Hummels, Rüdiger, Kroos, Goretzka, Müller, Gnabry, Musiala, Havertz, Werner. Don´t act like these players aren´t good enough or what not. They were integral parts of CL-winning teams, they have proven their quality at club level. Even guys like Gündogan or Gosens had phenomenal seasons. Löws "tactics" let the team down, he hasn´t installed a cohesive system after the 2018 disaster and got his full squad together way too late. The last friendly before the Euros against Latvia was the first time his starting eleven for the whole tournament ever played together.

As mentioned our U21 just won the Euros, Baku, Wirtz, Dorsch, Nmecha, Berisha, Adeyemi, Schlotterbeck are hopeful talents and I´m particularly invested in David Raum who is joining Hoffenheim this summer and has the potential to fill in the LB position in the national team. Germany will have great players in the next few years, the question is just if Flick can form a great team out of them.

On point. There was no system, no attacking patterns, nothing. We only looked good in attack against Portugal when Santos weirdly didn't make any adaptions in reaction to Germany having superiority on the wings all the time. But when teams had the spaces for Kimmich and Gosens covered, we had no plan whatsoever. And the 3-4-3 was a terrible fit for our squad, too.