Bayern obviously have an amazing team, but even their brilliance in Europe is aided by the lack of competition domestically. In England, resting players at the weekend so you can field a rested best XI in the CL can easily lead to defeat. And the margins between the top three are so fine that it can mean the difference between being champions or not. Bayern can (a) afford to drop points domestically because their rivals are so inconsistent, and (b) play weakened teams in the league with much less risk of them losing. The additional strain the competitive PL puts on squads, in terms of rotation necessity and injury, is vastly under appreciated. If Bayern moved to the PL now, with their current squad they would struggle to be competitive for both the title and the CL at the same time. They'd need a bigger squad with more depth in quality.
German football is turd
- Thread starter TwoSheds
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As posted above, they would easily get 50-100m more per year just due to the better TV deal, they could afford more squad depth.
This thread made me wonder why I/we watch football. I mean, the main criticism of the Bundesliga is that Bayern are so far ahead that it's not competitive. If watching teams win trophies is your reason for watching football, that's a valid criticism. But yesterday I watched Köln beat Wolfsburg, and I enjoyed watching it for other reasons closer to why I watch football in general: entertainment, athleticism, beautifully worked goals, passages of play, last-ditch saves and defensive plays, counterattacks leading to goals, drama, etc. I honestly don't focus too much on the relative level of a league. I watch MLS, Bundesliga, La Liga, as well as the Prem, and I find I can enjoy games in all of them regardless of the comparative levels of the leagues, as long as they fulfil those other criteria I mentioned. And it's all relative. So, yes, the thread title is childish, even though it's a no-brainer to claim that few if any major leagues are as competitive as the English Premier League. But Bundesliga isn't "turd," not at all.
One: this argument is bullshit. Plain and simple. Liverpool had little trouble picking up 97 points in the PL while winning the CL with a short squad. City's yearly failures in the competition have little to do with the PL wearing them down. The argument has been and continues to be disproven, again and again. People need to stop using it.
PS: I'm sorry, have you had a look at Bayern's squad? Kimmich, Goretzka, Sabitzer, Tolisso, Gnabry, Sane, Coman, Musiala, Muller, Lewandowski? They're only light on defence, really. You know, the area where you want the least amount of rotation possible
First Bayern doesn't play weakened teams for Bundesliga matches. That is just a myth.
Second many argue that Bayern being so dominant in the Bundesliga backfires in the CL because Bayern is missing the challenge and close games in their domestic league.
Thus they will crumble when playing the European to teams. Same is actually said about PSG.
I personally think that's bollocks. Manchester City the most dominant team of the EPL over the last 5 years regularly bottles the CL knock out matches.
I think that narrative existed primarily during Pep's time in Munich. He did win the league quite early and then did really play a weakened team for the last games in the league and went out of the CL - for these occasions you can make that point. It hasn't been true in the same way for the last seasons, as Bayern never won so early again as under Pep - Bayern won the CL under Flick, who had to save a season and come back from behind in the league (was it 5th place when he took over?), so exactly in a year where they had to go with full force until the end.
So I don't believe it is bollocks, but I do believe it is more of a Pep issue than a Bayern issue.
I fully agree. When I watch football I want to see entertaining and interesting games. The obvious issue with Bayern is that they usually win, so in that way their games can be boring. For me it comes down to style of play from teams whether I have fun watching them or not.
Köln is a great example - their setup and style is as attacking as Bayerns, but their players are far worse, so they simply make much more mistakes and have to take higher risks. You can always be sure to see an entertaining and unpredictable game, they may be picked off on the counter, they may thrash their opponent or most likely both happens and you see a result like that 3-2 yesterday.
Sad thing is how many teams don't want to have possession, but are happy to focus on their defense. Attacking teams are rare (throughout all leagues) except the absolute top teams, and I think that's a bit sad.
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Yeah, I don't get that either. It's boring for people that only check league standings and are disappointed that there is no drama when they check after every round of matches what happened at the top (spoiler: it's stil Bayern). But individual games aren't boring to watch, and there is plenty of movement below the top - there is no established top 6, for example (outside Bayern and Dortmund). I don't know why people that don't particularly care who wins or loses in the Bundesliga would find it turd.
You only have to look at the F1 at the weekend to understand how competitiveness enhances the appeal of the sport, and adds great drama to individual race. Football is no different. You can still enjoy watching a match, but ultimately watching Bayern has no pay off. There's no drama. You already know the ending. Not difficult to understand why people would find that boring.
Watch any league game not involving Bayern or Fürth and you can't predict the outcome reliably. There is a lot of competitiveness in most league games this season, I think that's Cheimoon's point, that it stops being boring when you stop only looking at Bayern's matches.
Yeah, that's it. I mean, in the EPL, if you watch CIty, Chelsea, or Liverpool this season (when they're not playing each other), chances are also that they're going to win. I mean, in recent years, the EPL's top teams have had very few losses or draws - and even some of those were one-sided matches that they really should have won but somehow didn't. That's not necessarily fun for a neutral either. (Although even then you could enjoy the top football on display from the winning side.) Same in the Bundesliga if you watch any match by teams other than Bayern (except against other top teams) and relegation fodder - although even Bayern has actually been struggling against a fair few lower-placed opponents this season.
I agree with the tv money as I seen when Leeds where in the championship the season they came up they were on tv all the time and got more money than Bayern.
While the tv money is positive you forget Bayern take the best players in the league. Leipzig finished 2nd and they can easily take there players but if they were in the PL and City finished 2nd it wouldn’t happen.
Teams getting less tv money in Germany helps Bayern aswell in some instances
This argument is total bullshit.
Could you imagine how much any other league would be laughed at if the 4th place team took till just before Christmas to get a positive GD and got smashed a combined 11-0 vs the top three?
That's exactly the problem.with the Bundesliga having only one true top team: everyone else is subtop and below and hence fair game for transfers. Dortmund is line Spurs - their best players may leave for City. You won't see that with Chelsea. But so in the Bundesliga there is no Chelsea on equal status with Bayern's; the next club is immediately a Spurs.
I think what a lot of people forget is before 2013 Bayern never done more than three in a row and even that was only twice. They may have been the dominant side all in all but they always failed to win a title with relative frequency.
Their present day run has happened because they're a very well run club that don't stand still, they have been very proactive in signing players to keep refreshed and most crucially sack managers (Kovac and Ancelotti) when the run is in anything slightly resembling peril.
I think they deserve more credit than they get for this, on paper it should be a lot easier for PSG but they've managed to balls it up twice in the last five years.
If a peak Ronaldo or Messi had ever signed for Bayern, they would have been pushing 50 goals a year bare minimum in the Bundesliga. And that's just league goals.
The high defensive lines would be scorned even in League One never mind the Prem. It's an attackers' league all day long and I seriously doubt Haaland would be nearly as profilic when he's constantly being put in one-on-one, or defenders are going walkabout past the half-way line and leaving space in behind.
Mame Biram Diouf is quite a good way of illustrating the difference. He struggled to score in the Prem and the Champo but he was fairly consistent in both the Bundesliga and in the Süper Lig of Turkey and had respectable scoring records in both.
In the last few years, Ligue 1 has nosed ahead of it for me. The Bundesliga is more like a deluxe version of the Eredivisie.
The high defensive lines would be scorned even in League One never mind the Prem. It's an attackers' league all day long and I seriously doubt Haaland would be nearly as profilic when he's constantly being put in one-on-one, or defenders are going walkabout past the half-way line and leaving space in behind.
Mame Biram Diouf is quite a good way of illustrating the difference. He struggled to score in the Prem and the Champo but he was fairly consistent in both the Bundesliga and in the Süper Lig of Turkey and had respectable scoring records in both.
In the last few years, Ligue 1 has nosed ahead of it for me. The Bundesliga is more like a deluxe version of the Eredivisie.
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If that style is so easy to beat, how do you explain the amount of teams in the PL employing coaches who brought this style from the Bundesliga to their PL teams, or are currently working on it? (Klopp, Pep, Tuchel, Hasenhüttl, Rangnick)
I've never really disliked Bayern (maybe if I lived in Germany and / or the Bundesliga was the main league that I followed I would), given how exceptionally well they are run, i.e. making profits year after after year (is it something like 28 or 29 years in a row now or was that streak snapped by COVID?), short and long term debts that are less than 5% of the their revenue, a relatively low wage bill / revenue ratio especially compared to most other clubs in major European leagues, treating their fans to such cheap ticket prices etc. Also it's not like they've monopolised Bundesliga TV money from what I can see, with the distribution between Bundesliga clubs still significantly more 'even' than that between La Liga clubs for example. I have far more respect for them than for Real, Barcelona, Juve etc. who have engaged in numerous dodgy dealings over the years and have benefitted from numerous other advantages.
However it is a big shame that in the league based in the wealthiest and second most populous country in Europe, they haven’t faced more of a sustained challenge from other clubs in modern times.
As someone who follows the Bundesliga casually these days (I used to watch it more regularly in the early part of the last decade, coinciding with when Klopp was in charge at Dortmund), I've always thought that Hamburg (not even a Bundesliga club since 2018), have been major underachievers in German football in modern times, especially considering that they are from such a large, wealthy city. They have a rich history domestically and in Europe in the past, and it's big shame that they failed challenge Bayern at least a little bit in modern times. In the years leading up the relegation, I remember their annual maulings away to Bayern (losing games 9-2, 8-0, 6-0 etc.)., but then again Dortmund have been routinely destroyed in those games in recent seasons as well.
However it is a big shame that in the league based in the wealthiest and second most populous country in Europe, they haven’t faced more of a sustained challenge from other clubs in modern times.
As someone who follows the Bundesliga casually these days (I used to watch it more regularly in the early part of the last decade, coinciding with when Klopp was in charge at Dortmund), I've always thought that Hamburg (not even a Bundesliga club since 2018), have been major underachievers in German football in modern times, especially considering that they are from such a large, wealthy city. They have a rich history domestically and in Europe in the past, and it's big shame that they failed challenge Bayern at least a little bit in modern times. In the years leading up the relegation, I remember their annual maulings away to Bayern (losing games 9-2, 8-0, 6-0 etc.)., but then again Dortmund have been routinely destroyed in those games in recent seasons as well.
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I remember Fergie often saying when we were Tops. (" you can only afford to lose 5 games in a season") . Now the bar has been raised by City and Liverpool. Chelsea are the only other team this season who can press these 2 and it will take some time before Manchester United are contenders again.
I find German football quite entertaining, in fact I prefer it to watching La Liga or Serie A. Of course Bayern make the league as such pretty boring, but there are a lot of really good games.
A shame really. Bundesliga has the potential to be the 2nd best in the world after the PL - individual matches are more pleasing to watch than La Liga or Serie A. Even a duopoly would have been almost okay. But the way it is, whatever be the reason, it is not going to catch the attention of the general audience worldwide.
That is an anecdote but not evidence.
But yes, Diouf once scored 12 goals in a Bundesliga season.
Demarai Gray has a way better scoring record in the PL than he had in the Bundesliga. Pukki is more prolific as well. What does that proof? Exactly: nothing
German football is doing great, only better outside of Germany than within.
I think a large portion of that has to do with the PL, or well United in that regard. If Bayern doesn't take a pick of their best players it's us or another PL team. It's the harsh reality for any Bundesliga club that they don't just face domestic competition.
If you ask me if 50+1 stays and the Bundesliga remains this far behind in TV money there is never going to be another team seriously challenging Bayern.
yes
Emmanuel Dennis is really profiting from the crazy high line in the PL as well. Only scored 1 Bundesliga goal for Cologne last season but in the "attackers league" in England he´s able to score goals for fun.
Well, but no one I Germany wants this 50+1 rule. I don't want to see my team owned by a private investor who is not even German and did not root for the team since years. PL clubs are profitable invests. No identity of the owner to the club. No heart no passion. How much do you currently pay for a ticket? Is it affordable for everyone in the UK if you go to a match with your family?
In Germany a cheap season ticket still costs around 150 to 200 euros.
You can get normal beer and bratwurst in the stands. Well, it's sad that bayern is a European power house and no other German club can contest. I would love if Dortmund, schalke, Frankfurt, HSV and other big clubs in Germany would not have fecked up in recent history that hard. But bringing privat investors and lose identity to get competition is not the right way.
No matter what people outside of Germany think. The Bundesliga is awesome! I love to go to random matches, fell the passion, enjoy the very good atmosphere and hopefully this is possible sooner or later again.
It's no disrespect to any other league but calling the Bundesliga shit is the worst thing you could do. The passion of people about their clubs is immense, no matter where or how good they play.
Emmanuel Dennis is playing in midfield for Watford
He's a baller and another example of how rubbish German football is that they couldn't get a tune out of him. Maybe he didn't gegenpress enough or maybe he's not much of a Taucher.
The 50+1 rule is great and so is the passion around the clubs. Proper parts of the community still which is awesome. Doesn't change the fact the football and competitiveness is turd though.
Bundesliga is fun to watch and the German teams also treat their fans right with costs. What kills the league really is that Bayern are able to pick off the cream of the crop of the other good teams players' and managers', thus cementing themselves at the top.
That said, I much prefer Bayern/Bundesliga to PSG/Ligue 1, Juve/Serie A (although got a soft spot for some of the other Italian clubs) or Real/Barca/La Liga.
That said, I much prefer Bayern/Bundesliga to PSG/Ligue 1, Juve/Serie A (although got a soft spot for some of the other Italian clubs) or Real/Barca/La Liga.
How is it proof that German football as whole is rubbish, when the team he played for was almost relegated? Yes, Köln were horrible last season, but what does that prove for the league?Emmanuel Dennis is playing in midfield for Watford
He's a baller and another example of how rubbish German football is that they couldn't get a tune out of him. Maybe he didn't gegenpress enough or maybe he's not much of a Taucher.
Additionally Dennis himself talked about having mental problems during the time, I am sure we would see much different performances from him if he had stayed in Köln and would be playing under their new manager.
Actually that narrative should die. Yes, Bayern did a lot of business with Leipzig in the summer and that fits, but overall BL clubs were more likely to sell top players to the PL than to Bayern in the last seasons.
I'm not in favor of the 50+1 rule to go away. I'm just tried to make a point that as long as finances in the Bundesliga stay as they are, Dortmund and all the other clubs won't be able to keep their best players, because some people suggested that they aren't even trying anymore. The truth is they might try all they want, but they are economically not able to and won't be as long as things remain as they are right now.
Did you check Haalands record in the CL
Hey now. He is not playing mighty Norwich or Burnley there!
He would bang them in for fun under Baumgart, I´m sure about that!
As I have already written, the gap to Bayern is too big. Maybe next year or the year after a totally unmotivated Bayern team won't be champion, but in the long run no one will come close.
Does that mean that I want to overturn 50+1 for 1.FC Köln? Never, and almost all fans of the club see it that way. Maybe it's just a terrible vision we have when we look at Manchester City or PSG, but as has already been said here, the football and the stadiums are great, and above all affordable.
For me, match days are football culture, meeting up with mates, having a few beers and chatting - that's how life should be. CL football is just another world for me (unless I can root for United) but I can live with that, it doesn't make my feelings for my home club any worse.
Rooting for BVB because they play in the CL ? That will never happen. ( there is always a fight with my wife who used to play for BVB ).
The Bundesliga is not crap, it's just not as competitive as the Premier League. We'll see how it looks financially in Spain or France or Italy in the future.
Does that mean that I want to overturn 50+1 for 1.FC Köln? Never, and almost all fans of the club see it that way. Maybe it's just a terrible vision we have when we look at Manchester City or PSG, but as has already been said here, the football and the stadiums are great, and above all affordable.
For me, match days are football culture, meeting up with mates, having a few beers and chatting - that's how life should be. CL football is just another world for me (unless I can root for United) but I can live with that, it doesn't make my feelings for my home club any worse.
Rooting for BVB because they play in the CL ? That will never happen. ( there is always a fight with my wife who used to play for BVB ).
The Bundesliga is not crap, it's just not as competitive as the Premier League. We'll see how it looks financially in Spain or France or Italy in the future.
It’s funny because Pep has turned the Premier League into a one team league but everyone acts like the English league is competitive. They could easily win the league 5/6 times in a row at this point. They have no striker and storming the league again.
Emmanuel Dennis is playing in midfield for Watford
He's a baller and another example of how rubbish German football is that they couldn't get a tune out of him. Maybe he didn't gegenpress enough or maybe he's not much of a Taucher.
Timo Werner is another example of how rubbish English football is as they couldn´t get a tune out of him.
Fair point.