The battle for survival in the Bundesliga is looking interesting. There's currently one point separating Mainz, Hertha, Bielefeld, and Köln. In the EPL there's 11 points separating the side second from bottom and the side ranked three places higher. In Ligue 1, its 7 points. The sides (Sheff U, Schalke, and Dijon) ranked last are almost certainly going down with the deficit looking insurmountable. Although, I'd be elated if Schalke managed to survive. Given its the case that the survival from Eintracht Frankfurt 1998/99 had a galvanising influence on me. Conversely, Huesca which are currently ranked last in La Liga are just 2 points off the nearest competitor, 4 points off safety and with 11 games to go, there's 8 points between Huesca (last) and Getafe (ranked 15th). Going back to German football, I'm really looking forward to see which German sides get automatically relegated, and which Bundesliga side will face the third placed side in 2.Bundesliga due to the relegation playoff. At the timing of this post, HSV (2nd), Fürth (3rd) and Kiel (4th) are tied with 46 points, and should Kiel win their game in hand they will displace Bochum, a side which are first in 2.Bundesliga.
German football is turd
- Thread starter TwoSheds
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Bayern fan twerking for Dortmund. No shame.
Then your rival club will advance.
Bundesliga is so unbelievable boring. Every year the same team wins and there isn‘t even an exciting rivalry between their fans. The german fans even cheer for their direct rivals.
Our resident Bundesliga Defence League members won't enjoy the latest Tifo video:
I mean, I did know that you don't watch the Bundesliga but I'd guessed you'd at least follow the German football thread in this forum considering how much you enjoy hating on the German users in this board. The video has already been posted there. Spoiler: We like it because it expresses exactly what we think. Don't bother processing that cognitive dissonance.
I like The Athletic's Tifo channel generally but in this particular video the maps they are showing are comically bad. The locations of the German cities on those maps are hilariously off. Leverkusen = Hambug, Frankfurt somwhere in the north, Wolfsburg in Mecklenburg, and Schalke and Dortmund are barely even relevant for derbies anymore.
Just wanted to point that out. To anyone who knows German geography, it's actually worth watching just for those maps alone. The rest is probably well researched.
Minute 2:50 in the video.
That mapI like The Athletic's Tifo channel generally but in this particular video the maps they are showing are comically bad. The locations of the German cities on those maps are hilariously off. Leverkusen = Hambug, Frankfurt somwhere in the north, Wolfsburg in Mecklenburg, and Schalke and Dortmund are barely even relevant for derbies anymore.
Just wanted to point that out. To anyone who knows German geography, it's actually worth watching just for those maps alone. The rest is probably well researched.
Minute 2:50 in the video.
It's like Bayern's growing radius is driving everyone into the North Sea, slowly
Also, Khan, the Titan
That map
It's like Bayern's growing radius is driving everyone into the North Sea, slowly
Also, Khan, the Titan
Yeah I saw that, too. It's a common mistake that people make. I'm sure he would've been a good Khan in the Mongolian steppe, too, with his fierce aura, so I look past that one mostly.
Why do they have an 'autumn championship' in Bundesliga? Makes a mockery of the league.
A wise man once said 'Herbstmeister ist wie Waldmeister' and i think that's beautiful
I enjoy watching the league but bayern being so much better than everyone else is boring.
Stuttgart had many chances to score tonight and just didn’t take them. Bayern were absolutely Clinical.
It's nothing official, it's just how the leader going into the winter break is called.
Bayern is much better than almost every club in Europe right now bar Liverpool City Psg and Madrid.
Barcelona Chelsea Spurs Arsenal all got tennis like scoreline from Bayern in recent seasons
Barcelona one of the greatest teams in Europe literally became a Bayern meme club based on the last decade results
Bayern just finished the CL group stages winning all 6 games and scoring an average of 4 goals per game
Not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you confirming that Bayern is indeed far ahead of the rest of the Bundesliga? And that the title race is hence indeed boring, since there is no race to speak of?
Lots of interesting stuff happening below that though. Numbers 3-16 are really quite close right now.
Manchester City got almost the same points in the EPL than Bayern in Bundesliga.
Just look at the score against Leeds, 5:0 like Bayern against Stuttgart. Still nobody is saying the EPL is turd. Bayern would also destroy most teams in the EPL bar Manchester City and Liverpool.
The only difference is that side of City you also have Liverpool and maybe Chelsea on a similar level. In Germany it's usually Dortmund but they are not consistent enough the last few years.
The rest of the league bar Bayern is complete crap this season.
Agreed. The potential is there, but Dortmund is far too dependent on Haaland, Leipzig couldn't go back to typical RB football with Marsch and Leverkusen is far too inconsistent.
I don't think it is crap overall, but it is quite even, so no one stands out. I agree however that most teams that should do well are crap, while some "small" teams are doing great.
Yes, but that's exaclty the point. Bayern are on the level of the EPL's top teams - but in the EPL there are various such top teams, while in the Bundesliga there's just one. Hence, the Bundesliga is and has been for years a one-horse race, and the EPL isn't.
Calling the entire league turd is a different thing (and a dumb thing) and has not been discussed on this page.
That happens a lot with teams that play Bayern. It's the same with most dominant teams. People blame it on the particular performance of whichever team they were playing but, in the long term, the bigger team nearly always wins.
You're right but at least in the PL you have two (maybe three) of those teams and it changes. If Pep, Klopp and Tuchel left at the end of this season, it could be completely different next season. Bayern seems to win no matter who's the manager or who's on the pitch. They'd have to actively try to destroy themselves.
That said, I think the PL has too much money too. I'd prefer massive restrictions on club spending and wage caps across all of Europe but that's a different story.
Yes, i absolutely agree with you there. I was taking aim at the crap performance of the German teams in CL and EL. Mainz, Freiburg, Köln are doing a great to fantastic job indeed.
You are norwegian, you don`t get to comment on pro football.
I’m convinced Bayern are the only team that can stop an English club winning the CL this season and as United aren’t in my thinking of those said English clubs, come on Bayern. They are so much better than everything in German football right now.
I think Chelsea can be stopped by others bit City and Liverpool look a step above everyone else aside from Bayern.
Dortmund are not consistent because they are a feeder club to the big boys in Europe, including Bayern themselves. That's why the comparison to EPL doesn't work. It's a one team league, with Bayern having free pick of the best players.
Best team on the globe for me
Yes a huge difference between the Premier League and the Bundesliga (or La Liga or Serie A), is that while there may be one or two horse races, the identity of those horses varies a lot more. For example during SAF's final season in charge in 2012/2013, there was a one horse race as Man Utd strolled to the title. The next season there was a 3 horse race between 3 completely different teams. Then two seasons later there was a two horse race between two completely different teams to that.
Bayern had already won at least 13 more league titles than any other German club (22 compared to 9 for the next team down the list), before their current streak of 9 titles in a row and counting started. If it was Schalke (of course currently 'languishing' in the Bundesliga 2) or Leverkusen winning 9 titles in a row and counting, that of course still wouldn't be great, but it would at least be noticeably better from a novelty perspective and in terms of 'historical competitiveness'.
Bayern had already won at least 13 more league titles than any other German club (22 compared to 9 for the next team down the list), before their current streak of 9 titles in a row and counting started. If it was Schalke (of course currently 'languishing' in the Bundesliga 2) or Leverkusen winning 9 titles in a row and counting, that of course still wouldn't be great, but it would at least be noticeably better from a novelty perspective and in terms of 'historical competitiveness'.
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Because Dortmund isn't interested in winning. They are more interested in signing prospects selling them for big money and making it to the top 4. Repeat process.
they’re not even trying to get out of that circle, I feel like. it seems they given up on that and are content with being #2/3
It's an embarrassing league quite frankly. A large part of what makes sport entertaining is the competitive nature of it. The German league isn't competitive, we already know who the winner is before a ball has been kicked. What's the point of that? It's boring.
I honestly think if United were in that position (winning 9 consecutive titles) I'd find it boring too. Despite being the dominant team for large parts of Ferguson's tenure, we always had at least one opponent that was at a level equal to us. That made winning the league so much more satisfying. The German league is like removing Liverpool, Chelsea and United from the Premier league; you'd have City winning 10 in a row with Spurs being their closest rival. Who'd want that?
I honestly think if United were in that position (winning 9 consecutive titles) I'd find it boring too. Despite being the dominant team for large parts of Ferguson's tenure, we always had at least one opponent that was at a level equal to us. That made winning the league so much more satisfying. The German league is like removing Liverpool, Chelsea and United from the Premier league; you'd have City winning 10 in a row with Spurs being their closest rival. Who'd want that?
Well, the league itself is quite entertaining. But I think you can say that about the leagues in Portugal or the Netherlands, too. What matters is competitiveness.
And that's where the Bundesliga has failed in recent years. This is most evident in the Euro League and, to a lesser extent, in the Champions League. After Bayern and Dortmund, there is a gap between them and Leipzig. Everything that comes after that is totally inconsistent.
Dortmund is a feeder club, there is no doubt about that. The business model is to buy highly talented players who are attracted to Dortmund because of its good reputation.
These players then stay for around three years and are sold on at a high profit. The only thing is that you can't make any long-term plans for these top-class players, you always have movement in the team. And in my opinion, it's harder to bring in a philosophy.
Leipzig lives from red bull power, of course. They get the best players from Salzburg because they are higher up in the pecking order. But they are also a feeder club, even more so than Dortmund.
Bayern is simply in a different league because they've worked for it over decades, they've built up the reputation and appeal they live on today and that brings players from other teams into the Bundesliga. There have always been teams that have broken into Bayern's sphere, but they have always lacked something in the overall package to be successful in the long term.
Dortmund is absolutely the closest to that, and I also believe that they have become more robust against short-term problems.
Everything further down the league has good seasons but no consistency because good players are immediately bought away. But that doesn't necessarily only apply to Bayern, but also to Dortmund, Leipzig, Wolfsburg... they are like a hoover.
Another big problem for the league are the traditional clubs that have slipped into the second division, some of them big names from the past that would give the league a much greater appeal, e.g. HSV, Schalke, Werder Bremen, Dynamo Dresden ( yes ) or a cult club like St. Pauli. Who wants to see Fürth, Augsburg, Bielefeld, Hoffenheim or Mainz internationally?
All in all, the league simply lacks the financial power and the worldwide reputation of the premier league or the linguistic connection from la liga to South America. Personally, I believe that the situation in the league will be cemented because the ship has sailed for the clubs further down the ladder in terms of money. (like for example for my hometown club cologne)
And that's where the Bundesliga has failed in recent years. This is most evident in the Euro League and, to a lesser extent, in the Champions League. After Bayern and Dortmund, there is a gap between them and Leipzig. Everything that comes after that is totally inconsistent.
Dortmund is a feeder club, there is no doubt about that. The business model is to buy highly talented players who are attracted to Dortmund because of its good reputation.
These players then stay for around three years and are sold on at a high profit. The only thing is that you can't make any long-term plans for these top-class players, you always have movement in the team. And in my opinion, it's harder to bring in a philosophy.
Leipzig lives from red bull power, of course. They get the best players from Salzburg because they are higher up in the pecking order. But they are also a feeder club, even more so than Dortmund.
Bayern is simply in a different league because they've worked for it over decades, they've built up the reputation and appeal they live on today and that brings players from other teams into the Bundesliga. There have always been teams that have broken into Bayern's sphere, but they have always lacked something in the overall package to be successful in the long term.
Dortmund is absolutely the closest to that, and I also believe that they have become more robust against short-term problems.
Everything further down the league has good seasons but no consistency because good players are immediately bought away. But that doesn't necessarily only apply to Bayern, but also to Dortmund, Leipzig, Wolfsburg... they are like a hoover.
Another big problem for the league are the traditional clubs that have slipped into the second division, some of them big names from the past that would give the league a much greater appeal, e.g. HSV, Schalke, Werder Bremen, Dynamo Dresden ( yes ) or a cult club like St. Pauli. Who wants to see Fürth, Augsburg, Bielefeld, Hoffenheim or Mainz internationally?
All in all, the league simply lacks the financial power and the worldwide reputation of the premier league or the linguistic connection from la liga to South America. Personally, I believe that the situation in the league will be cemented because the ship has sailed for the clubs further down the ladder in terms of money. (like for example for my hometown club cologne)
German football is best at Amateur level. Very competitive and played at a pretty high technical level. I love it. I really couldn't care less (note the "n't" there american friends) about the Bundesliga though. Yawn.
Barcelona smashed Bayern once or twice at their peak so it’s normal really.
Barcelona have been really poor against Bayern though it must be said. The 2013 tie was the most shocking that ended the era of the best team ever basically.
Barcelona went onto win the treble again with that great front 3 but they were never the same level as 2009-2012.
You are right here. The reason is the 50+1 rule, which makes buying a football club stale for billionaires or countries to buy football clubs in Germany. Nobody will invest hundreds of millions without having control over a club.
Whether this is a good or bad thing is surely debatable.
If England had the same rule (50+1) I'm sure the EPL would be pretty similar to the Bundesliga with Manchester United dominating like Bayern. Manchester City of Chelsea were just nobodies without the oil money.
It's a bit more complex than that - but this has been discussed to death in the proper German football thread, so let's not rehash that here.
This thread was made after we beat Leipzig 5-0 then they knocked us out.
The problem with German league to the PL is that while City have been dominant for a few years there is still teams that challenge every year or 2. Chelsea won it under Conte, Liverpool won it and also got 99 points in 2nd.
Now this season the top 3 took close but in Germany it’s always Bayern ahead without consist challengers.
Bayern are as good as City but the rest don’t challenge consistently with them. As I’ve said before if City and Bayern swapped leagues I would back Bayern to win the PL but it would be challenging every year yet City would also walk the German league.
It's a bit more complex than that - but this has been discussed to death in the proper German football thread, so let's not rehash that here.
You are right there more factors of course but the 50+1 rule is a major one.
Very likely. If Bayern played in EPL, they would have 100 Million more in TV money and most likely would have a bigger squad also.
The difference in TV money is another major reason why many EPL clubs are ahead. They have easily 50 to 100 million a year more to spend. With no fans allowed the TV money becomes even more important.