We are turd. Difference is we are aware.
German football is turd
- Thread starter TwoSheds
- Start date
So you got Neuer, Boateng, Müller, and Pavard I’m guessing? You’re forgetting Hernandez, Tolisso, and Javi Martinez. Coman missed out As he was injured. 7 still isn’t half a squad, I’ll give you that.
You’re judging Boateng by his time as a fullback at City. That was the same year as the South Africa World Cup. You must be joking surely?Since then he won the World Cup and 2 CLs while making it to the CL semis many more times. City did what exactly in the CL in the same time frame?
Müller is basically in his second prime and is getting more goal contributions across all competitions than ever before. He was also an integral part in his second tripple win last year.
Bayern’s CM combination of Kimmich and Goretzka, I don’t see Gündogan getting in there or in the OM spot ahead of Müller. De Bruyne is a top 10 player in the World but even then Müller is Bayern’s poster boy and has been amongst their most influential players in the last decade. If it wasn’t a Bavarian club I’d agree but Müller is the academy player poster boy as well as a leader on the pitch.
Sterling, Laporte, Dias are all debatable, they certainly wouldn’t “walk in easily”. I agree on Cancelo as Bayern’s weakest position is probably RB.
Okay, they do have a few more world cup winning players than I remembered but even at that, you have to agree with me that most of these players were on the fringes or simply less crucial in their respective World Cup-winning sides. With the notable exceptions of Neuer and Muller and to a lesser extent, Boateng. But even at that, we are talking about their strength this season, and these players are either past their best or not quite world-beaters. Martinez, for example, played only 20 minutes in the entirety of Spain's 2010 win and was left out of the last world cup squad so simply citing the presence of world cup winners is not valid as an argument of bayern's superiority.
Objectively, if you were to build a new team out of a man city and bayern combined 11, I doubt you would leave out any of the players I mentioned. No way Goretzka is better than Gundogan on current form for example.
Boateng was man of the match in the World Cup final of 2014 according to many media outlets, even though Schweinsteiger's performance is in people's memories. He was vital in that WC campaign.
Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...a-brazil-2014-worlds-cup-final-player-ratings
Bleacher Report:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...pressive-performances-in-world-cup-2014-final
YT compilation:
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...a-brazil-2014-worlds-cup-final-player-ratings
Bleacher Report:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...pressive-performances-in-world-cup-2014-final
YT compilation:
I doubt I really have to say anything about Neuer or Müller.
Hernandez and Pavard were starters for France in their winning World Cup campaign and also started in the final. You might remember Pavard's goal against Argentina perhaps.
So 5/7 players were integral parts of the starting 11s of their respective teams. Martinez and Tolisso have the experience of having won a World Cup. They're also not important parts of Bayern's first eleven now but as you know "success breeds success".
Gündogan against Goretzka is an interesting discussion. If the Euros happen this summer, then we shall see who gets picked ahead of whom. I wouldn't trade Goretzka for Gündogan in that Bayern team if I was their manager, simply because Goretzka gives that midfield a physical presence, while still being a great midfielder with the ball. Gündogan is still tidier on the ball, but this is his first real goal scoring season and he's been quite toothless for Germany over the years when it really mattered. Goretzka has recently won the sextuple as a starter for Bayern, with great performances throughout the CL season (for example against Barca). Gündogan has been great this season in the PL. It's definitely not a situation of "no way is X better than Y" when comparing the two players. It's a matter of what you'd want to complement that midfield.
Also regarding Gündogan's goalscoring nous that you might say puts him ahead:
For Germany Gündogan has scored an impressive 8 goals in 42 games from CM. Great return.
The 4 years younger Goretzka though is on 12 in 29 games from CM.
Overall Gündogan is on 67 senior career goals from CM or OM at age 30. Goretzka ist at 58 senior career goals from CM at age 26. He's got 4 years to get 9 more goals to equal Gündogan's record at the same age.
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Yeah I don't necessarily disagree with any of that. "Worldcup winner" isn't some eternal irrefutable badge of quality, but I just thought it's a bit funny to criticise that narrative and then go with the Man city reject narrative which is even more silly.
Also these combined 11 speculations are a bit pointless, because most of these players offer such different things in different systems. Is Gundogan better than Goretzka? Yeah probably, but not sure that swapping them would make either team better.
That none of the three teams in the competition, Leverkusen, Wolfsburger, Hoffenheim, managed to reach the round of last 16 of the EL really is an incredibly poor showing and frankly an embarrassment for the league.
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Wolfsberg didn’t even qualify. They were knocked out by a side that ended up finishing bottom of their group with only 3 points.
Fair enough.
Yes, it is questionable who has been the better player but at the moment Gundogan is simply class. His return is at a level even a striker would be proud of, and he does this while contributing in other areas of the pitch. I have to also admit to not watching that much of Goreztka.
Gündogan and Goretzka are hard to compare since they do different things and fill different roles. Both are very important to their team‘s specific setup.
I had hopes that Gündogan would come to Bayern since I had already become a fan when he was at Nürnberg. Unfortunately Pep was the bigger draw for him.
Ah yes, the local bookies. The ones who quote Man City as favorites to win the CL every single fecking year for the last decade.
Oh G-d this old chestnut about Thiago being Bayern's best midfielder
I'd have De Bryune and maybe Dias. Sterling, no. Gundogan vs Kimmich or Goretzka? Quite simply no. Cancelo, nope.
We'll see - Bayern will cream City if they meet. But somehow I think City will lose to Porto or something.
I'm sure you've watched enough games to form an opinion on that.
So you got Neuer, Boateng, Müller, and Pavard I’m guessing? You’re forgetting Hernandez, Tolisso, and Javi Martinez. Coman missed out As he was injured. 7 still isn’t half a squad, I’ll give you that.
You’re judging Boateng by his time as a fullback at City. That was the same year as the South Africa World Cup. You must be joking surely?
Müller is basically in his second prime and is getting more goal contributions across all competitions than ever before. He was also an integral part in his second tripple win last year.
Bayern’s CM combination of Kimmich and Goretzka, I don’t see Gündogan getting in there or in the OM spot ahead of Müller. De Bruyne is a top 10 player in the World but even then Müller is Bayern’s poster boy and has been amongst their most influential players in the last decade. If it wasn’t a Bavarian club I’d agree but Müller is the academy player poster boy as well as a leader on the pitch.
Sterling, Laporte, Dias are all debatable, they certainly wouldn’t “walk in easily”. I agree on Cancelo as Bayern’s weakest position is probably RB.
Yes. On Muller, he's the most underrated player in the word. He's not a "pretty" footballer, but is incredibly productive. I forgot hoe many goals he's scored in the World Cup, in CL finals, semifinals, quarterfinals, Pokal finals etc. If it's a big match I'd take Muller over everyone in City's squad.
RB is a problem for Bayern, but I really don't rate Cancelo as a good RB (and I've seen him since the days of Inter + Juve). He's good with the ball, but an average defender if not poor. For all his contributions upfront, he's bad positionally (see Shaw's goal at Etihad where Cancelo got beaten by a simple throw of the ball from Henderson).
Probably 15-20 matches a season in all comps for the last decade, a few more if you go back 3 decades.
I would say that overall football is a bit turd across the board. When you look at the teams in Europe, they just look very underwhelming.
You should watch more closely then.
It's almost as if having no social life, having to take a paycut, and having to play before empty stands every week for a year might be having an impact on performances.
Bayern Munich basically soak up the talent throughout the league (e.g. Lewandowski, Neuer) forcing everyone left to leave (e.g. Havertz, Werner). Germany and France basically have the same problem.
I thought about asking how exactly you think us signing Neuer and Lewandowski is connected to Wolfsburgs failure in this season's EL, but I'm not going to. Please don't tell me.
You should try not be a cockwomble
Just for knowin..Do Bayern fans take joy in their league wins anymore? From outside, it seems pretty boring, without even a single proper competitor.
In the CL this season by the quarters we might have 2 Bundesliga sides and 0 serie A side. Last year we had 2 Buli and 1 Serie A in quarters
Strange in the sense of honest?
Strange was only that the VAR dismissed the 2nd goal in 1st half for Milan.
No just strange.Strange in the sense of honest?
Strange was only that the VAR dismissed the 2nd goal in 1st half for Milan.
You support Koln, a completely nothing team having a jab at a team in a European competition.
Us nothing team supporters are allowed an opinion too
Apologies, I must have missed you intended to start a serious conversation with me.
This kind of simplification of actually a rather complex situation of reasons and dynamics to explain such things always amazes me.
Bayern dominate the league, yes, everybody knows that. But if you would actually have a look at what the Bayern transfers in the last decade were that elevated them to the current level, you will see that basically none of these is the reason for the decline/stagnation of many German clubs. If you want a simple reason for the current quality of football in german club football, have a look at the 50+1 rule and the financial power of said clubs compared to their respective counterparts in Italy, Spain and England. Funny enough, many on here are licking their fingers for Haaland and Sancho, completely ignoring how that would affect this club and not considering why this could happen anyway and how that would affect Dortmund in terms of football quality.
Of course - very strange attacking united in the Europa league was the pointUs nothing team supporters are allowed an opinion too
Yes, as much as I despise Bayern, they haven't poached rival players for a fair amount of time. The former victims like Dortmund or Leverkusen are much more at it nowadays. What's to criticize is Bayern's habit of trying to persuade players from other clubs to let their contract run out and get them on a free, though, effectively cutting those clubs off from the only way they can realistically make huge profits and level the playing field to a certain extent.
But you're right, the real issue is 50+1 and as long as that rule stands, German clubs won't be competitive internationally. I don't think many English fans know how extreme this is. I believe even the financially weakest EPL club has more financial prowess than any club in Germany outside the top 5. If you were to make a combined table of spending power, only Dortmund and Bayern would probably make the top 10.
This thread title is one of the most childish things I’ve ever seen on here. For a place that usually has a lot of sensible debate, this isn’t a good look.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the 50+1 rule prevent clubs from being able to be used as just a cash cow by the owners, like the potential is there for with English clubs? For example, a few years back when Kroenke was literally spending next to no money on Arsenal, while the club was still drawing in a lot of profits.
Doesn’t that rule serve to ensure the club remains a football focused entity, rather than a corporate one?
Well, there are two sides to this coin. There is overwhelming support from fans to keep 50+1 in place for the reason you stated. On the other hand it obviously holds German teams back internationally as Zehner said. Though it also stops Bundesliga teams from seriously challenging Bayern.
It depends on the way you see it. In a nutshell, 50+1 prevents investors from having authority over the club. They can never decide alone but are dependent on the approval of others. So in essence, they're allowed to finance the club but they can't decide how that money is spent. This constellation lead to some very weird stories like Kühne and the HSV.
So in a way, you're correct, this situation wouldn't be possible with 50+1. But it also makes German football clubs very unattractive to any sort of investment at all. However, I don't think an investor has to supply money to the club constantly. For Bundesliga clubs, I believe it's more about receiving funding that enables them to operate on a larger scale and close the gap. At some point, they again stand on their own feet, but as of now, they grow organically but slower than the competition. Both internationally as well as domestically (Bayern).
I think it's safe to say that 50+1 is not holding back Leverkusen internationally, since they are not adhering to it.
Very true. Plenty of German/Bundesliga players are hugely overrated and most of them struggle in other European leagues. I thought this phenomenon was restricted to my local fanbase but it clearly isn't.
No we're not but Leverkusen is a city with 160.000 inhabitants surrounded by city's with very popular clubs. I doubt Bayer's investment in us is highly profitable, they have other motives for this sponsorship. And still we are probably fourth or fifth highest in terms of budget. Imagine a club with the narketing potential of Schalke or Hamburg being backed and managed by an investor who knows what he's doing instead of incompetent and fraudulemt clowns like Tönnies.
So the problem is incompetency.
yep. childish stuff from both sides. But German football in terms of Europa League really is turd. Two semis since the beginning, that is underwelming to say the least.