German Football 23/24 |

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strongwalker said:
No player in the 2014 team was technically as good as Jamal with the exception of Thiago, who lacks speed in comparison and is a different type of player of course.
Sane Coman Davies Guerrero are technically as sound as Robben or Ribery were, but Ribery was a much more clever type of player and Robben had his absolute winner mentality.
what set the 2014 team also apart were Kroos, Lahm, Alaba and Martinez who had skillsets lacking in the current squad, but not primarily on the technical level. We call it Spielintelligenz.
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None of those have the technical ability that Ribery had. Musiala is the only player I would consider potentially close to Ribery. Ribery's close range dribbling was amazing.

I think the issue is tactics, we've seen this squad play much better under Flick. You could actually said he played with a worse team, on a technical basis, as Muller was the CAM and Lewandowski was ST. I don't think it's on the players necessarily.
 
strongwalker said:
No player in the 2014 team was technically as good as Jamal with the exception of Thiago, who lacks speed in comparison. Sane Coman Davies Guerrero are technically as sound as Robben or Ribery were, but Ribery was a much more clever type of player and Robben had his absolute winner mentality. But there also were Kroos, Lahm and Martinez who had skillets lacking in the current squad, but not primarily on the technical level. We call it Spielintelligenz.
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I just think the team's overall ability on the ball (including Spielverständnis) has clearly declined since then. Which doesn't mean some individual players aren't excellent. Disagree about the line on Coman/Davies vs. Robbery, though. (Also Guerreiro in that specific comparison, but I do think he's very neat in possession).
 
hasanejaz88 said:
None of those have the technical ability that Ribery had. Musiala is the only player I would consider potentially close to Ribery. Ribery's close range dribbling was amazing.

I think the issue is tactics, we've seen this squad play much better under Flick. You could actually said he played with a worse team, on a technical basis, as Muller was the CAM and Lewandowski was ST. I don't think it's on the players necessarily.
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2014 Mandzukic was the #9
 
Having to play a different back line and defensive midfield every match doesn't help either.
 
Scarecrow said:
I’m only a casual viewer, admittedly, but I am convinced Muller is twice the player Coman is, so why isn’t he ever starting anymore? I haven’t seen anything to suggest he can’t play together with Musiala. In fact, I think the latter is more useful in an inside wing role at this point, where he has more space to use his dribbling.
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Tuchel's agenda. For him speed is the most important factor for anybody but Kane - and I still think he is of the opinion that we can win anything with hero football. I do not see any mechanisms or trained running patterns. And we even cannot get Kane into the game as a real no. 9 like this. Sure, he functions as a midfielder to send the fast guys on counter - but before the first goals rarely has touches in the box.

Müller has more G+A either in the 2023 calendar year and in this season than Coman and Musiala - with a lot less match time and with coaches that do not back him and with physical problems. I always ask me how it would be if he would have a Flick as coach who values his abilities. He had physical problems last season over months with his hips and even probably with the aftermath of 3 times Covid (the problems started after Covid no. 3) but that is fine now - he does not miss any trainings or matches. If you look at the Bundesliga stats from Kicker he has not even lost really in his top speed - he now is even faster as Marco Reus who was a lot faster years ago.

Müller's match time this season is below that what he would need to get on the BIG-FIVE-Statspage on fbref - but he leads some categories on the per 90 minutes-stats page in the Bundesliga (less no. of total matches) - and if you would take his numbers he even would lead in Europe or be in the top 5 to 10 in categories like assists per 90, xA or xAG per 90 etc.

And about Robben vs the wingers today. Robben was far cleaner with his tactics and did not just have a fine dribbling but was a great passer that you really could put into the passing game, too. He had far less easy position losses as e.g. Sane.
 
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Blackwidow said:
Tuchel's agenda. For him speed is the most important factor for anybody but Kane - and I still think he is of the opinion that we can win anything with hero football. I do not see any mechanisms or trained running patterns. And we even cannot get Kane into the game as a real no. 9 like this. Sure, he functions as a midfielder to send the fast guys on counter - but before the first goals rarely has touches in the box.

Müller has more G+A either in the 2023 calendar year and in this season than Coman and Musiala - with a lot less match time and with coaches that do not back him and with physical problems. I always ask me how it would be if he would have a Flick as coach who values his abilities. He had physical problems last season over months with his hips and even probably with the aftermath of 3 times Covid (the problems started after Covid no. 3) but that is fine now - he does not miss any trainings or matches. If you look at the Bundesliga stats from Kicker he has not even lost really in his top speed - he now is even faster as Marco Reus who was a lot faster years ago.

Müller's match time this season is below that what he would need to get on the BIG-FIVE-Statspage on fbref - but he leads some categories on the per 90 minutes-stats page in the Bundesliga (less no. of total matches) - and if you would take his numbers he even would lead in Europe or be in the top 5 to 10 in categories like assists per 90, xA or xAG per 90 etc.

And about Robben vs the wingers today. Robben was far cleaner with his tactics and did not just have a fine dribbling but was a great passer that you really could put into the passing game, too. He had far less easy position losses as e.g. Sane.
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Thanks for the write up. I completely agree. I was so excited for the Kane and Muller combo and they barely play together. Tuchel’s been a bit of a letdown so far.

Robben was all that but an underrated finisher, as well. People focus on the cutback a lot and that’s great and all but it only serves to get him a yard of space. What he did with it was consistently whip it inside the far post. That’s the harder part.
 
Musiala needs to be moved on the wings or sold, his strides are too big to be playing in the middle of the field. He's stinking up the place most of the time and for some fckt up reason seems he is undroppable.
 
Stuttgart vs Leipzig is a proper top match today (winner will be 3rd), 4-2 after just 60 minutes and both going for it.
 
Acrobat7 said:
These injuries for Bayern are getting completely out of hand. Feck me
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I think that's what it looks like when you have to force a too thin squad through three competitions. The fact that Tuchel at times had only 15 players available is crazy.
 
Zehner said:
I think that's what it looks like when you have to force a too thin squad through three competitions. The fact that Tuchel at times had only 15 players available is crazy.
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Yep, absolutely. They messed up their deadline day in the summer (3 players they „almost“ signed…) and are now being hit hard with injuries. Gnabry is close to returning but Coman looked bad and I hope Pavlovic is okay.
 
I think that Leverkusen looked better against Augsburg than Bayern did despite needing a late goal to win.

Bayern continue to look underwhelming. Yeah, a lot of players missing, but the lineups being fielded are still very strong and should be playing better.

On a different note, what a game in Stuttgart :drool:

I feel that they are not getting as much attention as they should due to what Bayer are doing. They have no right being as good as they are. And this was without Guirassy - they were playing well last season and almost got relegated but it somehow all fell into place for them now.
 
Hound Dog said:
I think that Leverkusen looked better against Augsburg than Bayern did despite needing a late goal to win.

Bayern continue to look underwhelming. Yeah, a lot of players missing, but the lineups being fielded are still very strong and should be playing better.

On a different note, what a game in Stuttgart :drool:

I feel that they are not getting as much attention as they should due to what Bayer are doing. They have no right being as good as they are. And this was without Guirassy - they were playing well last season and almost got relegated but it somehow all fell into place for them now.
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Definitely. The impact Hoeneß had on that Stuttgart team is crazy. He saved them from relegation and now they're the third best team in the league ahead of Dortmund and Leipzig with more or less the same squad. And they aren't achieving it with underdog football and lucky punches like Union, Frankfurt or Freiburg, they dominate their opponents in the fashion of a top team.
 
Hound Dog said:
I think that Leverkusen looked better against Augsburg than Bayern did despite needing a late goal to win.

Bayern continue to look underwhelming. Yeah, a lot of players missing, but the lineups being fielded are still very strong and should be playing better.

On a different note, what a game in Stuttgart :drool:

I feel that they are not getting as much attention as they should due to what Bayer are doing. They have no right being as good as they are. And this was without Guirassy - they were playing well last season and almost got relegated but it somehow all fell into place for them now.
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Stuttgart were already really good in the second half of last season. Hoeness seems to be a really good coach with a clear idea. They simply underperformed under Labbadia (what a shock, I know) who should never ever be hired again by anyone.
 
Acrobat7 said:
Stuttgart were already really good in the second half of last season. Hoeness seems to be a really good coach with a clear idea. They simply underperformed under Labbadia (what a shock, I know) who should never ever be hired again by anyone.
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The infamous inventor of the term 'comfort zone' that's haunting us until today
 
Acrobat7 said:
Stuttgart were already really good in the second half of last season. Hoeness seems to be a really good coach with a clear idea. They simply underperformed under Labbadia (what a shock, I know) who should never ever be hired again by anyone.
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Yeah, that's what I said. They were playing well in the second half but were not really getting the results.
 
Zehner said:
Definitely. The impact Hoeneß had on that Stuttgart team is crazy. He saved them from relegation and now they're the third best team in the league ahead of Dortmund and Leipzig with more or less the same squad. And they aren't achieving it with underdog football and lucky punches like Union, Frankfurt or Freiburg, they dominate their opponents in the fashion of a top team.
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Stuttgart are doing well is one half of the truth, but the other half is that Dortmund and Leipzig are having bad seasons. I don't have to go into detail about Dortmund, with them loaning players from midtable teams and hiring what looks like their designated interim coach, because the one in charge was declared dead by the press around Christmas. And if Leipzig were a real club we would be reading quite a bit of negative stuff about them as well.

Good for them, good for the league, but I wouldn't call it a miracle just yet.
 
do.ob said:
Stuttgart are doing well is one half of the truth, but the other half is that Dortmund and Leipzig are having bad seasons. I don't have to go into detail about Dortmund, with them loaning players from midtable teams and hiring what looks like their designated interim coach, because the one in charge was declared dead by the press around Christmas. And if Leipzig were a real club we would be reading quite a bit of negative stuff about them as well.

Good for them, good for the league, but I wouldn't call it a miracle just yet.
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Obviously it is not „a miracle“, and no one termed it that way, but it is a big, traditional club playing attractive and successful football. That is a strong positive in my book no matter the circumstances of Dortmund and Leipzig sucking badly.
 
do.ob said:
Stuttgart are doing well is one half of the truth, but the other half is that Dortmund and Leipzig are having bad seasons. I don't have to go into detail about Dortmund, with them loaning players from midtable teams and hiring what looks like their designated interim coach, because the one in charge was declared dead by the press around Christmas. And if Leipzig were a real club we would be reading quite a bit of negative stuff about them as well.

Good for them, good for the league, but I wouldn't call it a miracle just yet.
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Stuttgart is on track to a 65+ point season and are even better in terms of xPts. And they're doing it playing a system which many people thought would only be playable with player quality only Bayern can afford. It is still early days but assuming they continue like this, it was one of the most impressive managerial displays in terms of "having a team punch above its weight" in the last 20 years
 
Zehner said:
Stuttgart is on track to a 65+ point season and are even better in terms of xPts. And they're doing it playing a system which many people thought would only be playable with player quality only Bayern can afford. It is still early days but assuming they continue like this, it was one of the most impressive managerial displays in terms of "having a team punch above its weight" in the last 20 years
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Always with the selective application of xG. If you want to go by xPts you should also look at last season, where they underperformed that stat to the tune of 14 points, even before Hoeneß took over and they had all that negative momentum.

Guirassy is probably having one of the all-time best minute/goal ratios and Undav is having a better ratio than Haaland, too and what do you know, they got one point more from their "Hinrunde" than Union Berlin last season.

So great for them, great for them, Hoeneß will be on the short list for coach of the season and on the radar of clubs like Dortmund, Leipzig or Leverkusen, but I think we should put this into perspective. Already talking like they'll finish the season in top four is quiet a big assumption for example.

As a rough indicator, Opta's simulation suggests it's quiet likely that they'll drop out of top four, despite Dortmund and Leipzig being terrible.
 
do.ob said:
Always with the selective application of xG. If you want to go by xPts you should also look at last season, where they underperformed that stat to the tune of 14 points, even before Hoeneß took over and they had all that negative momentum.

Guirassy is probably having one of the all-time best minute/goal ratios and Undav is having a better ratio than Haaland, too and what do you know, they got one point more from their "Hinrunde" than Union Berlin last season.

So great for them, great for them, Hoeneß will be on the short list for coach of the season and on the radar of clubs like Dortmund, Leipzig or Leverkusen, but I think we should put this into perspective. Already talking like they'll finish the season in top four is quiet a big assumption for example.

As a rough indicator, Opta's simulation suggests it's quiet likely that they'll drop out of top four, despite Dortmund and Leipzig being terrible.
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It is not selective and I know that they severely underperformed their xPts last season again. Half my Kickbase squad consists of Stuttgart players for that reason. I was a fan of them already under Matarazzo and thought Mislintat did a great job. It is still exceptional how Hoeneß has them playing. Results, xPts, eyetest, it doesn't matter - they leave a whlostically great expression.
 
Poor finishing from Leverkusen today. Don't think it'll cost them in the end as there's some time to go but they really should've put this to bed already.
 
autopilot said:
Poor finishing from Leverkusen today. Don't think it'll cost them in the end as there's some time to go but they really should've put this to bed already.
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Should be up by like 5-0 :lol:
 
No idea why Aytekin is so popular. Very bad referee performance again
 
autopilot said:
Poor finishing from Leverkusen today. Don't think it'll cost them in the end as there's some time to go but they really should've put this to bed already.
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So about this... looks like it's just going to be one of those days.
 
No one to blame but their incredibly poor finishing. Created enough chances.
 
Feck of Gladbach, had no intention of winning the game. Just parking the bus against their biggest rivals.

Zehner said:
No idea why Aytekin is so popular. Very bad referee performance again
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Yea, he's consistently terrible.
 
RG77 said:
No one to blame but their incredibly poor finishing. Created enough chances.
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Aytekin/VAR is definitely not blameless. That was a clear shirt pull on Wirtz there.
 
Zehner said:
Aytekin/VAR is definitely not blameless. That was a clear shirt pull on Wirtz there.
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Yeah admittedly the ref was very poor. But Frimpong alone should have had two goals. Just one of those games.
 
B. Munich said:
Gladbach doing this shit for many years against Bayern.
Glad to see another team being on the receiving end than us.
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Makes sense against Bayern given the disparity between the two teams, to do it against Leverkusen is a new low for them. Don't remember them deploying similar tactics against Dortmund.
 
Acrobat7 said:
Bayern plays Gladbach next…
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I think the Gladbach curse is over after Sommer left.
Also Gladbach always lost the next match after a performance like today.
So I'm pretty postive we will beat them comfortably next week.
 
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