German Football 23/24 |

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Blackwidow said:
Story just is that the most fans are not in the stadium but are the ones that watch either at home in Germany or from abroad. Even the most fans with season tickets (and there is long waiting lists at some clubs) watch the away matches via TV.

When I hear fan voices it usually is just the fans that attend the stadiums - not the many, many others. And no - it is not that this ones are the only real fans as they often say they are... They are just the ones that are lucky to be able to attend the matches in person.
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People at home create revenue. (Non-plastic) Fans at stadiums create the atmosphere and culture that Bundesliga is trying to sell.
So there is definitely a difference.
But I don't think the protests are about that at all. They are mainly against selling out and I guess, if we're being honest, also against change in general.
 
do.ob said:
People at home create revenue. (Non-plastic) Fans at stadiums create the atmosphere and culture that Bundesliga is trying to sell.
So there is definitely a difference.
But I don't think the protests are about that at all. They are mainly against selling out and I guess, if we're being honest, also against change in general.
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This. Change is regarded as a threat rather than an opportunity. A very German approach to life.
 
do.ob said:
I'm not arguing in favor of Kind, just against the notion that it was Bayern and Dortmund against the world.
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I never said that but they were clearly the main drivers behind the whole thing. I'm not surprised they have it easy to rally support behind them when half the league consists of soulless shills like Hoffenheim, Leipzig and VW and desperate clubs like Schalke or Hansa who out of short time thinking take any penny they can get.
B. Munich said:
Finally the first step to get rid of this outdated rule. 50+1 only makes sense when everybody implements it, not only Germany.
It's time to accept the new reality. Without investors leagues and clubs won't stay competitive internationally.
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I don't give a shit about "staying competitive internationally". Outside very few isolated instances (German) football isn't an emerging market where you get all sort of investors generally positive about their investment being worth something. The only big actors with major investments mostly have another agenda and are happy to burn money (Newcastle, City). The majority of the business is already running on leveraged money, the companies buying TV rights have been running on losses for years.
The whole "refinement of business model", "opportunities of new media market" is just marketing talk trying to lure the gullible fan into thinking the big bucks will come in. If that were the case you wouldn't need an investor to make it work. It's the same with Barca trying to sell people the idea that their "Barca studios lever" is worth something. Every major club that can attrect interest has already ramped up on that front on their own, started cooperations with Amazon, Netflix and so on. These youtube videos or even All or Nothing productions are nice to have but in the bigger scheme mean nothing financially. Do people really think that getting dressing room highlights from Heidenheim or insights of Hoffenheims bus will help against the PL dominating the international market? Pretty laughable.
 
Kasper said:
I never said that but they were clearly the main drivers behind the whole thing. I'm not surprised they have it easy to rally support behind them when half the league consists of soulless shills like Hoffenheim, Leipzig and VW and desperate clubs like Schalke or Hansa who out of short time thinking take any penny they can get.

I don't give a shit about "staying competitive internationally". Outside very few isolated instances (German) football isn't an emerging market where you get all sort of investors generally positive about their investment being worth something. The only big actors with major investments mostly have another agenda and are happy to burn money (Newcastle, City). The majority of the business is already running on leveraged money, the companies buying TV rights have been running on losses for years.
The whole "refinement of business model", "opportunities of new media market" is just marketing talk trying to lure the gullible fan into thinking the big bucks will come in. If that were the case you wouldn't need an investor to make it work. It's the same with Barca trying to sell people the idea that their "Barca studios lever" is worth something. Every major club that can attrect interest has already ramped up on that front on their own, started cooperations with Amazon, Netflix and so on. These youtube videos or even All or Nothing productions are nice to have but in the bigger scheme mean nothing financially. Do people really think that getting dressing room highlights from Heidenheim or insights of Hoffenheims bus will help against the PL dominating the international market? Pretty laughable.
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If it was such an obviously stupid idea, that is going to cost everyone money in the end, why did 2/3s of clubs vote for it?
I don't think they even tried to convince "gullible fans". Organized fans were always going to oppose it categorically, fans, who aren't organized, were never going to cause trouble over it.
 
do.ob said:
If it was such an obviously stupid idea, that is going to cost everyone money in the end, why did 2/3s of clubs vote for it?
I don't think they even tried to convince "gullible fans". Organized fans were always going to oppose it categorically, fans, who aren't organized, were never going to cause trouble over it.
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I've just explained it to you before. The majority of clubs are running on a red budget, you think a sports director which an average expectation of staying in a job for 3-5 years will say no to fresh money coming in right away? The whole business has been built on the mentality of short term gambling for decades. Of course, for Bayern and Dortmund (and probably RB and Leverkusen and I guess a few other stupid clubs who think they're internationally relevant) strengthening the foreign marketing primarily benefits themselves as they expect to receive an even larger share of the income from abroad. I guess the beneficial drop off after 3-4 clubs will be pretty steep but I guess clubs like HSV really think that half of China is just waiting for them to emerge as a European giant again.
 
Kasper said:
I've just explained it to you before. The majority of clubs are running on a red budget, you think a sports director which an average expectation of staying in a job for 3-5 years will say no to fresh money coming in right away? The whole business has been built on the mentality of short term gambling for decades. Of course, for Bayern and Dortmund (and probably RB and Leverkusen and I guess a few other stupid clubs who think they're internationally relevant) strengthening the foreign marketing primarily benefits themselves as they expect to receive an even larger share of the income from abroad. I guess the beneficial drop off after 3-4 clubs will be pretty steep but I guess clubs like HSV really think that half of China is just waiting for them to emerge as a European giant again.
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But this wasn't voted in by sports directors? Is for example the charming Martin Kind the sports director of Hannover?
Where does it say this isn't supposed to also affect the German market?
And TV money is shared among clubs anyway.
 
do.ob said:
But this wasn't voted in by sports directors? Is for example the charming Martin Kind the sports director of Hannover?
Where does it say this isn't supposed to also affect the German market?
And TV money is shared among clubs anyway.
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I should've said club official, I'm always to lazy to get into the nuances of management/ownership positions, point still stands. The majority of people in charge have a look out for now mentality.
The TV money is shared point just makes it even more evident that this helps a few clubs because we all know how that money is distributed.
If the long term prospects were so great they could've just run the vote democratically though all the members of each club. Instead the process was deliberately moved forward as quickly as possible so that potential General assemblies could not intervene. We all know the reason for that.
 
Kasper said:
I should've said club official, I'm always to lazy to get into the nuances of management/ownership positions, point still stands. The majority of people in charge have a look out for now mentality.
The TV money is shared point just makes it even more evident that this helps a few clubs because we all know how that money is distributed.
If the long term prospects were so great they could've just run the vote democratically though all the members of each club. Instead the process was deliberately moved forward as quickly as possible so that potential General assemblies could not intervene. We all know the reason for that.
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Elected officials voting through a change with a 2/3 majority is enough to change our consitution. So how is it undemocratic to use the same concept to vote on a "measly" business deal? If I remember correctly the 2/3 majority was even a self-imposed criterium. And those officials are usually precisely the people, who (plan to) stick around for more than 3-5 years and stick to as few as one clubs in their lifetime, who else to represent the club's long-term interests?
 
Kasper said:
I don't give a shit about "staying competitive internationally".
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If you don't care about competitiveness then what do you care about German football at all?

Bayern got ~26 million Euro TV money for the Bundesliga, the last in EPL, Southampton, got 159 million USD. And with every new TV deal the gap will widen. This isn't sustainable and in a few years no top players will play in the Bundesliga anymore.


Kasper said:
The only big actors with major investments mostly have another agenda and are happy to burn money (Newcastle, City).
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The vote wasn't about investors being able to take over clubs, it was about investors who will generate more TV money internationally for each club.
 
I went to watch the Dortmund/Leipzig & Dusseldorf/Kiel game this past weeked, landed back yesterday, stark contrast to say the least between the games.

Adeyami is definitely one who I'd have at United, the kid is electric.
 
Kasper said:
I never said that but they were clearly the main drivers behind the whole thing. I'm not surprised they have it easy to rally support behind them when half the league consists of soulless shills like Hoffenheim, Leipzig and VW and desperate clubs like Schalke or Hansa who out of short time thinking take any penny they can get.

I don't give a shit about "staying competitive internationally". Outside very few isolated instances (German) football isn't an emerging market where you get all sort of investors generally positive about their investment being worth something. The only big actors with major investments mostly have another agenda and are happy to burn money (Newcastle, City). The majority of the business is already running on leveraged money, the companies buying TV rights have been running on losses for years.
The whole "refinement of business model", "opportunities of new media market" is just marketing talk trying to lure the gullible fan into thinking the big bucks will come in. If that were the case you wouldn't need an investor to make it work. It's the same with Barca trying to sell people the idea that their "Barca studios lever" is worth something. Every major club that can attrect interest has already ramped up on that front on their own, started cooperations with Amazon, Netflix and so on. These youtube videos or even All or Nothing productions are nice to have but in the bigger scheme mean nothing financially. Do people really think that getting dressing room highlights from Heidenheim or insights of Hoffenheims bus will help against the PL dominating the international market? Pretty laughable.
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Fresh ideas from outside the German football bubble will definitely help. 10 years ago, you could already find highlight compilations of talents from Brazil's second division on YouTube but every video of Mario Götze was taken down immediately. And now? The amount of content is still lightyears behind La Liga, EPL and Serie A. If you don't believe that stuff like this has a huge influence on the international marketability of the Bundesliga, you're simply wrong. The football operations of most Bundesliga clubs are already antiquated and uninspired but they are still farther advanced than the commercial side of things, probably because most "true fans" are categorically against any form of investment without even knowing what that means.

I started watching football in the early 00s and I still remember how terrible the mid 00s were from the perspective of a German football fan. The national team consisted of subpar players with only one or two being good enough for an international top team. Speaking of which, Bayern definitely didn't belong in that category back then and they still dominated the league. The top stars of the other teams (Marcelinho, Lincoln, Micoud, etc) were nice to watch but played second fiddle in their national teams because the truly great players didn't give a feck on the Bundesliga. I mean, those were multiple seasons in which not a single player outside Bayern was good enough to even hope to one day play for Real Madrid, Barca and the likes. I don't need that again, personally. If you don't care, that's fine but maybe amateur football is more fitting for you. Not the highest quality but no commerce, regional and honest.
 
do.ob said:
Elected officials voting through a change with a 2/3 majority is enough to change our consitution. So how is it undemocratic to use the same concept to vote on a "measly" business deal? If I remember correctly the 2/3 majority was even a self-imposed criterium. And those officials are usually precisely the people, who (plan to) stick around for more than 3-5 years and stick to as few as one clubs in their lifetime, who else to represent the club's long-term interests?
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You keep moving the goalpost bt it's good to see that you don't disagree with this deal not showing promising potential down the line. I'm all for representative democracy but you have to be pretty deluded to think that the current DFL/club system is a symbol of functioning representation. Kind does what he wants, RB Leipzig is a farce of a "member" club and plenty of officials do everything they can to tinker with the topics which are being voted on at general assemblies as much as they can. You might try to convince yourself that the majority of representatives voting at these DFL issues have their club's long-term interest at heart but the reality is for the most of them their job perspective is pretty limited and they are very much focused on the present not the future.

B. Munich said:
If you don't care about competitiveness then what do you care about German football at all?

Bayern got ~26 million Euro TV money for the Bundesliga, the last in EPL, Southampton, got 159 million USD. And with every new TV deal the gap will widen. This isn't sustainable and in a few years no top players will play in the Bundesliga anymore.



The vote wasn't about investors being able to take over clubs, it was about investors who will generate more TV money internationally for each club.
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I care about competitiveness but in functioning closed system. I actually care more about the internal balance of German football than giving a shit about what late stage capitalism fantasy might allow Bayern or Dortmund to compete with Madrid or City. They can get thumped every CL match for all Ic are.
As for your second part, you brought up 50+1 yourself, to which I replied. I was fully aware that the vote wasn't on club investors.

Zehner said:
Fresh ideas from outside the German football bubble will definitely help. 10 years ago, you could already find highlight compilations of talents from Brazil's second division on YouTube but every video of Mario Götze was taken down immediately. And now? The amount of content is still lightyears behind La Liga, EPL and Serie A. If you don't believe that stuff like this has a huge influence on the international marketability of the Bundesliga, you're simply wrong. The football operations of most Bundesliga clubs are already antiquated and uninspired but they are still farther advanced than the commercial side of things, probably because most "true fans" are categorically against any form of investment without even knowing what that means.

I started watching football in the early 00s and I still remember how terrible the mid 00s were from the perspective of a German football fan. The national team consisted of subpar players with only one or two being good enough for an international top team. Speaking of which, Bayern definitely didn't belong in that category back then and they still dominated the league. The top stars of the other teams (Marcelinho, Lincoln, Micoud, etc) were nice to watch but played second fiddle in their national teams because the truly great players didn't give a feck on the Bundesliga. I mean, those were multiple seasons in which not a single player outside Bayern was good enough to even hope to one day play for Real Madrid, Barca and the likes. I don't need that again, personally. If you don't care, that's fine but maybe amateur football is more fitting for you. Not the highest quality but no commerce, regional and honest.
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Nice story but no idea what that has anything to do with what I wrote. Maybe Watzke has done a better job than I give him credit for if Bundesliga clubs really think they need external investors in order to produce youtube videos. But coming from someone who believes City are where they are because they have that smarty start up mentality and not because of an infinite money dwell I'm not surprised that you believe the "new media market" fairytale.
 
Kasper said:
You keep moving the goalpost bt it's good to see that you don't disagree with this deal not showing promising potential down the line. I'm all for representative democracy but you have to be pretty deluded to think that the current DFL/club system is a symbol of functioning representation. Kind does what he wants, RB Leipzig is a farce of a "member" club and plenty of officials do everything they can to tinker with the topics which are being voted on at general assemblies as much as they can. You might try to convince yourself that the majority of representatives voting at these DFL issues have their club's long-term interest at heart but the reality is for the most of them their job perspective is pretty limited and they are very much focused on the present not the future.
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I'm all for enforcing 50+1 more strictly, but that's not what this vote was about - so much for moving the goal posts. It was always going to be one vote per club. Where it's plastic that vote is plastic, where it's 50+1 that vote was legitimized by a membership vote that (ultimately) chose these people to represent their club. If that's not enough for you: all the clubs who voted against have about 440k members between them. Bayern alone has 316k members, together with Dortmund that's 493k. Democracy.. but just the right amount?

I think it's a pretty bold statement to say that club presidents and CEOs don't have their own club's well-being at heart. That could be said about coaches, sure - and the kind of sports director, who changes clubs frequently maybe. But the people above them? Watzke was appointed Dortmund's treasurer in 2021, that's 22 years holding an office at the club, quite a bit longer than your average marriage lasts. You think he doesn't have the club's best interest at heart? The same for Rummenigge and Hoeneß, as much as I dislike them. Frankfurt's CEO has been with them since 1998, Schippers has been with Gladbach since 99.

Kasper said:
I care about competitiveness but in functioning closed system. I actually care more about the internal balance of German football than giving a shit about what late stage capitalism fantasy might allow Bayern or Dortmund to compete with Madrid or City. They can get thumped every CL match for all Ic are.
As for your second part, you brought up 50+1 yourself, to which I replied. I was fully aware that the vote wasn't on club investors.
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You think the current system is highly functional with Bayern winning the league n times in a row and two plastic clubs in the top 4? There is no careful balance to upset and if you just want to see some "honest football" in 2. Bundesliga I don't see what it actually changes for you. If money in football is so utterly irrelelvant to you, why care about 8% of TV money being invested at all? I mean as football fans we surely don't mind the other part, creating more/better/closer media content? maybe getting a look into the dressing room, instead of watching some pundits on Sky rehash the same phrases for the millionth time?

As far as my personal opinion goes, I stated it at the start: this deal is a pretty sizeable committment, but I think going with the times in terms of digitalization and broadcasting is long overdue. I don't expect fairy tale returns, but standing still and refusing to accept that the times keep changing is what got us here in the first place. The time to tackle digitalization and globalization with little/moderate investments here and there was probably 10 to 20 years ago. But the league stayed on a conservative course, so now there's a debt that has to be paid.
 
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Kasper said:
I care about competitiveness but in functioning closed system. I actually care more about the internal balance of German football than giving a shit about what late stage capitalism fantasy might allow Bayern or Dortmund to compete with Madrid or City. They can get thumped every CL match for all Ic are.
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Fair point. As a Hansa Rostock fan I wouldn't care probably either.

But what do you care about? Are the current system and rules so perfect? After all they made it possible for Bayern to win 11 titles in a row

Are you happy the Bundesliga to become a feeder league for the other European leagues?

In an ideal world all clubs (and countries) would adhere to the 50+1 rule. If only Germany is doing it, it's just stupid to the point of self destruction.

You complain about plastic clubs like red bull or Bayer. Unfortunately, these clubs are much better run than most big traditional clubs. Just look at the disasters that happened at HSV, Schalke, Kaiserslautern, 1860 Munich, Nürnberg, Hertha and many others. Too many people have a say which hardly leads to success.
 
Mazraoui is out atleast 6 to 8 weeks with a bigger muscle fiber tear (Bündelriss) and will miss the Africa Cup - Coman has a normal muscle fiber tear and will miss the 2 matches prior to the break.
 
Blackwidow said:
Mazraoui is out atleast 6 to 8 weeks with a bigger muscle fiber tear (Bündelriss) and will miss the Africa Cup - Coman has a normal muscle fiber tear and will miss the 2 matches prior to the break.
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Not mad about him missing the Africa Cup but man…. We really need a RB in the winter break.
 
Acrobat7 said:
Not mad about him missing the Africa Cup but man…. We really need a RB in the winter break.
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Nah, Tuchel should just use his imagination, after all that's what he's paid for ;)
 
Quite the English atmosphere in Augsburg.. I assume it's similar in the other games?
 
Disappointing game from Dortmund again, but I think Füllkrug is showing a bit of individual development, he seems to have improved when it comes to those little flicks and layoffs, that allow quick players to exploit gaps, before they close. Something that should be quite useful for the NT as well.
 
Leverkusen leads 3:0 against Frankfurt.

And Bayern has to play without Coman, Mazraoui (injured against Manchester) - and Kimmich and Goretzka got sick.

Neuer © - Laimer, Upamecano, Kim, Davies - Pavlović, Guerreiro - Müller, Musiala, Sané - Kane
 
Blackwidow said:
Leverkusen leads 3:0 against Frankfurt.

And Bayern has to play without Coman, Mazraoui (injured against Manchester) - and Kimmich and Goretzka got sick.

Neuer © - Laimer, Upamecano, Kim, Davies - Pavlović, Guerreiro - Müller, Musiala, Sané - Kane
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That midfield is as makeshift as it gets... a kid and a long injured player who rarely played in the CM before.
 
The match atmosphere sounds so weird with the fans protest, it's almost like we're back to COVID where you can hear everything on the pitch.
 
So many wasted chances now, although some were saved very competently. Still we need to lead by more than 1 here.
 
WTF? First goal by Kim ruled out for offside, because VAR had technical problems, now Mueller's goal which was given by the referee is ruled out by VAR. That suddenly working again.

Why don't just award the points to Stuttgart?
 
B. Munich said:
WTF? First goal by Kim ruled out for offside, because VAR had technical problems, now Mueller's goal which was given by the referee is ruled out by VAR. That suddenly working again.

Why don't just award the points to Stuttgart?
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Well that is how VAR works.
 
B. Munich said:
WTF? First goal by Kim ruled out for offside, because VAR had technical problems, now Mueller's goal which was given by the referee is ruled out by VAR. That suddenly working again.

Why don't just award the points to Stuttgart?
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I did wonder why that goal was given offside because even after relays Kim looked on-side. I think it was given offside on field but couldn't be overturned because VAR wasn't working. Unlucky but would have needed technology to overturn the on field decision.

Can't complain about the Muller decision, it was clearly offside.
 
FortunaUtd said:
Well that is how VAR works.
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Well in my stream the told the VAR isn't working because issues with cameras. Therefore, they couldn't check whether Kim was really in an offside position.
15 min later the cameras are suddenly working to rule Mueller's goal.
 
B. Munich said:
Well in my stream the told the VAR isn't working because issues with cameras. Therefore, they couldn't check whether Kim was really in an offside position.
15 min later the cameras are suddenly working to rule Mueller's goal.
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So you are complaining about VAR working again?
 
Is this the first time Bayern is playing on counter explicitly since... maybe Barcelona 2013? Dunno, so weird, but very effective against Stuttgart.

Edit; 2-0 ;dd
 
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