German Football 21/22 | Gladbach sign Farke

[Zehner]

Didn't cologne also have 8 regulars not being available for the match?
Dortmund didn't play better or worse than against Hoffenheim, Bielefeld or Mainz. They just didn't have the luck they had against Mainz and Hoffenheim.

Dortmund isn't an elite team for a while. Just look at this year's cup competition. Despite having pretty easy draws, they failed thoroughly. None of their exits was unlucky or undeserved.
Their position in the Bundesliga is actually pretty good considering their performances. There were years they played much better football and were much further behind.
One reason of course is Bayern playing pretty underwhelming since the winter break.

I think it's truly worrying how they ended up with the team they currently have despite their considerable budget at this point. Some of the decisions they made are downright terrible. Meunier and Can were purely big name signings and it should've been clear to everyone with eyes that they don't possess enough quality. Schulz has been absolutely terrible to a degree that you have to question the scouting. I think there are no excuses for these decisions, they should never have been made.

The rest is more ambivalent. You've got generally good players who are somewhat hot and cold like Akanji, Dahoud and Brandt and at least in case of the latter, they also have themselves to blame for it. Then some great talents like Bellingham and Reyna who cannot be blamed for being incosistent. Then many injury prone players such as Hummels and Reus but also talents who are slowed down due to it (Moukoko, Morey, Zagadou).

I hope they refocus on what made them strong in the first place. Screw those big name transfers and when you do sign players to immediately improve the squad, make sure you have a plan for them. Save the huge salaries for mediocre players and spank the cash instead on holding onto your top talents for as long as possible. Accept a transitional phase when you lose a player and others have to step up instead of spending it on immediate improvements who actually won't improve you and instead will limit your spending power for years to come because you can't ship them off since nobody will offer them a comparable contract.

 

[do.ob]

Didn't cologne also have 8 regulars not being available for the match?
Dortmund didn't play better or worse than against Hoffenheim, Bielefeld or Mainz. They just didn't have the luck they had against Mainz and Hoffenheim.

Dortmund isn't an elite team for a while. Just look at this year's cup competition. Despite having pretty easy draws, they failed thoroughly. None of their exits was unlucky or undeserved.
Their position in the Bundesliga is actually pretty good considering their performances. There were years they played much better football and were much further behind.
One reason of course is Bayern playing pretty underwhelming since the winter break.

Dortmund certainly aren't a particularly good team this season and the points tally in Bundesliga is flattering. But regarding the bolded you only have to look at the injury situation and Hummels' red card against Ajax.

I think it's truly worrying how they ended up with the team they currently have despite their considerable budget at this point. Some of the decisions they made are downright terrible. Meunier and Can were purely big name signings and it should've been clear to everyone with eyes that they don't possess enough quality. Schulz has been absolutely terrible to a degree that you have to question the scouting. I think there are no excuses for these decisions, they should never have been made.

I don't know why you would single out Meunier and Can, the former had a terrible start, but he's been at least solid for a while now. He's also been a free transfer, when money was tight because of the pandemic. Can's performances don't justify his wages, which is why the club would probably sell him if presented with a decent offer. But he's not dragging his team down in principle. The far bigger problem is Julian Brandt, who sabotages a cohesive pressing idea, whose favorite hobbies include giving the ball away in the middle of the pitch with sloppy passing, frequently having games so bad you want to yank him off at half time or losing his spot to 18 year olds and Marius Wolf.

I hope they refocus on what made them strong in the first place. Screw those big name transfers and when you do sign players to immediately improve the squad, make sure you have a plan for them. Save the huge salaries for mediocre players and spank the cash instead on holding onto your top talents for as long as possible. Accept a transitional phase when you lose a player and others have to step up instead of spending it on immediate improvements who actually won't improve you and instead will limit your spending power for years to come because you can't ship them off since nobody will offer them a comparable contract.

Modern football doesn't work like that, you can't just exclusively rely on young players in Dortmund's position. The truly good ones will get offers to double their wages from elsewhere after two or three years, at which point it's hard enough to hold them to their contract, let alone extend it. What you're describing as a transitional phase would be a permanent status and I think that would hurt your chances to convince the most promising players to join in the first place.
The team needs a stable and experienced backbone.

 

[B. Munich]

But regarding the bolded you only have to look at the injury situation and Hummels' red card against Ajax.

The red card for Hummels was a joke and had surely impacted that particular game.
Still they should have easily reached the knock out stages as group second.
The 4:0 at Ajax was a very poor performance and Ajax is a good but not a top team. Just look at their CL exit against benfica or the tight title challenge with PSV.
Then was the match in Portugal which was shocking also.
That's why I said their exit wasn't unlucky.

 

[Zehner]

I don't know why you would single out Meunier and Can, the former had a terrible start, but he's been at least solid for a while now. He's also been a free transfer, when money was tight because of the pandemic. Can's performances don't justify his wages, which is why the club would probably sell him if presented with a decent offer. But he's not dragging his team down in principle. The far bigger problem is Julian Brandt, who sabotages a cohesive pressing idea, whose favorite hobbies include giving the ball away in the middle of the pitch with sloppy passing, frequently having games so bad you want to yank him off at half time or losing his spot to 18 year olds and Marius Wolf.

Brandt had many games this season in which he was ridiculously good. Notably against us and against Bayern. He was far and away the best Dortmund player in these games. So he has actually shown that he is capable of performing to the level required or even more.

In contrast, Meunier is comically bad. Like really, really bad. Literally one of the worst starters I've seen for Dortmund since Klopp took over. He at times gives you Bellarabi vibes only that he doesn't even possess pace. He's one of the "mate, what are you thinking?!" kind. The player you hope is ignored by his team mates because he manages to lose possession in ways you couldn't even imagine. Can is alright as a back up but for this price tag he would have to be one of the best players for Dortmund. Instead he plays utterly brainless in many games. Think the trademark Can move is receiving the ball around the half way line then dribbling intot he opponent half, holding the ball far too long, until making a dumb shot, cross or pass into nowhere. And he seems to be contractually obliged to make this at least twice a game. He's a bit like Pogba in his most frustrating times, only a far inferior alround player.

You fielded a starting line up featuring Schulz, Pongracic, Passlack, Can and Wolf a few games ago. Surely that can't be Dortmund's abition.

Modern football doesn't work like that, you can't just exclusively rely on young players in Dortmund's position. The truly good ones will get offers to double their wages from elsewhere after two or three years, at which point it's hard enough to hold them to their contract, let alone extend it. What you're describing as a transitional phase would be a permanent status and I think that would hurt your chances to convince the most promising players to join in the first place.
The team needs a stable and experienced backbone.

Well, if the alternatives are players like Can, Meunier or Schulz then Dortmund don't have much choice other than to rely on young players. I for one would prefer bringing in two promising talents than somebody like Meunier and hope that one of them develops to a decent enough level. If they fail, you can still ship them off because they're on a low salary. Not with Meunier. Who will pay him what Dortmund is most likely paying him? Or Can?

What Dortmund should be aiming at (and are aiming at) is prolonging the talent cycles. Gradually get your top prospects to stay for another year before leaving. But bringing in rejects from top clubs won't do the deal. Because truth be told, Dortmund can't buy players which are good enough for their own standards directly, they have to develop them themselves. There's no short cut to it.

 

[do.ob]

Brandt had many games this season in which he was ridiculously good. Notably against us and against Bayern. He was far and away the best Dortmund player in these games. So he has actually shown that he is capable of performing to the level required or even more.

Sometimes he has good games, sometimes he has atrocious games, always he's a defensive risk. First Favre benched him for Reyna/Bellingham, then Terzic did the same now Rose is benching him for none other than Marius Wolf and reports suggest that he's at the top of Dortmund's hit list for the summer. Why do you think that is?

In contrast, Meunier is comically bad. Like really, really bad. Literally one of the worst starters I've seen for Dortmund since Klopp took over. He at times gives you Bellarabi vibes only that he doesn't even possess pace. He's one of the "mate, what are you thinking?!" kind. The player you hope is ignored by his team mates because he manages to lose possession in ways you couldn't even imagine. Can is alright as a back up but for this price tag he would have to be one of the best players for Dortmund. Instead he plays utterly brainless in many games. Think the trademark Can move is receiving the ball around the half way line then dribbling intot he opponent half, holding the ball far too long, until making a dumb shot, cross or pass into nowhere. And he seems to be contractually obliged to make this at least twice a game. He's a bit like Pogba in his most frustrating times, only a far inferior alround player.

What you're writing about Meunier was true for the first few months after his arrival, but it simply isn't anymore. He's definitely not a top player, but he does a solid job and even has had some moments in attack with 2 goals and 4 assists in 1400 minutes.

Can cost and earns too much and failed in his ambition to be a leader, I don't think anyone would ever say otherwise.

You fielded a starting line up featuring Schulz, Pongracic, Passlack, Can and Wolf a few games ago. Surely that can't be Dortmund's abition.

Most of them are backups, Pongracic and Passlack in particular are 3rd to 5th choice in their position. These set of players being on the pitch at the same time is a consequence of injuries and not anything that was planned.

Well, if the alternatives are players like Can, Meunier or Schulz then Dortmund don't have much choice other than to rely on young players. I for one would prefer bringing in two promising talents than somebody like Meunier and hope that one of them develops to a decent enough level. If they fail, you can still ship them off because they're on a low salary. Not with Meunier. Who will pay him what Dortmund is most likely paying him? Or Can?

What Dortmund should be aiming at (and are aiming at) is prolonging the talent cycles. Gradually get your top prospects to stay for another year before leaving. But bringing in rejects from top clubs won't do the deal. Because truth be told, Dortmund can't buy players which are good enough for their own standards directly, they have to develop them themselves. There's no short cut to it.

Meunier was a free transfer and you want to buy not one but two fullbacks for the money he cost? And do you believe that Dortmund would have bought Can or Schulz for the same price if they knew how things would turn out with them? Messing up the execution doesn't necessarily mean the strategy itself was wrong. You put a kid into your team and he's bound to feck up frequently for a year or two. In moderation that's still worth it, because some of them will in turn carry the team for another year or two after that. But if you do that on every position you're basically Leverkusen: forever wondering why you always come up short. Forever thinking: if only he would have stayed a year longer/would have been ready a year sooner, because every time someone is ready to deliver another one is already gone and replaced with a kid who drags you down, then next year that kid is a stable performer, but the other player is gone after he peaked. Even Leipzig keep their experienced spine around: Gulacsi, Tschauner, Orban, Klostermann, Halstenberg, Kampl, Forsberg, Poulsen and if they could have held on to him Sabitzer. Their ideal team would probably only include Gulacsi (Sabitzer), but these players are like quality control, they ensure you can expect a certain baseline performance from your team. If one of the talents is better than them then great, if not they learn what competition means and you're not forced to let them mess up your season.

 

[Zehner]

Sometimes he has good games, sometimes he has atrocious games, always he's a defensive risk. First Favre benched him for Reyna/Bellingham, then Terzic did the same now Rose is benching him for none other than Marius Wolf and reports suggest that he's at the top of Dortmund's hit list for the summer. Why do you think that is?

He didn't have good games, he had mindblowing ones. He was the best player on the pitch against Leverkusen despite the result. But I agree that this is a big misunderstanding. I think the transfer was a lose-lose-lose situation fromt he very beginning.

What you're writing about Meunier was true for the first few months after his arrival, but it simply isn't anymore. He's definitely not a top player, but he does a solid job and even has had some moments in attack with 2 goals and 4 assists in 1400 minutes.

No, my friend, no no no I've seen too much of Meunier to let this tand. One of my best mates is a Dortmund supporter and we watch lots of games with each other. I wind him up with Meunier the same way he winded me up with Bellarabi and it is definitelly happening this season. Meunier is the kind of player that makes you chuckle/laughing out loud literally out of nowhere because the decisions he makes are sometimes that absurd. Sometimes, he fails to retain possession five times in arow and each time he's on the ball, he's thinking of a completely unanticipated way of losing it. He's very creative if you think of it this way, just not in the way fans want the footballers of their club to be creative

Can cost and earns too much and failed in his ambition to be a leader, I don't think anyone would ever say otherwise.

Most of them are backups, Pongracic and Passlack in particular are 3rd to 5th choice in their position. These set of players being on the pitch at the same time is a consequence of injuries and not anything that was planned.

Reus, Hummels, Zagadou and Morey are very injury prone. And Akanji, Guerreiro, Dahoud, Hazard, etc. aren't exactly unbreakable either. If Hummels, Akanji and Zagadou are the three first choice CBs, it's clear that Pongracic will play regularly. And let's be real, the only RB in your squad who could be CL level is Morey who is still suffering from a potentially career ending nightmare of an injury.

Meunier was a free transfer and you want to buy not one but two fullbacks for the money he cost? And do you believe that Dortmund would have bought Can or Schulz for the same price if they knew how things would turn out with them? Messing up the execution doesn't necessarily mean the strategy itself was wrong.

Meunier will earn a shitload of salary and that's what's holding back Dortmund first and foremost. Becaise fees can be re-generated. And no, I believe they bought them because they were looking for immediate improvement and this was he best they could find. Bakker cost €7m, Hincapie €10m and Frimpong €10m. Don't you think Dortmund wouldve been better off by now if they signed a player like this and give them 6-12 months to settle in?

You put a kid into your team and he's bound to feck up frequently for a year or two. In moderation that's still worth it, because some of them will in turn carry the team for another year or two after that. But if you do that on every position you're basically Leverkusen: forever wondering why you always come up short. Forever thinking: if only he would have stayed a year longer/would have been ready a year sooner, because every time someone is ready to deliver another one is already gone and replaced with a kid who drags you down, then next year that kid is a stable performer, but the other player is gone after he peaked. Even Leipzig keep their experienced spine around: Gulacsi, Tschauner, Orban, Klostermann, Halstenberg, Kampl, Forsberg, Poulsen and if they could have held on to him Sabitzer. Their ideal team would probably only include Gulacsi (Sabitzer), but these players are like quality control, they ensure you can expect a certain baseline performance from your team. If one of the talents is better than them then great, if not they learn what competition means and you're not forced to let them mess up your season.

Proven players are just a tiny bit less likely to feck up than talents. When you can get multiple talents for one proven player, I guess it evens out. Especially because you also always have talents who hit the ground running.

And there's a difference between keeping an experienced spine around and implementing an experienced spine. It simply doesn't work, there's always the risk of failure if you rip a proven player out of his familiar environment. It's just the illusion of a guarantee.

Stick to the development of young players, you have the capacities to still have a better team than the rest of the league bar Bayern by that alone. Some will figure out that Dortmund is their ceiling, they can become your new spine. Some will leave but the better the salaries you can afford, the longer they will stay. And the longer they stay, the longer the time of talent cycle x and cycle x+1 overlaps.

 

[do.ob]

He didn't have good games, he had mindblowing ones. He was the best player on the pitch against Leverkusen despite the result. But I agree that this is a big misunderstanding. I think the transfer was a lose-lose-lose situation fromt he very beginning.

So you think a supposedly "mindblowing" player being benched for teenagers and Marius Wolf is just something that happens. A misunderstanding.

No, my friend, no no no I've seen too much of Meunier to let this tand. One of my best mates is a Dortmund supporter and we watch lots of games with each other. I wind him up with Meunier the same way he winded me up with Bellarabi and it is definitelly happening this season. Meunier is the kind of player that makes you chuckle/laughing out loud literally out of nowhere because the decisions he makes are sometimes that absurd. Sometimes, he fails to retain possession five times in arow and each time he's on the ball, he's thinking of a completely unanticipated way of losing it. He's very creative if you think of it this way, just not in the way fans want the footballers of their club to be creative


Reus, Hummels, Zagadou and Morey are very injury prone. And Akanji, Guerreiro, Dahoud, Hazard, etc. aren't exactly unbreakable either. If Hummels, Akanji and Zagadou are the three first choice CBs, it's clear that Pongracic will play regularly. And let's be real, the only RB in your squad who could be CL level is Morey who is still suffering from a potentially career ending nightmare of an injury.


Meunier will earn a shitload of salary and that's what's holding back Dortmund first and foremost. Becaise fees can be re-generated. And no, I believe they bought them because they were looking for immediate improvement and this was he best they could find. Bakker cost €7m, Hincapie €10m and Frimpong €10m. Don't you think Dortmund wouldve been better off by now if they signed a player like this and give them 6-12 months to settle in?

The irony of course is that Julian Brandt himself is a master of the unnecessary turnover and actually ahead of Meunier in whoscored's feckup metrics, such as 2.5 vs 1.7 unsuccessful touches and 1.2 vs 0.7 dispossessions. That's not to say that Meunier is a silky player, in particular he could be calmer when the opposition presses him well, but at least this season one can rely on him to deliver 6/10 or 7/10 performances, while providing the occasional good cross.

And that relatively mediocre but reliable baseline gives Dortmund the opportunity to see how Morey will come back from his injury, whether Knauff can be an option after his loan or to ease in a young player.

To every transfer there is a financial dimension. Dortmund didn't loan Pongracic, because they thought he'd be a starter, but because Corona left them no money in the budget and they needed depth. You've named three players for a combined fee of €27m, against the out of contract Meunier. One is a LB with plenty of weaknesses himself, one is a CB and the other is a RB, who cost €10m upfront and may turn out to be a good player, but I also read an interview with him where he said he basically didn't have to defend at Celtic and it was a huge adjustment in Germany.

When Dortmund signed Meunier the status quo was that they had just played a 39 point "Rückrunde" (despite phoning it in at the end), they had Sancho in his last year and Hummels, Reus and Witsel at the age of 31, Hakimi's loan had ended, the expectation for the season was to put together a genuine title challenge. And then you come in and ask: well why did they sign the experienced player, why didn't they get some kid from Celtic and write of the RB position for 6-12 months?

Proven players are just a tiny bit less likely to feck up than talents. When you can get multiple talents for one proven player, I guess it evens out. Especially because you also always have talents who hit the ground running.

In the real world you can only play one player at a time, which means you won't find and convince several cheap but promising talents for the same position to join you at the same time. It also means that you can't just plug them in and out of the team, because they need playing time to develop and your team needs a certain amount of consistency to build cohesion, so you have to commit to certain players.

And there's a difference between keeping an experienced spine around and implementing an experienced spine. It simply doesn't work, there's always the risk of failure if you rip a proven player out of his familiar environment. It's just the illusion of a guarantee.

Stick to the development of young players, you have the capacities to still have a better team than the rest of the league bar Bayern by that alone. Some will figure out that Dortmund is their ceiling, they can become your new spine. Some will leave but the better the salaries you can afford, the longer they will stay. And the longer they stay, the longer the time of talent cycle x and cycle x+1 overlaps.

Every transfer carries a risk and arguably young players more than older players.

And regarding the second paragraph, you're basically talking about writing off a couple of years, when the idea that Dortmund have certain short term ambitions and are the team that wants to win the titles when Bayern feck up is what they attract sponsors, fans and players with.

 

[Zehner]

So you think a supposedly "mindblowing" player being benched for teenagers and Marius Wolf is just something that happens. A misunderstanding.

I don't know why he was benched. What I say is that he had exceptional performances. He also became quite shit after them again, like many Dortmund players And I'm saying the whole transfer was a mess from the very beginning. When Zorc said to cameras that they got a variable player with Brandt shortly after the transfer became public, I knew this would blow up eventually. The very idea that Brandt could be played variably speaksnof bad scouting on Dortmund's part.

The irony of course is that Julian Brandt himself is a master of the unnecessary turnover and actually ahead of Meunier in whoscored's feckup metrics, such as 2.5 vs 1.7 unsuccessful touches and 1.2 vs 0.7 dispossessions.

Maybe Dortmund's scouts also looked on a sheet like this but make no mistake, Meunier is truly terrible. And I'm not discussing if he's worse than Brandt with you, I'm sorry. At some point you have to draw the line.

That's not to say that Meunier is a silky player, in particular he could be calmer when the opposition presses him well, but at least this season one can rely on him to deliver 6/10 or 7/10 performances, while providing the occasional good cross.

6/10 or 7/10?! Holy.What's your rating for an actually good right back? 20/10?

And that relatively mediocre but reliable baseline gives Dortmund the opportunity to see how Morey will come back from his injury, whether Knauff can be an option after his loan or to ease in a young player.

So the thinking went "Meunier might be expensive, but at least he's not very good so that he would stand in the way of the talent who might have messed up his knee permanently when he was just about to get into the starting line up"?

To every transfer there is a financial dimension. Dortmund didn't loan Pongracic, because they thought he'd be a starter, but because Corona left them no money in the budget and they needed depth. You've named three players for a combined fee of €27m, against the out of contract Meunier. One is a LB with plenty of weaknesses himself, one is a CB and the other is a RB, who cost €10m upfront and may turn out to be a good player, but I also read an interview with him where he said he basically didn't have to defend at Celtic and it was a huge adjustment in Germany.

Yes, every transfer has a financial dimension and that Dortmund has to play Pongracic might have to do with them paying the top salaries to players who miss 30% of the season and paying big salaries to Can and Meunier, for example.

And Frimpong is actually an excellent example. He came from Celtic and it took him 6 months to became a signficantly better RB than Meunier. There are never guarantees. We see it so often that young players hit the ground running while supposed save bets become failures. You have to live with that risk and instead of severely limiting your budget by signing elite club rejects who have been rejected for a reason and already proved they aren't good enough for your ambitions yet still are on elite salaries is a save way to limit your budget severely. Especially since you can't even move them on.

When Dortmund signed Meunier the status quo was that they had just played a 39 point "Rückrunde" (despite phoning it in at the end), they had Sancho in his last year and Hummels, Reus and Witsel at the age of 31, Hakimi's loan had ended, the expectation for the season was to put together a genuine title challenge. And then you come in and ask: well why did they sign the experienced player, why didn't they get some kid from Celtic and write of the RB position for 6-12 months?

Yes. Sounds less ridiculous than signing Meunier to put up a title challenge. Especially as Hakimi's replacement. They aren't even similar in terms of player type, let alone quality.

In the real world you can only play one player at a time, which means you won't find and convince several cheap but promising talents for the same position to join you at the same time. It also means that you can't just plug them in and out of the team, because they need playing time to develop and your team needs a certain amount of consistency to build cohesion, so you have to commit to certain players.



Every transfer carries a risk and arguably young players more than older players.

And regarding the second paragraph, you're basically talking about writing off a couple of years, when the idea that Dortmund have certain short term ambitions and are the team that wants to win the titles when Bayern feck up is what they attract sponsors, fans and players with.

Yes, arguably

And no, I'm not talking about writing off whole years. I'm talking about signing somebody who could be good enough to replace Hakimi instead of someone who proved he's not. The latter sounds more like a write off to me

 

[do.ob]

I don't know why he was benched. What I say is that he had exceptional performances. He also became quite shit after them again, like many Dortmund players And I'm saying the whole transfer was a mess from the very beginning. When Zorc said to cameras that they got a variable player with Brandt shortly after the transfer became public, I knew this would blow up eventually. The very idea that Brandt could be played variably speaksnof bad scouting on Dortmund's part.

Maybe Dortmund's scouts also looked on a sheet like this but make no mistake, Meunier is truly terrible. And I'm not discussing if he's worse than Brandt with you, I'm sorry. At some point you have to draw the line.

6/10 or 7/10?! Holy.What's your rating for an actually good right back? 20/10?

So the thinking went "Meunier might be expensive, but at least he's not very good so that he would stand in the way of the talent who might have messed up his knee permanently when he was just about to get into the starting line up"?

Yes, every transfer has a financial dimension and that Dortmund has to play Pongracic might have to do with them paying the top salaries to players who miss 30% of the season and paying big salaries to Can and Meunier, for example.

And Frimpong is actually an excellent example. He came from Celtic and it took him 6 months to became a signficantly better RB than Meunier. There are never guarantees. We see it so often that young players hit the ground running while supposed save bets become failures. You have to live with that risk and instead of severely limiting your budget by signing elite club rejects who have been rejected for a reason and already proved they aren't good enough for your ambitions yet still are on elite salaries is a save way to limit your budget severely. Especially since you can't even move them on.

Yes. Sounds less ridiculous than signing Meunier to put up a title challenge. Especially as Hakimi's replacement. They aren't even similar in terms of player type, let alone quality.

What's your problem with Meunier? He's been a regular for PSG, he's a regular for Belgium and he's a regular for Dortmund now. He's not a star player, but he's not that one-legged monster you paint him as. I brought up the disposession stats, because on one hand you reduce Meunier entirely to his unnecessary turnovers but when talking abut Brandt, for whom they are a major problem, you just ignore them. As well of course as reducing all his problems to some quote from Zorc, who hasn't even coached him, from free years ago.

And the logic behind Meunier is pretty simple: the club wanted to find someone who could help immediately, they had little money to spend, Favre in general favours a back four and the team wasn't entirely convincing defensively. So they got an experienced RB with a more defensively sound profile. And now that he's already part of the team the club want to keep him, because like I said, there is value in players that are relatively consistent: you know he's not great, but you can also assume that he won't spoil things.

Yes, arguably

And no, I'm not talking about writing off whole years. I'm talking about signing somebody who could be good enough to replace Hakimi instead of someone who proved he's not. The latter sounds more like a write off to me

"implementing an experienced spine. It simply doesn't work" + "Stick to the development of young players" + "Dortmund wouldve been better off by now if they signed a player like this and give them 6-12 months to settle in?" = years at a time written off to letting kids settle in.

 

[Zehner]

What's your problem with Meunier? He's been a regular for PSG, he's a regular for Belgium and he's a regular for Dortmund now. He's not a star player, but he's not that one-legged monster you paint him as. I brought up the disposession stats, because on one hand you reduce Meunier entirely to his unnecessary turnovers but when talking abut Brandt, for whom they are a major problem, you just ignore them. As well of course as reducing all his problems to some quote from Zorc, who hasn't even coached him, from free years ago.

And the logic behind Meunier is pretty simple: the club wanted to find someone who could help immediately, they had little money to spend, Favre in general favours a back four and the team wasn't entirely convincing defensively. So they got an experienced RB with a more defensively sound profile. And now that he's already part of the team the club want to keep him, because like I said, there is value in players that are relatively consistent: you know he's not great, but you can also assume that he won't spoil things.

I've got nothing against him, I'm not involved enough for that But I've seen many games by Meunier that he definitely spoilt so as a Dortmund fan I'd probably be on the fence. That aside, the guy is an embodiment of what I perceive as terrible transfer strategies that only consider the curriculum, not the actual player. Can is a child of the same train of thought. Fans will always call for experience as if there's a guarantee that the player delivers but that's actually not the case. I mean, what was the calculus behind signing those players aside from "they played for top clubs, they have to be good"? They possess literally no redeeming quality of Dortmund's style of play.

And chances are that such transfers are even riskier than talents in the greater scheme of things. Because if they fail, you can't move them on and they sit out their enormous salary.

"implementing an experienced spine. It simply doesn't work" + "Stick to the development of young players" + "Dortmund wouldve been better off by now if they signed a player like this and give them 6-12 months to settle in?" = years at a time written off to letting kids settle in.

Every player needs to settle in so why not trust a talent with a much higher ceiling, then?

Save the millions and millions wasted on Can, Meunier and co. and use it to raise the salary level so that you can hold onto top talents longer. Prolong the cycle and accept it when the market offers you no immediate improvements.

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

I will be in Europe in April, and want to watch Munich v Dortmund Anyone know where I can buy tickets now? I am getting 2 tickets for about 700GBP on footballticket.net, is that legit?

 

[Kasper]

Türkgücü officially withdrawing from the 3rd division. With all their games null and voided there's a solid shakeup at the top with 1860 suddenly in great striking distance for promotion.

 

[Dans]

Türkgücü officially withdrawing from the 3rd division. With all their games null and voided there's a solid shakeup at the top with 1860 suddenly in great striking distance for promotion.

Serves them right (even the mercenary players to some extent)

 

[Piratesoup]

I will be in Europe in April, and want to watch Munich v Dortmund Anyone know where I can buy tickets now? I am getting 2 tickets for about 700GBP on footballticket.net, is that legit?

700 pounds for two Bundesliga tickets? That sounds completely insane to me.

 

[Dans]

700 pounds for two Bundesliga tickets? That sounds completely insane to me.

Yes it is.........you could probably buy one outside the ground from a scalper for far less.

 

[Tacitus56AD]

I will be in Europe in April, and want to watch Munich v Dortmund Anyone know where I can buy tickets now? I am getting 2 tickets for about 700GBP on footballticket.net, is that legit?

You should be able to get them for way less. Check out Bayerns website: https://fcbayern.com/en/tickets

They even warn fans about the site you plan on using:

"We are pleased about the continued very high demand for all FC Bayern matches from our members, fan clubs and all fans! Thank you very much!

Unfortunately, ticket offers are often available on unauthorised internet platforms and from the numerous unofficial ticket agencies advertising mainly on the internet. Often, they charge much higher prices (you can find the original ticket prices here).



We would therefore like to warn you at this point!



Only tickets purchased directly from Bayern Munich ticket service can be guaranteed to be valid tickets with access authorisation.

The unauthorised resale of a ticket, on the other hand, generally leads to the ticket becoming invalid.

Unfortunately, many websites offer tickets that do not entitle the holder to enter the Allianz Arena or, in many cases, are not delivered at all after payment. We therefore strongly advise you not to buy tickets from unauthorised platforms, e.g.



viagogo

StubHub

eBay

footballtickets

to purchase tickets to our matches, as these are always unauthorised sellers."

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

700 pounds for two Bundesliga tickets? That sounds completely insane to me.

You should be able to get them for way less. Check out Bayerns website: https://fcbayern.com/en/tickets

They even warn fans about the site you plan on using:

"We are pleased about the continued very high demand for all FC Bayern matches from our members, fan clubs and all fans! Thank you very much!

Unfortunately, ticket offers are often available on unauthorised internet platforms and from the numerous unofficial ticket agencies advertising mainly on the internet. Often, they charge much higher prices (you can find the original ticket prices here).



We would therefore like to warn you at this point!



Only tickets purchased directly from Bayern Munich ticket service can be guaranteed to be valid tickets with access authorisation.

The unauthorised resale of a ticket, on the other hand, generally leads to the ticket becoming invalid.

Unfortunately, many websites offer tickets that do not entitle the holder to enter the Allianz Arena or, in many cases, are not delivered at all after payment. We therefore strongly advise you not to buy tickets from unauthorised platforms, e.g.



viagogo

StubHub

eBay

footballtickets

to purchase tickets to our matches, as these are always unauthorised sellers."

It's overbooked on the official site, as expected. And I am skeptical of third-party resale tickets.
If I don't get these tickets, I have to change my entire itinerary and go for PSG-Marseille or Napoli-Roma.

 

[do.ob]

Bild claim to have gotten a hold of Gladbach's shopping list:


That's looking like they will have to go all the way back to square one and then some. For the past 10 years Eberl had them running like a model of stability, but even though they are probably still far better off than before he took over, it's hard to describe his legacy as anything other than a train wreck.

 

[Hansi Fick]

It's overbooked on the official site, as expected. And I am skeptical of third-party resale tickets.
If I don't get these tickets, I have to change my entire itinerary and go for PSG-Marseille or Napoli-Roma.

The third-party resale tickets are on paper illegal, or let's say unauthorized, as Bayern have their official second hand market, where prices are regulated as the official price plus a 15% re-sale fee.
So according to that the official resale price for the very best category tickes should not surpass somthing like 80 € (70€ are the most expensive tickets for BuLi).
The official resale site is here https://tickets.fcbayern.com/internetverkaufzweitmarkt/EventList.aspx but there are none available for the BVB game, unsurprisingly.

Of course, third-party sales are still thriving, especially for a game as instantly sold out as against BVB, and they're going to go for higher.

 

[do.ob]

Q: Are you perhaps a bit afraid about your newfound freedom [retirement]:

A: Not at all, since I had time to brace myself. Three things I can promise I will definitely not start, just because I'm going to have more time. In the end I will always keep my classicaly-manly attitude and thus refuse the womanly drink Latte Macchiato. Secondly: I will under no circumstances start doing Yoga. And thirdly: I won't wear he helmet while cylcing, but keep trusting my Eddy Merckx commemoration hat. (laughs)

Rudi Völler, caricature.

 

[do.ob]

The Dutch players were so impressed with him, they tried to swap shirts all game long. Also perhaps not the best sign for the team's build up if your 18 year old CM has to do so much individualistic stuff in midfield.

 

[ForEverEleven]

Gündogan apparently just isnt that player. Based on his recent appearances for the N11, I would seriously consider if I would even nominate him for the World Cup.

 

[Zehner]

Yeah, you just can't trust those guys playing for City, Chelsea, etc. The EPL just seriously inflates their level and it goes to show when they play against real opposition.

On a more serious note, Gündogan is a terrific player but in the right setup. I'didn't like how Löw set up the team after WC 2018 at all. I want a bit more total football from us. Most top German coaches have adapted many of Cruyff's principles anyway these days and Flick did so at Bayern as well.

 

[do.ob]

I don't think the side looked particularly cohesive in general. A state which naturally benefits dribblers like Musiala and Sane and hurts more strategic players like Gündogan or Müller. But having said that I don't really see the need to include a defensive liability like Gündogan when Flick has players like Kimmich and Goretzka at his disposal. Die Mannschaft is not going to achieve total dominance like a typical Guardiola team, they have struggled to methodically break down defenses for years, too, so accepting those facts I think the bare minimum requirement for each player is that they can execute a good pressing game.

 

[Zehner]

I don't think the side looked particularly cohesive in general. A state which naturally benefits dribblers like Musiala and Sane and hurts more strategic players like Gündogan or Müller. But having said that I don't really see the need to include a defensive liability like Gündogan when Flick has players like Kimmich and Goretzka at his disposal. Die Mannschaft is not going to achieve total dominance like a typical Guardiola team, they have struggled to methodically break down defenses for years, too, so accepting those facts I think the bare minimum requirement for each player is that they can execute a good pressing game.

Why not?

Personally, I'd pick Gündogan ahead of Goretzka every day of the week if given the choice. That's not to say Goretzka is bad but I think someone like Gündogan can be much more valuable in the right setup. Especially since he's also a presence in the box since last season at least.

 

[do.ob]

Why not?

Personally, I'd pick Gündogan ahead of Goretzka every day of the week if given the choice. That's not to say Goretzka is bad but I think someone like Gündogan can be much more valuable in the right setup. Especially since he's also a presence in the box since last season at least.

Because it's extremely difficult to achieve at the best of times, let alone during the time a NT coach gets with his team and neither is Flick Guardiola, nor is the squad a great fit for such an approach (striker, FBs, holding mid, CBs are missing). Odds are you'll end up with a team that is ineffective up top and vulnerable at the back. In comparison it's much easier to build a cohesive more direct team.

 

[Zehner]

Because it's extremely difficult to achieve at the best of times, let alone during the time a NT coach gets with his team and neither is Flick Guardiola, nor is the squad a great fit for such an approach (striker, FBs, holding mid, CBs are missing). Odds are you'll end up with a team that is ineffective up top and vulnerable at the back. In comparison it's much easier to build a cohesive more direct team.

Spain and to a lesser extent Italy play such a style at national level rather successfully last year. I believe one shouldn't be so focused on the players since lots of it is instructions. That being said, there are still many players who suite the style very well. Havertz as a false 9, Kimmich and Gündogan as CMs, Schlotterbeck as CB, Raum as an attacking full back, fast runners in behind with Gnabry, Sane and Werner. With Süle a relatively and technically sound CB. Sweeper keepers with good ball control and passing in Neuer and Ter Stegen. Technically brillant and quick minded talents in Wirtz and Musiala who can play in midfield as well as in attack. I don't think that pressing and transition football is better suited to those players. Most of them are used to possession styles anyway. And Bayern themselves played like this under Flick.

 

[Blackwidow]

Because it's extremely difficult to achieve at the best of times, let alone during the time a NT coach gets with his team and neither is Flick Guardiola, nor is the squad a great fit for such an approach (striker, FBs, holding mid, CBs are missing). Odds are you'll end up with a team that is ineffective up top and vulnerable at the back. In comparison it's much easier to build a cohesive more direct team.

I prefer Goretzka over Gündogan in a knockout tournament. Better defensively, makes good runs, is good in the air. It is for sure not about ball possession or "pretty" football...

I even think with Havertz as no. 9, Müller and Goretzka you even can play successful crosses from open play...

There is not much time until the World Cup - that is why I would for sure build on a Bayern midfield + Sane and Gnabry.

Especially against Spain... You will not win the ball possession match...

 

[do.ob]

I prefer Goretzka over Gündogan in a knockout tournament. Better defensively, makes good runs, is good in the air. It is for sure not about ball possession or "pretty" football...

I even think with Havertz as no. 9, Müller and Goretzka you even can play successful crosses from open play...

There is not much time until the World Cup - that is why I would for sure build on a Bayern midfield + Sane and Gnabry.

Especially against Spain... You will not win the ball possession match...

I wouldn't even say it's close. Goretzka offers so much more than Gündogan defensively, while still being a decent footballer and he's used to playing with Kimmich and the other Bayern players at club level. As it was already for Löw, the biggest question for Flick personnel wise will be back 3 or 4 and how he wants to approach the lack of a conventional striker.

 

[kaiser1]

Who will be the Right back?

RB--Schloterbeck--Rudiger--Raum
--------Kimmich------Goretzka
------------------Muller
--Gnabry------Kai----Sane

 

[hasanejaz88]

Who will be the Right back?

RB--Schloterbeck--Rudiger--Raum
--------Kimmich------Goretzka
------------------Muller
--Gnabry------Kai----Sane

Kehrer

 

[do.ob]

Who will be the Right back?

RB--Schloterbeck--Rudiger--Raum
--------Kimmich------Goretzka
------------------Muller
--Gnabry------Kai----Sane

See that's the problem that Germany often have. We pretend our LWB is a LB and don't really know who should play RB at all, but we go like that to into the tournament hoping for the best.

It's a bit moot doing this on paper, but I think a natural line up would be something like this:
-----------------------Neuer
--------linho---Schlotterbeck--Rüdiger
Hofmann--Kimmich-Goretzka--Raum(Gosens)
---------------Müller-----------Sane
--------------------------Havertz

Depending on form we can talk about some of the other candidates in attacking midfield, playing Havertz upfront is of course more hope than certainty at this point and Hofmann as R(W)B hasn't been tested yet either, but I think this makes sense in a lot of ways, Sülinho, Schlotterbeck and Rüdiger all play in a back three at club level, Rüdiger and Sülinho in particular seem most comfortable in their wide(r) roles that allow them to be more adventurous. They are also all fairly good on the ball. He probably doesn't have a future with Flick anymore, but theoretically Hummels could also be an option in such a setup. The back three gives a lot of cover without needing careful organization that often failed die Mannschaft in recent tournaments, it allows Raum/Gosens to play high up the pitch, like they do best and it allows Flick to use someone that contributes to the attack on the right, instead of just playing a random CB there who does next to nothing beyond the halfway line.

 

[uamini]

Hamburg's 2nd Bundesliga woes continue, currently down 0:2 against Paderborn..

2018/19: 37 points in the first half of the season (1st), 19 points in the second half (15th) - 4th overall
2019/20: 30 points in the first half of the season (2nd), 24 points in the second half (7h) - 4th overall
2020/21: 36 points in the first half of the season (1st), 22 points in the second half (10th) - 4th overall
2021/22: 29 points in the first half of the season (3rd), 13 points in the second half (13th) - currently in 6th place, with 7 games to go and a 9 point deficit

It's so weird to see them turn into a perennial 2. Bundesliga club.

 

[hellhunter]

Hamburg's 2nd Bundesliga woes continue, currently down 0:2 against Paderborn..

2018/19: 37 points in the first half of the season (1st), 19 points in the second half (15th) - 4th overall
2019/20: 30 points in the first half of the season (2nd), 24 points in the second half (7h) - 4th overall
2020/21: 36 points in the first half of the season (1st), 22 points in the second half (10th) - 4th overall
2021/22: 29 points in the first half of the season (3rd), 13 points in the second half (13th) - currently in 6th place, with 7 games to go and a 9 point deficit

It's so weird to see them turn into a perennial 2. Bundesliga club.

It's beautiful, feck them

 

[uamini]

It's beautiful, feck them

..and if St. Pauli somehow gets promoted that would be the ultimate insult.
The very same thing could happen to Hertha, suddenly finding themselves a league below their smaller competitor from the same city.
How often has this happened in Bundesliga history? I remember Blau Weiß 90 briefly doing it to Hertha but other than that?

 

[hellhunter]

..and if St. Pauli somehow gets promoted that would be the ultimate insult.
The very same thing could happen to Hertha, suddenly finding themselves a league below their smaller competitor from the same city.
How often has this happened in Bundesliga history? I remember Blau Weiß 90 briefly doing it to Hertha but other than that?

1860 being a founding member of the Bundesliga while Bayern was playing a tier below comes to mind

 

[uamini]

1860 being a founding member of the Bundesliga while Bayern was playing a tier below comes to mind

Yeah, thought about that too but 1860 wasn't necessarily the smaller club at that point. In a way one could argue that 1860 getting relegated and falling behind Bayern is the better analogy.

 

[do.ob]

Since crowd restrictions have finally be lifted today will actually be the first time Bellingham (and lots of other players of course) gets to play in a sold out stadium, or even in front of their club's ultras, since most groups decided to adopted an "all of us allowed or no one" stance. And an evening game against Leipzig is of course a good fixture to fire people up, even in normal times. This is going to be an amazing atmosphere, only the team can ruin it

 

[hellhunter]

Did I hear that correctly? Bayern messing up a sub and playing with 12 men for a short period? About 20s apparently, but still.

 

[Tacitus56AD]

Did I hear that correctly? Bayern messing up a sub and playing with 12 men for a short period? About 20s apparently, but still.

No you did not. The refs did not wait for coman to leave before letting on a 12th player for 17seconds. So not Bayern but the refs messed up.
The refs should have given Coman a yellow card, there is actually a rule for that. So the refs messed up twice.