To be honest he mostly mumbled on in his French accent without really saying anything or answering questions. Almost like he didn't understand the questions, though I doubt that was the case. I think he wants to win games, it's just that he doesn't project an ounce of confidence or ambition. Nagelsmann treated his team like they were in a title race in early 2020, even when Bayern and Dortmund had already recovered. That's what's needed when you want to be larger than the sum of your parts and go out and beat the odds. Favre was the opposite: We want to win, but a draw isn't the end of the world...
German Football 20/21
- Thread starter do.ob
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To be honest he mostly mumbled on in his French accent without really saying anything or answering questions. Almost like he didn't understand the questions, though I doubt that was the case. I think he wants to win games, it's just that he doesn't project an ounce of confidence or ambition. Nagelsmann treated his team like they were in a title race in early 2020, even when Bayern and Dortmund had already recovered. That's what's needed when you want to be larger than the sum of your parts and go out and beat the odds. Favre was the opposite: We want to win, but a draw isn't the end of the world...
Does anyone have some perspective of how Boss is doing at Leverkusen? I've seen @Adnan mention him a few times, but he's still flying under the radar a bit. They're top of the league now and topped their EL group with just one loss, despite having lost Havertz and Volland. Are they just lucky, for example by having had a light schedule or exceeding their xG; or is this sustainable? If the latter, could anyone describe what Boss is doing that's working so well over there? (@Zehner?)
He had a very good first half season when he took over Leverkusen mid-season, then he had a mediocre half season after losing Brandt, then he had a fairly good second half of the season and the current season speaks for itself I guess. He plays dominant attacking football with very daring pressing. His philosophy covers all phases of play, though at times it can be too daring. They have the necessary amount of luck in crucial situations at the moment and they probably should be a bit lower than they are currently, but I'd say their success is still the well earned fruits of a methodical approach rather than just dumb luck.
The fact that he's "already" in his late 50s and his disaster at Dortmund make him fly under the radar currently. There isn't really a market for him at the moment, if his past was clean I could have seen him high up Dortmund's short list as well. He's not exactly eloquent with the media and think that would be an issue at a bigger club than Leverkusen, as journalists founds it easy to poke holes into him while things turned south at Dortmund. Gladbach would probably like to sign him if Rose does leave and he'd be a natural successor to Nagelsmann at Leipzig, if they can't turn up the next coaching Mozart by then.
If that user meant Berlin ca. 15 years ago, I agree (and it makes sense in context). I don't think Nice really compares, despite a temporary high in L1. I know Gladbach's situation before the miracle rescue of 2011, of course. But after all, the club went on to be a CL/EL spot contender for the majority of Favre's stint, and has confirmed that status since, despite some probably inevitable bumps. (Huge credit certainly going to Eberl.)
Anyway, stuff like that is a bit subjective, I just found it odd that Gladbach wasn't mentioned.
Not really comparable, imo. Favre stayed at Gladbach for about 4,5 years, and managed a full rebuild after losing the initial team's core, ultimately confirming the rank of a top 4 contender. And the 14/15 Gladbach team was better than the 11/12 one in my eyes, so it's a different trajectory. The end was a total collapse, that's true.
Obvious decision after the so-and-so development was followed by a massive nosedive.
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At Dortmund he had a bad run between the end of his first and the first half of his second season and he came back quite impressively as well. To be honest the post you're quoting reads like someone who still hasn't forgiven Favre for his improvised presser. He's a good coach, just not a great one and he probably won't have to wait too long for offers.
I probably worded this wrong, I don't mean he wasn't backed in terms of investment. I meant that while they did stand by him after earlier bad spells, as you write, they did so in a noticeably reserved manner. At least that's the impression I was getting.
I absolutely agree about the bold part, and that's also in part what I meant with authority. The players need to be convinced that the coach knows how to set them up well and improve them (their careers), but they also need to see the proof of success in training and in games. And then, a good reputation can mean the burden of proof is not immediately there, or lower, as its connected to what the coach achieved with/for his players before.
For example, I don't think Ancelotti was rejected by our squad in record time (his first season was quite successful after all), I think the players responded to him well initially, but we let Paul Clement go in midseason and after that my guess is the standard of training got worse, what with Ancelotti putting his son in charge. And that's when our players, used to a high standard in training from Pep, started to worry. Among other things.
But yeah, it is obvious that Nagelsmann is uniquely infectious, or convincing, as both coach and motivator, and that's the aura surrounding the best managers.
Still he arguably needed, and needs, to build up a certain reputation and authority, a myth if you will, or a certain gravitas, before taking over a job at the biggest clubs. Because at those there might be forces at play that can easily be bigger than the brightness and plausibility of a talented young coach's ideas. Which is also why he probably was smart to decide against a move from Hoffenheim straight to Real, if that story is true.
Rose next summer sounds like a very good move (just wonder at what point the footballing public will catch up to the fact that BVB's bullying of Gladbach is easily as bad as the usual accusations towards Bayern's grip on the competition), he seems like an outstanding manager and a very likeable guy.
Is he a better manager than Pochettino? I think Poch's achievement at Spurs are not to be underrated, even if hiring him would present obstacles and problems. Rose certainly has not a better record than that. But you're right in that those obstacles might make it too risky an appointment for the taste of the board.
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I mean until his sacking you basically didn't hear a bad word about Favre from Dortmund's officials, mere minutes before the news broke Bild claimed they were desperate to finish the season with him. I think what you've picked up is just the inherent dissonance between Dortmund's ambition and Favre's football/character.
I don't follow Bayern closely enough to argue in detail about this, but when you're a managerial god, like Ancelotti was at the time he took over Bayern after winning La Decima and you actually win the double and make a CL semi in your first season, which is a good haul, even at Bayern, and still the cracks start to appear soon-ish, then that's an incredible timetable for a job-ending crisis.
Regarding Nagelsmann I'd also say that any coach needs to make some experiences himself. The game in Manchester is an example. He tried something brave and got burned (very) badly for it. It's okay at Leipzig, because he's the star, but if something like that happened to him at a true top club it would put a public question mark behind his work that could eventually even escalate into a sacking. Bosz made such an experience in Dortmund, when he tried to force his high line pressing on a team that wasn't ready for it and got rewarded with a downward spiral that cost him his job. At Leverkusen he was more pragmatic from the get go and got rewarded with a good amount of stability.
Dortmund have been bullying Leverkusen for years, hijacking a hand shake deal with Sokratis, snapping up countless players Leverkusen were trying to sign, because both clubs are fishing in similar waters, trying to sign Kießling as a Lewandowski replacement, trying to poach S. Lewandowski for their youth setup (thank god that didn't work out), signing Castro, Torpak and Brand sniffing around Tah and Bellarabi (I'm beginning to see a pattern here
). Havertz supposedly might have been a possible target as a Sancho replacement as well in an alternate reality without Covid. The thing is no one cares, except for Leverkusen fans, who probably hate Dortmund more than they hate Cologne by now. It's just not a narrative the media wants to milk.Poch's achievements are bigger than Rose's but he's also coached a far wealthier club. A bit apples and oranges: how much will Rose's football scale with better funding, how would Pochettino deal in a new league and culture? How well would either coach deal with the pressure of having to mount a title challenge? It's all a bunch of guess work.
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Which part were you disagreeing with?
I see a lot of similarities in the way his Hertha, Gladbach and Nice stints ended.
Hertha: a 4th place finish in 08/09 followed by a disastrous start to the 09/10 season with 6 losses in a row after winning the opener, including a 0:4 home loss to Freiburg and a 1:5 defeat in his final game in Hoffenheim.
Gladbach: a 3rd place finish in 14/15 followed by a disastrous start to the 15/16 season with 6 losses in a row, including a 0:4 defeat in Dortmund, a 0:3 home loss against HSV and a 0:3 CL loss in Sevilla.
Nice: a 3rd place finish in 16/17 followed by a very poor first half of the 17/18 season that culminated in a 0:5 home loss against Lyon and a drop to 18th place after 14 matches. Nice decided to not fire him and his team slightly recovered, even though it failed to grab a CL spot.
Sure, Dortmund's situation isn't as dire (even though those heavy losses seem to be a recurring theme right before Favre gets fired) but that's also because their squad is just too good to fall as hard as his previous clubs.
And this is not a debate about whether or not he's a good coach, he obviously is, but his flaws can't be overlooked.
For starters he didn't drop off at Nice or Hertha out of nothing. At both clubs he had terrific first season and the following summer - instead of building on that success - they lost key players without proper replacements. At Berlin it was Pantelic, Voronin and Simunic that summer, their two star attackers and their chief of defense.
At Gladbach he had four good seasons, a long time by almost any coach's standards. There isn't much of a pattern here and if there weren't the issues with the bigger picture at Dortmund he might not have been sacked yet either.
I'm sure if you look through most sackings you will find heavy defeats towards the end, especially if they build up a lot of credit to burn through beforehand and even then: Nice didn't sack him ("failed to grab a CL spot is probably also a hot take, given that as far as I know Favre was the only coach to ever achieve that with them) and at Dortmund it was a string of meh performances with one big bang at the end rather than a full on collapse.
At Berlin and Nice he didn't cope well with his squad being taken apart.
At Gladbach he burned out in his fifth season.
At Dortmund he couldn't meet the club's title ambitions.
You know the world has gone tits up when Leverkusen and Tottenham are top of the Bundesliga and Premier League in December. End of days.
He's doing great. As do.ob said, his first half season was exceptional and probably the best football I've seen us play and I'm following football since ~2001. The second season started disappointing and ended very well and now we're almost looking as good as with Brandt and Havertz in the line up. Possibly the most remarkable thing is that every Leverkusen fan expected a dull season from us since our big transfers of the last window were pretty shit and we lost Volland and Havertz on top of it. On top of that we're in a terrible injury crises with some of the most important players out for multiple months.
Still, we're currently playing great and you really see Bosz' handwriting. Great possession play with lots of movement between the lines, runs behind the defense and nice passing sequences. He also recently signed a Dutch set piece expert for his coaching team and that turned from our biggest weaknesses to a strength. He also got players like Amiri and especially playing really well after many had already written them off due to terrible performances.
Personally, I favor the style of Bosz over Nagelsmann and Rose who are more focused on pressing and transition play. Bosz tries to play a more demanding attacking style that IMO is much more suited for top clubs. In a way, Bosz plays as if he has the better players at hand and tries to see through his idea and dominate the game regardless of the opponent while Nagelsmann and Rose sometimes apply "underdog tactics" in which you prefer quick transitions but leave the control to the opponent trying to utilize spaces they expose after mistakes.
Dortmund have been bullying Leverkusen for years, hijacking a hand shake deal with Sokratis, snapping up countless players Leverkusen were trying to sign, because both clubs are fishing in similar waters, trying to sign Kießling as a Lewandowski replacement, trying to poach S. Lewandowski for their youth setup (thank god that didn't work out), signing Castro, Torpak and Brand sniffing around Tah and Bellarabi (I'm beginning to see a pattern here
Poch's achievements are bigger than Rose's but he's also coached a far wealthier club. A bit apples and oranges: how much will Rose's football scale with better funding, how would Pochettino deal in a new league and culture? How well would either coach deal with the pressure of having to mount a title challenge? It's all a bunch of guess work.
Think you're a bit over the top here. I don't think Leverkusen fans despise Dortmund more than other competitors and even less so because of the transfer deals. Sure, there are many who dislike Dortmund but that is because a) you're more likely to have differing opinions with fans of clubs with similar ambitions and b) many Dortmund fans have become quite arrogant in recent years and like belittling other clubs.
But until Brandt there wasn't really any ill blood. Castro and Toprak were generally seen as acceptable losses/opportunities to improve the squad and a transition process. Brandt did really hurt since many Leverkusen fans didn't really want to accept that Dortmund by now resides comfortable above us in the pecking order.
But yes, Dortmund can't really complain. I think part of the reason why this doesn't get more attention since the other clubs aren't really competitors for Dortmund, the club is at least an order of magnitude bigger than Leverkusen and Leipzig. But when Bayern started picking Dortmund apart, there was legit hope that they could finally become a rival on eye level after they took two league titles away from then and looked like they could continue their series. Bayer signing Götze, followed by Lewandowski and Hummels was a real demonstration of power. Wasn't really the case with Toprak, Castro, Hazard etc.
So Favre wasn't the "The new Klopp"
Well, Frankfurt are in total control against Monchengladbach at the moment with a 3-1 scoreline. Monchengladbach have barely looked threatening, and it's quite obvious that Frankfurt are the fresher and sharper side at the moment.
The pick of the goals:
The pick of the goals:
I guess this was inevitable, but oh boy, I'm expecting the hype to really blow up now.
He had some decent moments (especiall against Cologne), but he's mostly looked his age until now. I think for people who haven't paid close attention to his senior games it might actually be a sobering watch.
As expected. Moukoko is massively talented, but he still has to get used to playing against veterans of the game. Now that the games are coming thick and fast, however, Dortmund has no choice but to make use of everyone in their squad.
Hattrick incoming
Ouch,
One problem I'm seeing with Monchengladbach right now (and what they typically have problems with) is their overall lack of patience in their build-ups. They tend to play quite direct and prefer to bring the ball forward quickly. On several occasions, however, the players aren't set up for a quick transition, but the players don't tend to slow down their build-up. The exception to that is when Neuhaus gets on the ball as he tends to have better control of the tempo than other players. Still, in general, Rose likes his teams to build up relatively quickly, which does leave them open to the counter on several occasions.
There's an interesting dynamic at Gladbach right now:
Two days ago everyone loved Rose, their league results were a bit disappointing, but people were understanding, because of their great CL campaign, tight schedule and thin squad.
But with today's loss top 4 is basically gone unless Dortmund implode. From what I read between the lines Rose does have a release clause in his contract and refuses to make any kind of commitment to Gladbach. If you browse their forum you already see lots of fans who are angry at the situation and disappointed with Rose (on a human level). Fans not being able to express themselves in the stands takes away the immediate edge, but I don't think it'll be long before the press asks questions like "is his head still in Gladbach?".
Yeah. They aren't very good at dominating possession and controlling games with the ball. Playing direct is how they find space. That's easily the biggest question mark about Rose. On the other hand that, too, can be at least partially put down to the players he's got as his disposal and Kloppwasn't held back too badly by a similar deficit either. It's the first thing I'll watch out for when he takes over a bigger club.
Two days ago everyone loved Rose, their league results were a bit disappointing, but people were understanding, because of their great CL campaign, tight schedule and thin squad.
But with today's loss top 4 is basically gone unless Dortmund implode. From what I read between the lines Rose does have a release clause in his contract and refuses to make any kind of commitment to Gladbach. If you browse their forum you already see lots of fans who are angry at the situation and disappointed with Rose (on a human level). Fans not being able to express themselves in the stands takes away the immediate edge, but I don't think it'll be long before the press asks questions like "is his head still in Gladbach?".
Yeah. They aren't very good at dominating possession and controlling games with the ball. Playing direct is how they find space. That's easily the biggest question mark about Rose. On the other hand that, too, can be at least partially put down to the players he's got as his disposal and Kloppwasn't held back too badly by a similar deficit either. It's the first thing I'll watch out for when he takes over a bigger club.
Klopp also had players like Nuri Sahin and Ilkay Gundogan, both of whom were good playmakers and had good control of the midfield. Rose at least has Neuhaus, but beyond him, he doesn't have anyone else. I don't see Benes as that kind of a midfielder and see him as more of an AM playing deeper than he should be.
Still, I'm expecting him to grow as a head coach and introduce a more patient down the line just like Klopp has. Same goes for Nagelsmann and Marsch, to be fair.
Frankfurt-Mönchengladbach has gotten more interesting with a penalty awarded to the latter side and scored by Stindl. 6 minutes of added time + Frankfurt being down to 10 men give Mönchengladbach some added hope.
3-3 now!
3-3. What an enjoyable game. Stindl hattrick.
Ended 3-3 draw. Smashing game.
Oh my God, what an end to the Frankfurt-Monchengladbach match!
One of those draws that will feel so much better for one side than the other
And Sociedad.
One of the best matches i have seen this season involved Mönchengladbach, think it was the Leverkusen game?
The equaliser:
The turning point:
The turning point:
Yeah, the 4-3 match with the insane Lazaro scorpion kick
Some proper kneejerk posts in here, talking about Gladbachs loss a bit early there 
Bremen equalize against Dortmund.
Nice Bremen goal.
That would have been a proper own goal by Groß
1-0 Dortmund:
1-1 Bremen:
1-1 Bremen:
Look at how calm Groß was here :
:That would have been a proper own goal by Groß
The commentary cracked me up. "He had all the time in the world, and decided to clear the ball by hitting his own goal post"
What a dumb penalty to give away from that Bremen keeper. Where was he doing there.