German elections on Sunday 23rd February 2025

[Kasper]

By the way, it goes quite under the radar but despite the victory the CDU/CSU performance was really really bad. They're acting in unison (which they had to after that shambolic 2021 campaign) but behind the scenes there's definitely brewing discomfort with Merz and their performance.

Complete Springer campaign in support, a dysfunctional Ampel coalition that was sabotaged by their small bootlicker sibling FDP for 3 years, Ukraine war and energy crisis legacy that the current coalition had to confront, 2 years of regression and inflation, all Ampel parties crash drastically...
... and still they only improve their result by 4% - their second worst in history.

 

[weetee]

By the way, it goes quite under the radar but despite the victory the CDU/CSU performance was really really bad. They're acting in unison (which they had to after that shambolic 2021 campaign) but behind the scenes there's definitely brewing discomfort with Merz and their performance.

Complete Springer campaign in support, a dysfunctional Ampel coalition that was sabotaged by their small bootlicker sibling FDP for 3 years, Ukraine war and energy crisis legacy that the current coalition had to confront, 2 years of regression and inflation, all Ampel parties crash drastically...
... and still they only improve their result by 4% - their second worst in history.

Yep. Not a strong mandate.

Imho it all comes down to: can the democratic parties rise up to those severe problems we're facing and find constructive ways to form solid compromises (the way it should be in a democracy)? The last coalition is a warning example and every party involved lost big time. I'm optimistic but AFD will become more extreme and push their agenda hard (finally too extreme?).

On a personal level, it's a big victory for Merz. He was never seen as the main man in the CDU itself, got totally pushed aside for a long period, and finally made it. I say it's a very good thing they still made such weak victory all things considered so they're kept in check.

 

[Zehner]

Fair enough, thanks for sharing. The bolded part is probably true for every political party in Belgium and they still get their usual votes in the regions they historically dominate, so perhaps that's why I don't really find it "undemocratic" per se

I mean, in the end there is no clear definition of what "undemocratic" means and how high you set the bar. Both CDU and CSU in my opinion have very concerning relationships with the economy. They collect by far the highest reportable donations (donations > 35.000€), they have a rich and very recent history of nepotism scandals (some protagonists might even become ministers again), they disguise tax programmes for the richest of the rich as tax beenfits for the middle class and use misinformation campaigns to deflect the blame. Is that still an even playing field?

 

[VorZakone]

The overall story is of young Germans rejecting the established centre-right and centre-left, but while young men are shifting to both populist flanks, young women are shifting overwhelmingly to the populist left.

 

[matherto]

They also won Gelsenkirchen and Kaiserslautern, which is just crazy

Ex-Mining cities aren’t they?

Hard working class from left behind industries falling for the far right ‘everyone else is the problem’ schtick?

 

[thisisnottaken1]

I said this in one of the US politics threads, but as an early 30s man it saddens me that we have lost the next generation of men to the likes of Musk, Tate and the far right.

I have no idea how to we are supposed to go about addressing this, if there even is a way for it to be addressed.

As a man who is turning 26 tomorrow I feel the same.

 

[Redplane]

As a man who is turning 26 tomorrow I feel the same.

There must be many ways this can be addressed with some good studies being done.

Have people like Batista call young men pussies if they think they can't compete with women without getting some kind of self anointed privilege.

On a slightly more serious note tho: I haven't seen many studies yet to show what the ethnic breakdown is among those men.

I feel like those with a traditional mindset more prevalent in i.e. certain Central and south American, Middle Eastern, African and certain Asian (i.e. India and Pakistan) countries and are first, second or maybe even third generation are far more likely to subscribe to conservative beliefs than others. Look at some of the Muslim and Latino vote here in the US. I can imagine some of the more recent immigrant populations in Europe may swing a similar way - despite the rhetoric about immigration. In fact, immigration is probably another one they may like bc they "already have theirs". At least the Republicans here very much picked up on playing into the thoughts of everyone they don't like, while Dems dropped the ball appealing to said groups. There is a ton of irony in that of course.

 

[stefan92]

There must be many ways this can be addressed with some good studies being done.

Have people like Batista call young men pussies if they think they can't compete with women without getting some kind of self anointed privilege.

On a slightly more serious note tho: I haven't seen many studies yet to show what the ethnic breakdown is among those men.

I feel like those with a traditional mindset more prevalent in i.e. certain Central and south American, Middle Eastern, African and certain Asian (i.e. India and Pakistan) countries and are first, second or maybe even third generation are far more likely to subscribe to conservative beliefs than others. Look at some of the Muslim and Latino vote here in the US. I can imagine some of the more recent immigrant populations in Europe may swing a similar way - despite the rhetoric about immigration. In fact, immigration is probably another one they may like bc they "already have theirs". At least the Republicans here very much picked up on playing into the thoughts of everyone they don't like, while Dems dropped the ball appealing to said groups. There is a ton of irony in that of course.

The "most Nazi" people I know here in Germany are actually well integrated migrants (or their children) who are angry that they moved here to get away from a certain culture and now see that culture being imported into Germany.

 

[RedSky]

Thank feck for German women.

 

[Scandi Red]

Thank feck for German women.

Thank feck for women in general. Wherever there is a far right political wave it's mostly because of men. And contrary to popular belief these are not just 50 year old truck drivers who have never even spoken to a foreigner. These are also largely young men who should know better.

Men and women are equally dumb, but at least the dumb women don't fall head first into fascism (for the most part).

 

[Zehner]

I said this in one of the US politics threads, but as an early 30s man it saddens me that we have lost the next generation of men to the likes of Musk, Tate and the far right.

I have no idea how to we are supposed to go about addressing this, if there even is a way for it to be addressed.

Connecting I'd say. The worst thing would be to ridicule them because it will only back them into a corner and make it harder to turn them around. But let's be real, it will be immensely difficult to maintain democratic values in our society as long as we allow billionaires to continue brainwashing our population over the media they bought. Enough has been said about Social Media but they also control traditional news outlets.

BILD, the biggest yellow press newspaper in Germany, for instance ran a clear campaign against Habeck and the Greens during this election. Interestingly enough, the company behind BILD (Axel Springer) was bought by the private equity company KKR in 2020. KKR has an investment portfolio exceeding $500 bn, 78% of which in fossil fuels industries. What a coincidence that is, isn't it?

You can see the consequences of this even in this thread. In 2024, Germany ran on 60% renewable energy, that's up from 41% in 2021 before the Ukraine war started (and at that point in time, its share was actually falling). Here's an overview of the energy production prices right now according to Fraunhofer:

Energy	Renewables	Gas	Coal	Nuclear
Production costs / Mwh	4 - 14 cts	20 - 36 cts	15 - 29 cts	14 - 49 cts

Yet 90% of people over here believe renewables are more expensive than nuclear. What are you supposed to do against such misinformation campaigns?

 

[Zehner]

There must be many ways this can be addressed with some good studies being done.

Maybe progressives should run their own bot networks

 

[G3079]

Man, am I looking forward to the next years... one of the first things Merz made headlines for past the election is that he wants to invite Netanyahu to Germany, ignoring international law and his open warrant at The Hague. I wish I could pretend to be surprised but it's not the first time he said something going against national or international law or our constitution. And racist authoritarian right wing garbage loves their own company, after all.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Man, am I looking forward to the next years... one of the first things Merz made headlines for past the election is that he wants to invite Netanyahu to Germany, ignoring international law and his open warrant at The Hague. I wish I could pretend to be surprised but it's not the first time he said something going against national or international law or our constitution. And racist authoritarian right wing garbage loves their own company, after all.

My female coworker had a huge rant today about how she hates Merz. He's apparently said some stuff against women and also she doesn't trust him to not form an alliance with AfD if SPD says something that annoys him.

 

[stefan92]

My female coworker had a huge rant today about how she hates Merz. He's apparently said some stuff against women and also she doesn't trust him to not form an alliance with AfD if SPD says something that annoys him.

That's definitely possible. Yesterday in some talk round Jens Spahn (CDU) was quite clear in his answer to someone from the SPD who claimed that there is no alternative to working together with the SPD for the CDU: "It's always the question what is the better alternative?"

"No alternatives" kind of was Merkel's mantra which more or mess caused the founding of the AfD. And I don't think the CDU wants to repeat her mistake.

 

[G3079]

My female coworker had a huge rant today about how she hates Merz. He's apparently said some stuff against women and also she doesn't trust him to not form an alliance with AfD if SPD says something that annoys him.

I'd agree with your coworker there, I can certainly see him doing that. On a personal level he might even prefer them over the SPD, under him the CDU are moving further to the right than they already were and I do not think he has learned his lesson that his fishing for AfD voters has cost them a lot more centrist voters than it gained them from the right. Hell, it might not even have been a conscious decision but just once again his xenophobia and racism slipping out, like when he called Ukrainian refugees "social tourists" or immigrant and refugee children "little pashas".
For anything but the EU, Ukraine and Russia policies, AfD might well be closer to his own heart.

 

[Revan]

Connecting I'd say. The worst thing would be to ridicule them because it will only back them into a corner and make it harder to turn them around. But let's be real, it will be immensely difficult to maintain democratic values in our society as long as we allow billionaires to continue brainwashing our population over the media they bought. Enough has been said about Social Media but they also control traditional news outlets.

BILD, the biggest yellow press newspaper in Germany, for instance ran a clear campaign against Habeck and the Greens during this election. Interestingly enough, the company behind BILD (Axel Springer) was bought by the private equity company KKR in 2020. KKR has an investment portfolio exceeding $500 bn, 78% of which in fossil fuels industries. What a coincidence that is, isn't it?

You can see the consequences of this even in this thread. In 2024, Germany ran on 60% renewable energy, that's up from 41% in 2021 before the Ukraine war started (and at that point in time, its share was actually falling). Here's an overview of the energy production prices right now according to Fraunhofer:

Energy	Renewables	Gas	Coal	Nuclear
Production costs / Mwh	4 - 14 cts	20 - 36 cts	15 - 29 cts	14 - 49 cts

Yet 90% of people over here believe renewables are more expensive than nuclear. What are you supposed to do against such misinformation campaigns?

I do not think anyone here is suggesting for nuclear to replace renewables, more like to complement it. That 40% that is not renewable, would be better to be nuclear than oil, gas and coal (of course, not all of it can be considering that fossil energy is still needed for gars, and also industry).

Until we can make the energy 100% renewable, better to use nuclear than fossil for the part that does not come from the renewables.

 

[HTG]

I do not think anyone here is suggesting for nuclear to replace renewables, more like to complement it. That 40% that is not renewable, would be better to be nuclear than oil, gas and coal (of course, not all of it can be considering that fossil energy is still needed for gars, and also industry).

Until we can make the energy 100% renewable, better to use nuclear than fossil for the part that does not come from the renewables.

It doesn't make sense, financially. Nuclear energy is extremely expensive and needs to be subsidized like crazy. Other technologies are cheaper. The only realistic option would have been to try and keep the current power plants operational for a few more years. That's about it. Otherwise, nuclear energy makes no sense for Germany.

 

[Revan]

It doesn't make sense, financially. Nuclear energy is extremely expensive and needs to be subsidized like crazy. Other technologies are cheaper. The only realistic option would have been to try and keep the current power plants operational for a few more years. That's about it. Otherwise, nuclear energy makes no sense for Germany.

Again, not saying that Germany should have built more nuclear plants. Clearly, the renewables seem to be more economically viable, and they do not cause nuclear waste. And yes, Germany has been doing a very good job at renewables if true that 60% of energy comes from that.

My point is that closing down nuclear plants while still using lots of fossil energy was to a very degree, not a smart decision, but more a populist one coming after the fearmongering of Fukushima.

 

[HTG]

Again, not saying that Germany should have built more nuclear plants. Clearly, the renewables seem to be more economically viable, and they do not cause nuclear waste. And yes, Germany has been doing a very good job at renewables if true that 60% of energy comes from that.

My point is that closing down nuclear plants while still using lots of fossil energy was to a very degree, not a smart decision, but more a populist one coming after the fearmongering of Fukushima.

I agree we might have been better off if we had kept the existing plants running a bit longer, but that's it. Otherwise, the idea that us leaving nuclear energy for good is nothing but a populist take. It didn't make sense, financially. We can't afford to burden our industry with even higher energy prices.

The actual mistakes we made in regards to energy, was the shameless act of corruption that led to Nordstream. The way Merkel and Schröder fecked us there still disgusts me to this day. We could have made deals with reliable partners like Norway. But no, these ghouls sold us out to Russia.

 

[hasanejaz88]

I'd agree with your coworker there, I can certainly see him doing that. On a personal level he might even prefer them over the SPD, under him the CDU are moving further to the right than they already were and I do not think he has learned his lesson that his fishing for AfD voters has cost them a lot more centrist voters than it gained them from the right. Hell, it might not even have been a conscious decision but just once again his xenophobia and racism slipping out, like when he called Ukrainian refugees "social tourists" or immigrant and refugee children "little pashas".
For anything but the EU, Ukraine and Russia policies, AfD might well be closer to his own heart.

Certainly don't see any hope of things getting better in the long run as well. Some polls before the election suggested that AfD is the most popular party for under 25's, while they were a distant third for over 60s. AfD's share will only rise in the future and it'll be out of other parties hands whether you make an alliance or not.

 

[Pintu]

That's definitely possible. Yesterday in some talk round Jens Spahn (CDU) was quite clear in his answer to someone from the SPD who claimed that there is no alternative to working together with the SPD for the CDU: "It's always the question what is the better alternative?"

"No alternatives" kind of was Merkel's mantra which more or mess caused the founding of the AfD. And I don't think the CDU wants to repeat her mistake.

SPD leaders bear a huge responsibility there… They have to understand they lost and be constructive in the government formation process and specially afterwards, and not become what FDP was to them in the Ampel. Otherwise they risk pushing more CDU voters towards accepting some kind of cooperation with AFD.

 

[KirkDuyt]

So, next step is Trump and Elon threatening sanctions and tariffs unless Germany decide to be governed by AFD?

 

[berbatrick]

I feel like those with a traditional mindset more prevalent in i.e. certain Central and south American, Middle Eastern, African and certain Asian (i.e. India and Pakistan) countries and are first, second or maybe even third generation are far more likely to subscribe to conservative beliefs than others. Look at some of the Muslim and Latino vote here in the US. I can imagine some of the more recent immigrant populations in Europe may swing a similar way - despite the rhetoric about immigration. In fact, immigration is probably another one they may like bc they "already have theirs". At least the Republicans here very much picked up on playing into the thoughts of everyone they don't like, while Dems dropped the ball appealing to said groups. There is a ton of irony in that of course.

Worth noting that the voting gender gap within India isn't as pronounced. Also, with increasing political freedom for women within India, they have started to use their secret ballot as actually secret from their husbands. This has led to women in some states voting Right, on security or religious identity grounds, while their male relatives retain caste identity voting (which is often a vote for parties that ally against the Right). On the other hand, in some other states, women vote for parties with more welfare schemes, which could be from the right, center, or left.

But in general the female left-male right divide isn't so straightforward here, if it exists at all. I wouldn't be surprised if migration changes that though.

e- From the most recent election:

So narrow that any gap they are reporting could very well be an issue of sampling.
e again - the actual result between NDA (BJP+allies) and INDIA (Congress+allies) was 43% - 40%, so it seems this poll underestimated the anti-Right vote by about 5%. Adding these numbers up, the result would have been 43%-35%. Still not sure if there would be a gender gap within that.

 

[Sweet Square]

 

[Zehner]

I do not think anyone here is suggesting for nuclear to replace renewables, more like to complement it. That 40% that is not renewable, would be better to be nuclear than oil, gas and coal (of course, not all of it can be considering that fossil energy is still needed for gars, and also industry).

Until we can make the energy 100% renewable, better to use nuclear than fossil for the part that does not come from the renewables.

Nuclear plants are not suited to complement renewable because the profuctivity of renewables varies greatly. That means you need a flexible solution to cover for less productive days. Nuclear power has a stable energy output, you can't switch it off and you can't scale it up if need be.

 

[Zehner]

Again, not saying that Germany should have built more nuclear plants. Clearly, the renewables seem to be more economically viable, and they do not cause nuclear waste. And yes, Germany has been doing a very good job at renewables if true that 60% of energy comes from that.

My point is that closing down nuclear plants while still using lots of fossil energy was to a very degree, not a smart decision, but more a populist one coming after the fearmongering of Fukushima.

Might be true, might not be true but discussing it won't help because the past is the past. I mean, there have been many grave mistakes in the past but they aren't debated either. Nobody was talking about Nordstream during the election, why are we discussing nuclear and not that?