Geovany Quenda | Ornstein: Chelsea agree 7-year deal with option of a further year. Will go to Chelsea in 2026.

[JE-365]

Dalot shouldn’t be starting, and Mazraoui should be primarily playing at RCB. I don’t know how anyone could watch the difference Dorgu has made on the left and conclude that we should settle for Dalot or Maz on the right.

That’s my point isn’t it? Dorgu has made the difference and hence why we need another LWB because we cannot afford to rely in Dorgu alone in that LWB role. Therefore, we need to find another LWB with the same profile to prepare when Dorgu is injured or suspended or needs rest.

To get the best out of this current squad, we should do what we have done recently by playing inverted right wingback because we have Garnacho or Amad who can provide width on the right hand side playing the wide forward role.

Attacking transition:
GK
RCB - CB - LCB
Inverted RWB - Deep-playmaker - box-to-box
Wide forward - Inside forward - LWB
Striker

Defensive transition:
GK
Inverted RWB - RCB - CB - LCB - LWB
Deep-playmaker - box-to-box
Wide forward - Inside forward
Striker

 

[Zumbi]

It's also absolutely true.

Nuance is a word used far too much here. It's football. It's not that complicated.

Look at the difference having a left footed player at LWB has made already.

We don't want our RWB and right sided 10(Amad) both coming inside. That's not nuance. It's being silly.

Whether you believe it or not, football is a lot more nuanced than “left footed player play in left, right footed player play on right”. That’s why tactically astute managers with precise but intricate systems of play are both successful and in such demand.

Is it only the fact that Dorgu is left footed that made a difference, or is it also the fact that he is fast, physical, makes direct runs and has stamina to get up and down all match? It’s incredibly naive to think it’s just the former.

It’s equally naive to think two left footers can’t work on the right when that’s exactly how Amorim had the system working at Sporting, beating the likes of City in the process. Despite being left footed, Amad and Quenda both have the ability to stay wide, and both have the ability to beat a player on the outside. There are a lot more important variables to how players play than which foot they kick the ball with.

 

[Zumbi]

That’s my point isn’t it? Dorgu has made the difference and hence why we need another LWB because we cannot afford to rely in Dorgu alone in that LWB role. Therefore, we need to find another LWB with the same profile to prepare when Dorgu is injured or suspended or needs rest.

To get the best out of this current squad, we should do what we have done recently by playing inverted right wingback because we have Garnacho or Amad who can provide width on the right hand side playing the wide forward role.

Attacking transition:
GK
RCB - CB - LCB
Inverted RWB - Deep-playmaker - box-to-box
Wide forward - Inside forward - LWB
Striker

Defensive transition:
GK
Inverted RWB - RCB - CB - LCB - LWB
Deep-playmaker - box-to-box
Wide forward - Inside forward
Striker

I understand what you’re saying, I just don’t think it makes sense, and I don’t think think it’s what Amorim is ultimately aiming for with his system.

I don’t think playing Dalot or Mazraoui as an inverted RWB is how we get the best out of Amorim’s system, because both players are too limited in attack. I could see it maybe being an ok option when setting up more defensively against the very top teams, but I think in most games we’d get far more value having a more attacking RWB with pace and physicality with Amad (or Garnacho/a new right 10) alongside them.

Sure, in an ideal world I would like a second LWB of the same ilk as back up, but Dorgu making such a difference on the left doesn’t for a second make me think we need a back up for him over getting a player with a similar profile for the right. I honestly don’t know how anyone can watch us play and look at a player like Dalot and think yep, don’t need an upgrade there, that side’s sorted. We need to prioritise starters and for me that’s a new RWB and it’s a bonus of they’re versatile to also play LWB which gives us the option of them playing left and Amad playing right if Dorgu is out.

 

[Marwood]

Whether you believe it or not, football is a lot more nuanced than “left footed player play in left, right footed player play on right”. That’s why tactically astute managers with precise but intricate systems of play are both successful and in such demand.

Is it only the fact that Dorgu is left footed that made a difference, or is it also the fact that he is fast, physical, makes direct runs and has stamina to get up and down all match? It’s incredibly naive to think it’s just the former.

It’s equally naive to think two left footers can’t work on the right when that’s exactly how Amorim had the system working at Sporting, beating the likes of City in the process. Despite being left footed, Amad and Quenda both have the ability to stay wide, and both have the ability to beat a player on the outside. There are a lot more important variables to how players play than which foot they kick the ball with.

You're summarising my argument in an inaccurate fashion here. Nowhere have I said only being right or left footed matters. Of course other attributes also count. Goes without saying.

Nor am I saying this applies to every position on the pitch. This is specifically the wing back positions.

Simple question. Why have we signed a left footed player to play left wing back? Or is that just a coincidence.

 

[ron86]

Paying Frimpong's £33m release clause and getting the best RWB around is arguably better than buying any good number 10 for twice the fee.

Good player but I imagine he won't be short of suiters for his release clause, we're not dining at the top table at the moment and may have to be creative in the market

 

[aeh1991]

You can discuss it further, but I am glad we missed out on a player who obviously sees himself as a winger, not a wing back, if we wanna keep Amorim long term.

 

[Sly]

I don’t for the life of me understand the Essugo deal. Why would he move to Chelsea considering their army of midfielders, plus they even have Reece James as an option there. I was quite high on Essugo and wanted us to have a look at him as a Ugarte backup, he will get lost at Chelsea and if he waited, he would’ve had more offers on the table. Barca, Madrid and others have all been looking at him given his performances this season. This also seems like an undersell from Sporting’s side, you guys surely could’ve got more for him.

Completely agree. We are going to regret this deal. I was also against selling Mateus Fernandes to Southampton for 15 millions. He will be worth more and it wouldn't surprise me if Southampton sells him for double that value in a couple of years. He is now an established premier league midfielder and Sporting is playing a CB as midfielder and had to play with 17 and 18 year olds in the league and champions league due to Amorim stubborn nature of only having 3 CM/DM midfielders for a full season.

 

[Zumbi]

You're summarising my argument in an inaccurate fashion here. Nowhere have I said only being right or left footed matters. Of course other attributes also count. Goes without saying.

Nor am I saying this applies to every position on the pitch. This is specifically the wing back positions.

Simple question. Why have we signed a left footed player to play left wing back? Or is that just a coincidence.

You did imply that by saying “Look at the difference having a left footed player at LWB has made already”. You didn’t think to mention any of the other attributes which were so obviously making more of a difference on that side (his physicality, speed, directness, stamina) - I had to make that point.

Amorim likes to play a left footed LWB and a left footed RWB. Again - try looking at how he actually set up with Sporting.

 

[VP89]

You did imply that by saying “Look at the difference having a left footed player at LWB has made already”. You didn’t think to mention any of the other attributes which were so obviously making more of a difference on that side (his physicality, speed, directness, stamina) - I had to make that point.

Amorim likes to play a left footed LWB and a left footed RWB. Again - try looking at how he actually set up with Sporting.

Who were the full backs before Quenda? Wasn't it Mendes and Porro?

 

[Top_Bins]

Seems like a really short-sighted move by the lad. Even if he intends to use his next club as a stepping stone move then surely he would have picked guaranteed playing time in a system he flourishes in, under a manager who he knows believes in him. He could have even waited to see if we win the Europa and choose then.

 

[Zumbi]

Who were the full backs before Quenda? Wasn't it Mendes and Porro?

Yep, then Quenda came through and he chose to play him mostly on the right, despite him being left footed and despite playing a left footed player at right 10. Hence my argument that a player’s attributes matter more than just which his stronger foot is, that both right and left footers can work in that position in Amorim’s system and still operate within a broadly balanced unit, and therefore we should not be wedded to the misguided notion that only a right footed player will work there, as some posters here keep insisting.

 

[VP89]

Yep, then Quenda came through and he chose to play him mostly on the right, despite him being left footed and despite playing a left footed player at right 10. Hence my argument that a player’s attributes matter more than just which his stronger foot is, that both right and left footers can work in that position in Amorim’s system and still operate within a broadly balanced unit, and therefore we should not be wedded to the misguided notion that only a right footed player will work there, as some posters here keep insisting.

OK, so when you say Amorim likes to play a right footer at left wingback and the opposite at right wingback, how many seasons has he done this during his time at Sporting?

 

[Marwood]

You did imply that by saying “Look at the difference having a left footed player at LWB has made already”. You didn’t think to mention any of the other attributes which were so obviously making more of a difference on that side (his physicality, speed, directness, stamina) - I had to make that point.

Amorim likes to play a left footed LWB and a left footed RWB. Again - try looking at how he actually set up with Sporting.

Because it has. I thought it was too obvious to bother mentioning that his athleticism has also helped.

How many games under Amorim did Quenda play RWB? 20? And from that you've decided it's locked in, our RWB will be left footed.

But how many games did he play a right footed player there? I'm guessing a lot more.

Again though why have we signed a left footed player to play LWB? Have a go at answering that.

Why bother doing that when the nuance you've spotted means it's not necessary.

 

[Zumbi]

OK, so when you say Amorim likes to play a right footer at left wingback and the opposite at right wingback, how many seasons has he done this during his time at Sporting?

I’m not going to start totting up the exact number of games that happened - you are welcome to if you think it will serve any purpose. My point stands - he obviously liked playing Quenda at RWB, because he played him there quite a lot. That doesn’t mean he hasn’t also chosen to play right footers there at various points.

 

[VP89]

I’m not going to start totting up the exact number of games that happened - you are welcome to if you think it will serve any purpose. My point stands - he obviously liked playing Quenda at RWB, because he played him there quite a lot. That doesn’t mean he hasn’t also chosen to play right footers there at various points.

Your point was that he likes to put a a left footer at RWB and a right footer at LWB.

Quenda is a special case, probably because he is a special player with certain attributes that fit the system on the fight. But if Amorim has played with left footers on the left and right footers on the right in every other season, it's quite clear what his preference tends to be.

The decision with Quenda just shows amorim adaptable to players, nothing else.

 

[Zumbi]

Because it has. I thought it was too obvious to bother mentioning that his athleticism has also helped.

How many games under Amorim did Quenda play RWB? 20? And from that you've decided it's locked in, our RWB will be left footed.

But how many games did he play a right footed player there? I'm guessing a lot more.

Again though why have we signed a left footed player to play LWB? Have a go at answering that.

Why bother doing that when the nuance you've spotted means it's not necessary.

No, I haven’t. I’ve actually made the opposite point - that both a left or a right footer can work there. You’re the one that’s tried arguing it should be a right footer on the right, and I said that as overly simplistic. Remember?

Try rereading my posts. This is from the previous page:

I’m not saying a left footed RWB has to be used for the system to work, just that a left footed RWB can and has worked in that system just as well. And I said that specifically in response to someone saying we should only play a right footer there. Sure, that’s an option, but the evidence suggests that doesn’t have to be the case for the system to work incredibly well.

If you can’t understand that I honestly don’t know how to help you.

 

[didz]

I’m not going to start totting up the exact number of games that happened - you are welcome to if you think it will serve any purpose. My point stands - he obviously liked playing Quenda at RWB, because he played him there quite a lot. That doesn’t mean he hasn’t also chosen to play right footers there at various points.

To be fair he asked for seasons not games. I trust you can count to one?

 

[Zumbi]

Your point was that he likes to put a a left footer at RWB and a right footer at LWB.

Quenda is a special case, probably because he is a special player with certain attributes that fit the system on the fight. But if Amorim has played with left footers on the left and right footers on the right in every other season, it's quite clear what his preference tends to be.

The decision with Quenda just shows amorim adaptable to players, nothing else.

Try rereading what I wrote. Because it wasn’t that.

Anyway, you seem to have found the point. As I have been arguing the whole time, a player’s specific attributes outweigh what their preferred foot is, and as both can work in Amorim’s system, the assumption that our RWB has to be right footed is an ill founded one.

 

[VP89]

Try rereading what I wrote. Because it wasn’t that.

Sorry, you said he likes a left footed left wingback and a left footed right wingback? Still not generally the case is it?

 

[Zumbi]

To be fair he asked for seasons not games. I trust you can count to one?

And that question is what you call a false premise, because players aren’t locked in to one single position for one entire season. That’s not how it works.

 

[Zumbi]

Sorry, you said he likes a left footed left wingback and a left footed right wingback? Still not generally the case is it?

I did not say he exclusively uses a left footed LWB and a right footed RWB. I have admitted he uses both, and I have argued for why both can work. What is it exactly you disagree with there?

 

[VP89]

I did not say he exclusively uses a left footed LWB and a right footed RWB. I have admitted he uses both, and I have argued for why both can work. What is it exactly you disagree with there?

Nothing huge, just that he generally likes to use it in the manner you said. I think he did this for Quenda specifically, who he inherited through the academy, rather than preference system design.

My view is hel want to sign players for a preferred model given he has a blank slate at United, which will be a left footer at LWB and a right footer at RWB.

Of course I could be wrong, we are just theorising. He could for example put Amad at RWB.

I thought the consistent preference appears to be an attacker on one wingback and a more conservative outlook on the other.

 

[aeh1991]

You did imply that by saying “Look at the difference having a left footed player at LWB has made already”. You didn’t think to mention any of the other attributes which were so obviously making more of a difference on that side (his physicality, speed, directness, stamina) - I had to make that point.

Amorim likes to play a left footed LWB and a left footed RWB. Again - try looking at how he actually set up with Sporting.

This is a generalization of a manager whose career is still pretty young. He just thought that Quenda fits the RWB role well so he played him there, no need to overanalyze it. If he likes a right-footed RWB, he will play him there.

 

[Zumbi]

Nothing huge, just that he generally likes to use it in the manner you said. I think he did this for Quenda specifically, who he inherited through the academy, rather than preference system design.

My view is hel want to sign players for a preferred model given he has a blank slate at United, which will be a left footer at LWB and a right footer at RWB.

Of course I could be wrong, we are just theorising. He could for example put Amad at RWB.

I thought the consistent preference appears to be an attacker on one wingback and a more conservative outlook on the other.

Now I’m really confused about whether you actually disagree with me or not!

I suspect that Amorim’s approach will actually be quite a lot more flexible than that, and that he’ll be looking for wide players who are versatile and can play either side, and how we line up will depend on not just form and fitness but the opposition. He’s already said he likes that Dorgu can play either side, and although we’ve only see him on the right once, I suspect we’ll see it again in the future once we have more options available.

Direct quotes from Amorim regarding how he sees his wide players:

“He played a lot of times for Lecce on the right and the left. That’s one of the characteristics that we pay a lot of attention to.”

“We have to have wingers who can play both sides like (Diogo) Dalot. It’s a really important thing; sometimes you need a left foot on the right side to come inside and connect in a different way, and sometimes you need a right-footer to connect and cross more balls.”

Links to Roger Fernandes - another left footer who plays on the right but can play both sides - have started popping up since the Quenda Chelsea news broke. It’ll be interesting to see who we actually end up going for. I think a lower profile transfer like that is actually a lot more likely than a more established player like Frimpong, largely because of finances and our likely lack of CL football, but also because of Amorim’s history of rebuilding with younger, lesser known players who fit the profile he’s looking for.

 

[Zumbi]

This is a generalization of a manager whose career is still pretty young. He just thought that Quenda fits the RWB role well so he played him there, no need to overanalyze it. If he likes a right-footed RWB, he will play him there.

Again, not sure what you’re arguing here. I’ve explicitly said that both right and left footers can play that role under Amorim. The Quenda example was a just an evidence based rebuttal to those saying the RWB has to be right footed - which is clearly not the case.

 

[ColvaleGoa]

Is there a link for this?

It wasn't any top tier Journos. Just something that popped up on my feed.

 

[ColvaleGoa]

I saw that tweet. I get the feeling that the account isn't all that reliable.

Yup..hence I didn't embed the tweet

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Is this Amorim's Frenkie De Jong?

 

[Dan_F]

We won’t be committing to transfers without knowing our budget for next year.

 

[Houdini]

gutted

 

[Marwood]

Again, not sure what you’re arguing here. I’ve explicitly said that both right and left footers can play that role under Amorim. The Quenda example was a just an evidence based rebuttal to those saying the RWB has to be right footed - which is clearly not the case.

No you said Amorim likes left footed player at right wing back. That's more than saying it doesn't matter.

But in anycase it's simple. Why complicate football. We don't need to start talking about nuance.

We've got a left footed player at left wingback for a reason. It makes sense.

The same should go for the right wing back.

 

[Zumbi]

No you said Amorim likes left footed player at right wing back. That's more than saying it doesn't matter.

But in anycase it's simple. Why complicate football. We don't need to start talking about nuance.

We've got a left footed player at left wingback for a reason. It makes sense.

The same should go for the right wing back.

I’ve said both, because both are true. They are not mutually exclusive. Why do you think they are?

Again - try rereading what I wrote. This will be the second time I’ve quoted what I’ve previously said back at you because you insist on ignoring it to belabour a point:

I’m not saying a left footed RWB has to be used for the system to work, just that a left footed RWB can and has worked in that system just as well. And I said that specifically in response to someone saying we should only play a right footer there. Sure, that’s an option, but the evidence suggests that doesn’t have to be the case for the system to work incredibly well.

Amorim himself has explicitly touted the benefits of playing a left footer wide on the right in his system because of the way it can affect the play. You thinking only a right footer should play on the right because it’s “simple” ignores that fact. Fair enough if you only want a right footer on the right. But you’re not our manager, Amorim is, and we’re playing his system, and talking about players he might buy for his system.

And yet again, I’ve already quoted Amorim’s thoughts on the matter above, but as you somehow keep contriving to miss everything I’ve posted, I’ll repost that again for you too:

“He played a lot of times for Lecce on the right and the left. That’s one of the characteristics that we pay a lot of attention to.”

“We have to have wingers who can play both sides like (Diogo) Dalot. It’s a really important thing; sometimes you need a left foot on the right side to come inside and connect in a different way, and sometimes you need a right-footer to connect and cross more balls.”

These nuances might not exist in your simple world, but they clearly do in Amorim’s.

 

[G-manc]

It feels like we should get used to ending up disappointed with sought after targets.

We can’t afford to get into a bidding war with other clubs and we’ll get quoted high prices whilst being low-balled for our own players as everyone knows we’re desperate.

 

[Foolsgold21]

It feels like we should get used to ending up disappointed with sought after targets.

We can’t afford to get into a bidding war with other clubs and we’ll get quoted high prices whilst being low-balled for our own players as everyone knows we’re desperate.

Probably the case for the next year or 2 - hopefully by then we are back towards the top end of the league and in a better position financially.
Then we can be competing for top top talents

 

[golden_blunder]

Exactly.

But I am curious. How is it that Chelsea can spend silly money — crazy money — and we can’t?

Different ways, for example selling hotels from the Chelsea group, selling club assets.
Also do not forget that Clearlake has an agreement to invest something like 2bn into the club to include transfers. They still have a cash flow.

United simply don’t have a cash flow because of bad financial management. Buying more and more players on ‘tick’ which still require payments every year. Dividends taken out of the club etc. many reasons.

There is really no point comparing them to United

 

[WeePat]

I don’t for the life of me understand the Essugo deal. Why would he move to Chelsea considering their army of midfielders, plus they even have Reece James as an option there. I was quite high on Essugo and wanted us to have a look at him as a Ugarte backup, he will get lost at Chelsea and if he waited, he would’ve had more offers on the table. Barca, Madrid and others have all been looking at him given his performances this season. This also seems like an undersell from Sporting’s side, you guys surely could’ve got more for him.

I don’t even understand it from a Chelsea perspective when we already have Lavia, Caicedo and Santos, who dare are all blue chip talents, one of them borderline world class. It’s an awful logjam, even if we account of Lavia’s injury problems and scarce availability.

 

[redom]

Always disappointing to miss out of big talents, he looked like someone who would've really helped give us another dimension to the attack from that RWB position, just have to hope it's not one we look back on and regret.

I do wonder why Sporting took this deal, seems like if Quenda was willing to stay another year they could've just waited till next summer when he would've had another year of development and potentially raised his price and number of suitors, I don't think they're going to struggle to sell at least a couple of their players for big money this summer so any need for cash should be well and truly met, it's a weird one for me but maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Raoul]

He's playing a blinder today. Almost scored twice in the past 5 minutes.