Wait until you hear some of opinions from the Ukrainian far right.
Geopolitics
- Thread starter Mciahel Goodman
- Start date
Oh sorry, I didn’t realise that Fifa would need to canvas what’s being said by every person at a rally to make a statement on where they stand. I’m glad they did that for the Ukraine/Russian fiasco though.
Speaking as 70,000 Russian troops massed on Ukraine’s borders, sparking global fears of an imminent invasion, Zelensky told the forum that Ukrainians and Jews were bonded by similar historical experiences.
“We know what it’s like not to have our own state,” Zelensky said. “We know what it means to defend one’s own state and land with weapons in hand, at the cost of our own lives. Both Ukrainians and Jews value freedom, and they work equally for the future of our states to become to our liking, and not the future which others want for us. Israel is often an example for Ukraine.”
Not for Hungary, the Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia... and so on.
Your article cites things like life expectancy: well, average Hungarian life expectancy was 69.20 in 1970, 69.33 in 1990 - and then 71.33 in 2000.
Zelensky isn't on the far right of Ukraine politics.
It's hardly canvassing every person to acknowledge that there is deep-seated antisemitism amongst the pro-Palestine movement*. Hamas is openly antisemitic - and to be honest, antisemitic as a term doesn't really do justice to their feelings towards Jewish people, and Fatah have had a history of down-playing the Holocaust and other antisemitic tropes.
Again, not looking to downplay the hate that also sadly exists amongst sects of Israeli society/support all of Israeli's policies actions, but these hostilities are almost certainly at the core as to why you won't find the same levels of condemnation internationally/why this conflict is different to what's now going on in Ukraine.
Sadly, the cultural and religious divisions have only grown between Israeli and Palestine societies - it wasn't always like this, and you have had political parties on both sides look to benefit from it. Right now, you have a Russian army shelling Russian speaking communities because the Russians don't believe they're Russian enough.
* - obviously not everyone affiliated
Surely more of a reason to fight tooth and nail to ensure he remains in a position of influence in Ukraine then.
Ukraine military posts video of far-right neo nazi soliders pouring bullets in pork to shoot at Muslim soliders, calling them orcs
Oh that doesn't represent the majority, don't demonize Ukraine.
Some Palestinian protestors show anti-semitism, after taking into account a centuries long slow occupation of their land from Israel
The whole movement is anti-semetic, you can't take their side.
Sadly, it's not just "some" - it is evidenced through the stances - present and historical - of the two major political parties in Palestinian territories. This is a depressing reality of a conflict that has been going on for decades, pushing communities further and further apart. It's why it's different from what's going on in Ukraine now.
We are posting on a football forum. Him staying in a position of influence will be down to how ''effective''(Literally murdering people) the Russian army is. Also wasn't his approval rating awful before the won, worth saying he was a tv comedian before this.
Anyways if people want to be consistent then if they ''support''(Again we are doing nothing more than posting)the struggle in Ukraine, they should also support the struggle in Palestine. Or people should at least be honest and admit they favour one over the other because this well actually this happened at some protest or this person in a movement said this etc, is so tiresome. And is nothing more than trying get out of what is a very easy answer.
Other way round.
The Russian invasion of Ukraine is a re-run the Soviet sponsored (and military supported) genocidal Arab invasions on Israel.
What nonsense.They're not interested in those conflicts is the TLDR. They have principles we should start actual World War 3 over but how many will even suggest sanctioning Israel or Saudi Arabia for their crimes.
But it’s ok when it’s the anti semitic, far right Azov battalion?
Does this mean we can look forward to another apartheid state? Is there anyone the Ukrainians can oppress in a similar fashion?
I think we should be careful before projecting Israel's war crimes to Ukraine, who haven't done anything of that sort or there is evidence that they will (hopefully the military will leave their Islamaphobia to that tweet).
The purpose of this debate should not be to demonize Ukraine, who are currently suffering, but rather focus on the double sided coverage of Ukraine vs Palestine/Yemen/Afghanistan/Iraq.
No he's not. Please read the MAD doctrine, it basically says both sides will be destroyed because regardless of whoever fires first the other will get a chance to retaliate. However, if nukes are launched from the front door so as to speak then theoretically russia doesn't get a chance to retaliate because moscow get nuked under 3 mins from ukraine. MAD doctrine will not be MAD if nato fires first while it will still be MAD if russia fires first on usa,uk,france,germany.
Anything that goes against the narrative set by the west govts didn't happen. What you are seeing live is a mass hypocrisy on steroids which mind you it hasn't gone unnoticed by non-whites!
This poses a lesson for India, if tomorrow we'd don't tow the western line then we'd be sanctioned too on there whims and fancies. We must promote rupay and upi domestically and then in asia unless we want to be stuck without any financial systems working. Unless we can manufacture the basis essentials we are fecked and our idiot of a pm has been in election mode since he was elected to do any of the actual work.
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This is utter nonsense - I have said consistently that there are numerous actions Israel should be condemned for on here. But I have also outlined why you can't overly simplify and equate the two conflicts - each is defined by the cultural and historical setting they inhabit. Israel is far more powerful than Palestine and goes over and above to assert this. On the other side, Hamas' original 1988 Covenant outlines the justification for the murder of the Jews based almost entirely on the reasoning and arguments used by the Nazi Party. It's been updated since, you think that sentiment doesn't linger?
I don't really want to get too bogged down in this and derail an interesting thread concept, but the fear of what might happen coupled with the despair in what is, is why it's so imperative that both sides get to a position where there is both public and political will to achieve a two state solution. Sadly, poling on the matter suggests this is a pipe-dream at best.
Of course not - but it's also probably not such a wide spread issue seeing as Ukraine elected a Jewish President.
Done.
Come back to me when the pro Russian separatists put down their guns.
I'm not sure why you've made my post all about you. I'm talking about the collective on the caf and wider public sentiment.
If people repeated a tenth of their outrage over the current conflict towards other such human tragedies then great lessons have been learnt. I guarantee that won't happen though.
Israel is taking land and oppressing people, there's no more nuance needed. It should be condemned and they should be sanctioned. We've seen that even boycotts against such behaviour have become unacceptable here in the west never mind massive backlash.
There should be some reflection and great shame felt that people have just dismissed other oppression due to geopolitics and media narratives.
Again, you ignore the bigger picture.
To simply airbrush away that the Palestinian crisis is the direct consequence of failed, Soviet sponsored Arab invasions is absurd.
I'm beginning to wonder if the powers that be in the west are even listening to geopolitical strategists ?
From the west's point of view this antagonizing of russia makes absolutely zero sense and is infact against the wests own self interest. By antagonizing russia the west has essentially thrown russia into the chinese camp, the russians will stay in the chinese camp not voluntarily but out of compulsion. The way i see it the west gains nothing substantial by having ukraine in its fold whilst its a massive loss for russians. So whats the end goal of the west ? I just done see how this helps the west geopolitically. Sanctions on russia will also usher in countries moving away from global financial institutions controlled by the west and creation of a parallel system which would also hit the dollar since its hegemony as a universal currency will be challenged. The chinese must be laughing all the way to the bank!
Russia knows china is rising economically and militarily, it knows china has territorial claims on russian lands and it knows china has initiated border skirmishes with other countries. The west could have easily gotten russia onto its side and all it would have cost the west was a security guarantee to russia in stopping nato's expansion. With russia and india in the western camp, china could have been better "contained" since both countries border it. India has close ties with russia, if russia goes into the chinese camp it will try to persuade india to abandon the west and if the chinese give up all territorial claims on india then that could be a possibility.
You are deluded. Like genuinely deluded.
You're no better than the crazies on Russia Today reasoning away terrible actions. Hopefully the Ukraine focus on such propaganda has made your own propoganda less palatable and we're spared it soon enough.
Surely this hypocrisy is reflected in other parts of the world, no? People are always going to be more deeply effected by events of greater (perceived) proximity? For the UK that largely means continental Europe, the US and the larger English-speaking countries or former countries of the Commonwealth. I won't be disingenuous and pretend that I am not more deeply effected by these recent events because of my Ukrainian family, but the events of this week would still stand alongside 9/11 and the start of the pandemic as the most "historic" in my lifetime. Obviously, others will have different parts of the world that feel "closer" to them based on their family background, languages spoken, etc.
I think there came a point when it was win/win for the West. If Russia backed down, Putin would look weak. If Russia invaded, they might get hit by a horrendous insurgency (will happen imo). China is rising (and so will India) but they all have self-interest at heart. I think it does seem like a mistake from the West to not take them into a common security framework, but the argument there is that Russia is too big a country and will not take orders from US (as every member or vassal state of NATO does). Reading more and more, this has been coming for a long time. Ukraine is vital to Russia and of secondary importance to the US. An East-West split seems inevitable. Russia taking the largely Russian speaking east into its territory and the remnants of some pro-EU western Ukraine government on the other. That would probably work for all sides (insofar as anything will work) if there is a neutrality pact.
The west have different sets of geostrategists. Kissinger one minute, Wolfowitz the next. There are hundreds of them and they won't all agree (if they did, NATO would not have expanded eastward). Also, if the US gets a militarized EU out of this (Germany spending 100 billion on weapons is a massive story that's going under the radar) it will also be a win. Also, the West just banking on India to follow its path and be anti-China is naive. India will set its own goals as it continues to rise economically (its middle class figures are on a leap trajectory over the next decade).
I'm sorry, but there just is. Israel's actions are rightfully open to criticism and actually are exposed more than you suggest - albeit not necessarily through the actors you're alluding to. But I'm not going to start defending them.
Yet to say there's no more nuance needed is to overlook some seriously terrifying elements of an ideology which has genuine links to Nazi philosophy, and sadly has a presence in the political decision making space. Whilst that exists, it's going to be very difficult for Liberal Democracies of the West to out-rightly take a stance.
Agree with this. Didn't Yeltsin ask to join NATO?
Apparently so (but informal, like the declaration Gorbachev received from Bush administration). There were talks about Russia joining some kind of common security framework, even if outside NATO (as again the US suspected, probably rightly, that Russia will not be bossed around) and then Putin apparently tried to revive these talks at the beginning of his tenure (but how far you believe what he says is another thing).
Makes you wonder where we'd be if this had actually happened.
Isn't that the case with most ideas though? It doesn't matter how true they are, it matters how true they are perceived to be, and how widely adopted they are. You can apply that anywhere.
Take climate change as an obvious example: there is no doubt in the science on what's happening and what needs to be done, and there hasn't been for some 20 years (at least on the key points); yet that hasn't stopped influential people from adopting all kinds of counter-theories and act accordingly. (And here I'm talking of people acting upon theories that explained climate change away, such as sun spot nonsense; not people that acknowledge climate change is real but try to downplay it or are just dragging their feet.) And so the alternative theories were 'true', in the sense of their impact on the world.
Same for Huntington - with the addition that I think what he wrote wasn't even new at the time, just a well-put, full articulation (and re-articulation in important ways; it's very 19th century - but you know that stuff much better than me
) of existing ideas - and very common ones at that, in the minds of key military and political people, or others with geopolitical influence. And that makes it circular as well, cause by acting upon this idea, you create or confirm or strenghten geopolitical divisions, allowing you your 'told you so' moment.
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What connotations does it have? Fans of a scottish club waving palestinian flags in a game against an islandic club ?
Yes Israeli flag are systematically waived by the Ajax fans and they are not fined for it. Thankfully. Israel’s flag represent the state of Israel and the population. For me -and clearly for UEFA as well- that flag doesn’t represent the apartheid policies or the countless war crimes committed by their army.
Apart from the pro-apartheid lobby in Europe being very powerfull and capable of linking everything to Hamas, the Palestinian flag should be seen as representative of the Palestinian population. Nothing more.
I'm familiar with MAD and also familiar with Death Hand, which is rumoured to still be operational. Plus every nuclear nation has submarines that will remain operational, ready to launch dozens of nukes in retalliation.
Putin has no compelling justification for his invasion.