If NATO attacks Russia then it's the end of humanity as we know it. So, yes, he is making shit up because he's losing Russian spheres of influence which will reflect badly him.
Geopolitics
- Thread starter Mciahel Goodman
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If NATO attacks Russia then it's the end of humanity as we know it. So, yes, he is making shit up because he's losing Russian spheres of influence which will reflect badly him.
Exactly. I don't want to paint everyone in that thread with the same brush, obviously; but I think there is a clear disconnect between the fascination with war and geopolitics, and the realization of the horrible impact these actually have to people on the ground.
Not sure what this refers to. But what I am thinking: one can perfectly well care deeply about Ukranian suffering in private, but find it more interesting to discuss the historical context on this forum. That makes sense to me. Just as, vice versa, people posting about events going well for Ukraine don't necessarily actually care about the suffering one way or another. I just wouldn't read too much about people's full feelings based on posts on here that don't actually discuss those.
For example, on this follow-up post of yours:
Are you really trying to argue that people posting about the events 'do more' than people posting about context? What is the actual contribution to the Ukraine war of anyone on this conflict, apart from providing information? Which the others also do, just from a different viewpoint? (I am obvioulsy not including those that actually set up charities and donate money. That clearly is a more real contribution.)
I like text stuff, so on that first point: it depends where you're reading. I'm on a computer now, and like his paragraph (good length), and less that every sentence is a paragraph in your post. (I know that's stylistically in vogue now, but I don't like that overall trend either.) I'd probably want something in between when reading on my phone though. But anyway.
Err.. isn’t “sphere of influence” what US, Russia and other countries aim for, to varying degrees? And by having weapons posted in Ukraine, isn’t the US/NATO increasing their “sphere of influence”? So is Putin wrong in trying to reduce that? (Of course he should have done this through diplomacy and not war - before someone accuses me of supporting this war)
This is patently untrue. I think there are two types of discussion that are worth having that are particularly the most impacted by “don’t indulge in ANY topic that distracts us from bashing Russia.”
(1) There is a clear European bent to opinions. That leads to a limited talk and dismissive attitudes towards anything that resembles a non party view. People living in India, Middle East, Latam aren’t exactly directly impacted by this and yet participate in the thread because they’re truly appalled by what’s happening. I myself want a bomb to fall on that ding bats head. But that doesn’t mean that our culturally different POVs on some issues are wrong because we view it as a third party. And yes, it’s related to this war and it’s a discussion worth having. For instance, why is it unfair to attribute this completely toPutin but also discuss dangers of EU arming Ukraine to the teeth. Or how many years of apathy by the west to the mad man including taking advantage of Russian money in western democracies has partly caused this?
(2) there are many secondary war related offshoots that are to be discussed. Many Indians have pointed out of the rough handling at thehands of border police. It’s usually met withderision because it seems hardly relevant to the audience in the larger scheme of things. Labelled as propaganda or whataboutery. But it isn’t. It’s also a fair topic to discuss how refugees including a Americans and others are crossing over and Indians and Africans are struggling.
it may not be important to many people. But it’s important to understand that culturally we are different. What Keeps is common is the love for all, humanity, peace and freedom. And for us, some of these issues are also important since we are looking at “two parties” at play here rather than one.
again, not to say Putin isn’t a dick and isn’t the big bad wolf in this situation. Our values are deeply shaped by the west because of access to tv shows,football and these forums. Can someone else’s position be less black and white and understandably so? Yes. And it’s okay. It should be allowed.
That's true for China and the US but they'll still be concerns about each others forces or bases. Standard geopolitics is your military grows with your economy and land and that countries perceive potential threats rather than immediate ones.
Obviously with Russia their economy doesn't match their perceived importance but they still believe themselves a superpower so would still evaluate threats accordingly. China isn't anymore of a threat to the US than NATO is to Russia at least not significantly.
It's all ridiculous and i don't agree with any such defensive posturing but it's non unusual that Russia would perceive NATO a threat. Their reaction on the other hand.....
I genuinly don't understand what that has to do with the comment you quoted. Of course others are entitled to their point of view. And yes it's horrible when refugees are turned away, regardless of nationality or ethnicity. I completely agree with that.
I'm talking about those who are so blinkered that their first reaction to a Russian invasion of Ukraine is to establish their own moral superiority by belittling anyone they themeselves have decided are hypocrites. Without knowing anything about them, and in most cases knowing feck all in general about most of anything.
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Having worked with lots of staff from Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia (and a few Ukrainians), I have yet to meet one who has anything good to say about living under Russian rule or communism. In fact quite a few would go off on one about how badly they were treated through the years.
so I’m not surprised that they all wanT NATO protection. We’ve all seen in Georgia etc how Russia just does what they want.
so I’ve no sympathy or empathy with Russia at all
so I’m not surprised that they all wanT NATO protection. We’ve all seen in Georgia etc how Russia just does what they want.
so I’ve no sympathy or empathy with Russia at all
Brzezinski said:
Brezezinski's analysis in 1997 covers each point (the Russia as wanting to be imperial power and the Russia which might respond to NATO/EU expansion even if it isn't an expansionist power).
I think the fundamental problem is long-term trust. It's fair to say that NATO as of now is not threatening to Russia. Russia does not have to fear the current NATO. It doesn't have to fear Ukraine either.
In 100 years that situation might be different. Who knows if in 100 years through climate crises the EU-countries find themselves in desperate need for Russian natural resources and are thinking of war to capture it. The Russia of that moment might think "damn we have no buffer anymore".
And before I get jumped: no, I'm not condoning Putin's Russia.
But telling them that Europe is no threat to them so there's no need to worry, they will counter you with "will that be the same in 100 years?". What are you going to say that makes them trust you?
In 100 years that situation might be different. Who knows if in 100 years through climate crises the EU-countries find themselves in desperate need for Russian natural resources and are thinking of war to capture it. The Russia of that moment might think "damn we have no buffer anymore".
And before I get jumped: no, I'm not condoning Putin's Russia.
But telling them that Europe is no threat to them so there's no need to worry, they will counter you with "will that be the same in 100 years?". What are you going to say that makes them trust you?
I've been thinking. What's the opposite end of whataboutism? Nihilism? Absolutism?
Where everything is only possible as black or white.
Where everything is only possible as black or white.
Ukraine is free to decide whose spehere of influence it wants to be a part of and by associating itslf with NATO and the EU its clearly choosing a freer society that what they have experienced in the past with Russia and would experience under Putin's boot today.
Chechens being warmongering dogs doesn't take away from the fact the Azov units are neo Nazis with a history of extreme behaviours. Just because you hate one group doesn't mean the other group gets absolved, that would be like you loving the Al Nusra front because they gave Asad a beating. It doesn't matter on what side the cnuts are, all the cnuts need to be called out.
Russia's problem is that it wants to retake the former Soviet Republics and NATO expanding eastward complicates that. IF these countries become part of NATO they can;t simply send in that tanks and reestablish control as they are trying to do in Ukraine right now.
And those are terrible ideals for some of them to hold but when a group of men with a lust for blood and brutality travel nearly 2000km to engage in a war they have no business being involved in, I'll hold my nose and root for the guys defending their homeland against an unjust invasion and hope they send every single one of those mercenary bastards to hell.
You of all people backing a Neo Nazi unit
in my 35 years of following geopolitical conflicts I have never backed a cnut even if their immediate goals aligned with mine.You of all people backing a Neo Nazi unit
My apologies, I'm not thrilled about this position it's just my dislike of Kadyrov, his cronies and his warlords goes that much deeper. The Azov battalion is far-right with some neo-Nazi elements. Neo-Nazis are extremely distasteful but their power and influence is limited. Kadyrov on the other hand has been frequently accused of involvement in the kidnapping, assassination, and torture of human rights activists, critics, and their relatives, within both Chechnya as well as in other regions of the Russian Federation and abroad, through the political use of police and military forces. He is Chechnya, not just one battalion and has been charged with crimes against humanity.
https://www.them.us/story/chechen-leaders-crimes-against-humanity-over-anti-lgbtq-purge
What I find absolutely shocking about this is that Sky News were showing, and glorying, a session Ukrainians were having on how to make a molotav cocktail, while these same people would defend Israeli soldiers for shooting at Palestinians because they had rocks thrown at them.
It's fecking grotesque the clear racism and insensitivity being shown by news broadcasters during this time. Russia can get fecked, but so can the US and UK.
It's fecking grotesque the clear racism and insensitivity being shown by news broadcasters during this time. Russia can get fecked, but so can the US and UK.
I'm completely aware of the Kadyrovists and their history and tactics, as I said I've been following this geopolitical bullshit over 35 years, you really don't need to preach to the choir concerning the Chechens. Your post above though is too simplistic in that you fail to accept that even though they might not have "power", all they need is acceptance and legitimacy and they'll have the foot in the door that they crave. It doesn't matter who the feck they are fighting, they need to be shunned from the Ukrainian resistance like islamists are shunned from legitimate resistances.
Yea, it's definitely difficult to stomach some of the double standards here.
I recall Ozil making a good statement about the Uighur community when he was still at Arsenal and he was fined and the club had to apologise.
Imagine he made a statement about Ukraine? He'd get praised (and rightfully so). The double standards organisations / footy clubs / media takes leaves a bad taste.
Can you imagine if a team drapped themselves in Palestinan flags during another round of violence? They would get banned from European competition.
Russia is banned from the World Cup for invading Ukraine, while they were allowed to host the fecking Olympics while they were busy invading Afghanistan.
‘Marvel-isation’ is a perfect term.
There will 100% be 'Top 10 moments of the Ukraine war' compilation up on YouTube soon, along with react responses.
Agree with all of this.
The good thing is that people don't tend to give them that acceptance and legitimacy, even if they ignore the bad parts during difficult moments such as this. They are a part of the Ukranian armed forces serving a Jewish President and we can hope that something is done about them once the Russians and their mercenaries are ousted.
Always somebody making up complaining about something, annoys the pish outa me.
Elaborate?
I haven't found anyone who sympathizes with Russia rather folks like me who are frustrated at similar things being ignored across the world when it's other countries being bullied into submission.
If that's whataboutism or not, it doesn't matter to me. It's hypocrisy so I call it out. Also, yes I'm aware there's a time and place but there were a few weird comments on the other thread and in the news about how this is a bigger deal because Ukraine is an actual civilized country. It just, in my opinion, adds to the idea of poorer and less privileged people not feeling pain the same way.
There’s always some prick on Twitter accusing someone of this or that and now you can’t even show opposition to a war without not having enough empathy. It’s ridiculous getting.
I get that but that tweet is completely spot on.
Someone literally said this on American tv.
He chose his words carefully
I don’t think it is, the platform has been very good at getting information across, people want to know what’s going on it’s human nature to be concerned.
There's plenty out there getting giddy when Russians are being killed and treating it like a sport though, which is what he's getting at.
There will always be idiots in society I suppose I’ve just learned to live with that.
There's someone in that other thread who jumped to the defence of literal Nazis on the Ukrainian side with the excuse of "they're at fecking war"... It was at that point I clocked out.
The funny thing is, I work for a huge international development organisation who was one of the first humanitarian organisations to react to the conflict in Ukraine. And today my whole day was focused on developing a proposal that was 6-figures and focused entirely on our emergency response in the country. What I said was not out of apparent 'whataboutery', but genuine concern.
The funny thing is, I work for a huge international development organisation who was one of the first humanitarian organisations to react to the conflict in Ukraine. And today my whole day was focused on developing a proposal that was 6-figures and focused entirely on our emergency response in the country. What I said was not out of apparent 'whataboutery', but genuine concern.
Civilized is a really poor choice of words and I hope that everyone who's used it in reference to this conflict gets some form of comeuppance.
Are biases at play? Absolutely, yes. Ukrainians look like most people in Europe, Canada and the US. They have the same system of government and economies. They could be us. That's why this is hitting harder on the news cycle. Finally, tanks and APCs from one country have not been used on another nation in Europe for a long time. That adds to the shock, despite the terrible events that took place after the collapse of Yuogslavia.
All we can do is hope that the resolution of this conflict leads to more action on other conflicts that are more complex.